Charlotte MLB Team Speculation

[KJHburg]

8 hours ago, kermit said:

FWIW: Atlanta had four major league teams by 1972 (the Flames* arrived in 72, the Braves, Hawks and Falcons all come to Atlanta between 1965 and 1968), and the counties that are now metro Atlanta had roughly 2 million people in them at that time. Our metro population hit two million around 2005. Metro Raleigh-Cary is still not at 2 million, although they only have one ML team.

*While the flames had crappy attendance, the Thrashers tell us that was not the fault of market size, its just that Atlantan’s hate hockey.

 

 

But Raleigh Durham combined  has over 2 million people is wealthier and has more people than Nashville. Their local TV market is like 3 places behind Charlotte tv market and it much bigger than Nashville's.   I agree with @nicholas Raleigh might have the gumption and the momentum to get a Carolinas based MLB team.  Before the Hornets came to town this famous quote a sports writer in Phoenix said "the only franchise Charlotte will ever get it is a McDonalds" and I hope he got to see his Suns play against our Hornets.   Raleigh Durham CMSA is 2.3 M  and they have one major league team.   Many people in the Charlotte area look at Raleigh Durham like those in Atlanta think of Charlotte (small city) but reality is different of course. 

Top 100 Television Markets - Station Index   The Triangle tv market includes Raleigh Durham and Fayetteville.  Basically the entire mid section of the state just like Charlotte's is huge.  

Income 2021 by Median Household income 

Household Income by Metro Area | Houston.org

and just looking and thinking about this is Austin mentioned as a MLB candidate and if so why not?  Could not a state of 30 Million plus have 3 MLB teams?  

But I do think the Carolinas are untapped in the  MLB especially with our growth and 2 metro options. 

In terms of location Raleigh is convenient for a Triad (Greensboro Winston) visitor as it is the east and all of eastern NC looks to Raleigh as their big city.    Even Wilmington is 2 hours away from Raleigh.  I can be in Raleigh is just over 2.5 hours.  

Edited December 27, 2023 by KJHburg

[eastsider]

3 hours ago, cltcane said:

Nashville is essentially guaranteed a team at this point, and my money is on the sleeper candidate, Salt Lake City (which has an ownership group and site ready), to get the other.  MLB could use another team out west, and the last two expansions saw teams from each side of the country added (Miami and Denver in ‘93 and Tampa and Phoenix in ‘98). If Charlotte had a viable ownership group and plan in place, I think we could remain in the mix, but I just don’t see Raleigh being a serious contender, especially with the other expansion team just a state away.  The Triangle is all about college sports with the Hurricanes giving the northern transplants a pro team to cheer for, plus Raleigh doesn’t have the corporate sponsorship base or central location in the Carolinas that Charlotte does that would realistically help them move ahead of Charlotte and leapfrog other contenders.

Bingo, from all I have read Salt Lake City is not a dark horse but a legit front runner. Add the fact that their market doesn't really interfere with any other teams broadcast territory which would make it much easier to bring them in. 

[nicholas]

11 hours ago, kermit said:

FWIW: Atlanta had four major league teams by 1972 (the Flames* arrived in 72, the Braves, Hawks and Falcons all come to Atlanta between 1965 and 1968), and the counties that are now metro Atlanta had roughly 2 million people in them at that time. Our metro population hit two million around 2005. Metro Raleigh-Cary is still not at 2 million, although they only have one ML team.

*While the flames had crappy attendance, the Thrashers tell us that was not the fault of market size, its just that Atlantan’s hate hockey.

Technically yes, the Raleigh-Cary MSA is only around 1.5M, but the Triangle metro population numbers are essentially inaccurate being split up the way they are.  The Raleigh-Durham CSA at 2.1M people is a much more realistic representation of how many residents there actually are.

And I will grant that at this point, the sports landscape has changed so much that it's hard to really compare adding a team now vs 40+ years ago.  Each league seems to be nearing a saturation point, as there are less and less markets that can support a completely new team in any league, AND adding new teams obviously shakes up a tooooon of things from division/conference alignments to potentially diluting the overall experience because more teams competing for the same talent.  I don't think we'll ever see another brand new NFL team (only relocations), and once this round of MLB expansion teams is settled we probably won't see any more new MLB teams either.

All that to say, if NC is gonna get an MLB team, now is the time to make it happen.

4 hours ago, cltcane said:

Nashville is essentially guaranteed a team at this point, and my money is on the sleeper candidate, Salt Lake City (which has an ownership group and site ready), to get the other.  MLB could use another team out west, and the last two expansions saw teams from each side of the country added (Miami and Denver in ‘93 and Tampa and Phoenix in ‘98). If Charlotte had a viable ownership group and plan in place, I think we could remain in the mix, but I just don’t see Raleigh being a serious contender, especially with the other expansion team just a state away.  The Triangle is all about college sports with the Hurricanes giving the northern transplants a pro team to cheer for, plus Raleigh doesn’t have the corporate sponsorship base or central location in the Carolinas that Charlotte does that would realistically help them move ahead of Charlotte and leapfrog other contenders.

I don't think Nashville is a sure bet due to spending insane amounts of money very recently on other professional sports ventures.  Construction is supposed to start in 2024 for the new $2.1B Titans stadium which is fresh on the heels of the $335M Geodis Park for the Nashville SC.  I think it will be a tough sell unless a huge majority is privately funded.

And corporate sponsorship won't be an issue if a Raleigh MLB team is announced...even if a locally-based company didn't wind up being the primary sponsor (similar to Ally with the Charlotte FC), there are too many major companies looking to further expand their presence in the Triangle to not sign on in support.

[kayman]

Just like what happened with the MLS franchise speculation, the same thing will reoccur here with the MLB franchise.  Raleigh has the Durham Bulls and 3 large universities (UNC-Chapel Hill, NC State, and Duke) with very robust college sports programming year-round to keep them occupied and main focus is that region.  The NHL franchise does well but it's about as much the region can draw with the above circumstances already mentioned.

Whereas, Charlotte doesn't have a bunch of large universities instead just 1 with a decent sized and mid-tier conference sports program (UNCC). Charlotte's also a larger DMA that's about to crack the top 20, and has a much larger regional population within its 100 mile radius.   The higher level of disposal income, larger market area, and the fact that the MLB Commissioner has made his point repeatedly settled this answer on Charlotte.  This repetitious hyperbole about this being even possible in Raleigh is just weird, and kind of sounds very subversive towards Charlotte.

Charlotte Sports Foundation has done a great job in Metro Charlotte elevating its ability to host major sports profile since the 1990s.  Most major cities with major league professional sports franchises rely upon these organizations to guage that capacity & potential. Atlanta, DC, Nashville, etc. all have similar organizations called their large sports capacities and event recruitment. Charlotte has the capacity and desirability that's why there has been this huge push of large sports event hosting in the past decade. 

FYI, most people in Western NC nor the vast majority of South Carolina are going to travel pass Charlotte to go to Raleigh to see a MLB game. The MLB Commissioner knows this fact. 

When the conditions are right, it will materialized in Charlotte.

Edited December 29, 2023 by kayman

[Richhamleigh, DC]

On 12/26/2023 at 8:16 PM, KJHburg said:

But Raleigh Durham combined  has over 2 million people is wealthier and has more people than Nashville. Their local TV market is like 3 places behind Charlotte tv market and it much bigger than Nashville's.   I agree with @nicholas Raleigh might have the gumption and the momentum to get a Carolinas based MLB team.  Before the Hornets came to town this famous quote a sports writer in Phoenix said "the only franchise Charlotte will ever get it is a McDonalds" and I hope he got to see his Suns play against our Hornets.   Raleigh Durham CMSA is 2.3 M  and they have one major league team.   Many people in the Charlotte area look at Raleigh Durham like those in Atlanta think of Charlotte (small city) but reality is different of course. 

Top 100 Television Markets - Station Index   The Triangle tv market includes Raleigh Durham and Fayetteville.  Basically the entire mid section of the state just like Charlotte's is huge.  

Income 2021 by Median Household income 

Household Income by Metro Area | Houston.org

and just looking and thinking about this is Austin mentioned as a MLB candidate and if so why not?  Could not a state of 30 Million plus have 3 MLB teams?  

But I do think the Carolinas are untapped in the  MLB especially with our growth and 2 metro options. 

In terms of location Raleigh is convenient for a Triad (Greensboro Winston) visitor as it is the east and all of eastern NC looks to Raleigh as their big city.    Even Wilmington is 2 hours away from Raleigh.  I can be in Raleigh is just over 2.5 hours.  

Agree with your analysis but please, no more "Carolina" teams.  

On 12/26/2023 at 11:56 AM, kermit said:

FWIW: Atlanta had four major league teams by 1972 (the Flames* arrived in 72, the Braves, Hawks and Falcons all come to Atlanta between 1965 and 1968), and the counties that are now metro Atlanta had roughly 2 million people in them at that time. Our metro population hit two million around 2005. Metro Raleigh-Cary is still not at 2 million, although they only have one ML team.

*While the flames had crappy attendance, the Thrashers tell us that was not the fault of market size, its just that Atlantan’s hate hockey.

 

The US Census Bureau is quantatively wrong separating Raleigh and Durham, if only from the perspective of commuting patterns.  The Raleigh-Durham Metro is more like 2.4 million.

[Hushpuppy321]

On 12/28/2023 at 3:41 PM, kayman said:

Just like what happened with the MLS franchise speculation, the same thing will reoccur here with the MLB franchise.  Raleigh has the Durham Bulls and 3 large universities (UNC-Chapel Hill, NC State, and Duke) with very robust college sports programming year-round to keep them occupied and main focus is that region.  The NHL franchise does well but it's about as much the region can draw with the above circumstances already mentioned.

Whereas, Charlotte doesn't have a bunch of large universities instead just 1 with a decent sized and mid-tier conference sports program (UNCC). Charlotte's also a larger DMA that's about to crack the top 20, and has a much larger regional population within its 100 mile radius.   The higher level of disposal income, larger market area, and the fact that the MLB Commissioner has made his point repeatedly settled this answer on Charlotte.  This repetitious hyperbole about this being even possible in Raleigh is just weird, and kind of sounds very subversive towards Charlotte.

Charlotte Sports Foundation has done a great job in Metro Charlotte elevating its ability to host major sports profile since the 1990s.  Most major cities with major league professional sports franchises rely upon these organizations to guage that capacity & potential. Atlanta, DC, Nashville, etc. all have similar organizations called their large sports capacities and event recruitment. Charlotte has the capacity and desirability that's why there has been this huge push of large sports event hosting in the past decade. 

FYI, most people in Western NC nor the vast majority of South Carolina are going to travel pass Charlotte to go to Raleigh to see a MLB game. The MLB Commissioner knows this fact. 

When the conditions are right, it will materialized in Charlotte.

Absolutely correct - my only concern is that MLB it will not materialize in Charlotte (or anywhere in NC) as there’s no potential Ownership Group (Person) like Raleigh has currently in Dundon.  I do think MLS would have performed just fine in Raleigh if they had been awarded the Expansion Franchise (Due to Latino Growth Demographics) but definitely wouldn’t have taken off as quickly as it has here in Charlotte.  

MLB though is much more of an open question because - what about the current MiLB (Knights) team and Stadium Situation?  Seems like Charlotte/Mecklenburg shot themselves in the foot by not having the new (2014) stadium being capable of enlargement.  That and it’s in a prime location that MLB would’ve liked to have had if there was a team in Charlotte.

I also believe that the ‘Carolina’ branding in the team name is very important because two of the largest SC Population Centers (Columbia & Greenville) are within 90 mins reach of Uptown and would draw significant attendees from those areas that absolutely would not travel to Raleigh.  The Commissioner know that and that’s why I believe he keeps mentioning Charlotte even though there’s crickets chirping here as far as a team/group going after MLB.  Would Dundon possibly consider Owning an Expansion Team that he situates in Charlotte?  

Essentially - Raleigh/Triangle Ownership Person/Group Headquarters, Charlotte Location (Stadium/Games/Practice Fields) and ‘Carolina’ Team Name/Branding to appeal to both State Populations.  Obviously there would be tremendous initial disgust from Raleigh/Triangle based Fans but I’d wager to believe that maybe only half of them ( Triangle Fan Base) would refuse travel to Charlotte for games, leaving us with still decent MLB Attendance Levels.  I think if this happened or were the intention / business plans of Dundon aligned with this, that North Carolina without question or delay would be awarded an Expansion Slot in an expanded MLB.  North Carolina needs to present a united front to woo the Commissioner who already has a stated desire for this (Carolina) Market.

Greenville Metro - 90 mins

Columbia Metro - 90 mins

Greensboro/Triad Metro - 90 mins

Boone/Lenior/Hickory - 70/90 Mins

Asheville Metro -  2 Hrs

Raleigh/Durham Triangle Metro - 2/2.5 Hrs 

Edited January 2 by Hushpuppy321

[TheMightyBK]

Carolina Blue Sox

[nicholas]

On 12/28/2023 at 3:41 PM, kayman said:

Just like what happened with the MLS franchise speculation, the same thing will reoccur here with the MLB franchise.  Raleigh has the Durham Bulls and 3 large universities (UNC-Chapel Hill, NC State, and Duke) with very robust college sports programming year-round to keep them occupied and main focus is that region.  The NHL franchise does well but it's about as much the region can draw with the above circumstances already mentioned.

Whereas, Charlotte doesn't have a bunch of large universities instead just 1 with a decent sized and mid-tier conference sports program (UNCC). Charlotte's also a larger DMA that's about to crack the top 20, and has a much larger regional population within its 100 mile radius.   The higher level of disposal income, larger market area, and the fact that the MLB Commissioner has made his point repeatedly settled this answer on Charlotte.  This repetitious hyperbole about this being even possible in Raleigh is just weird, and kind of sounds very subversive towards Charlotte.

Charlotte Sports Foundation has done a great job in Metro Charlotte elevating its ability to host major sports profile since the 1990s.  Most major cities with major league professional sports franchises rely upon these organizations to guage that capacity & potential. Atlanta, DC, Nashville, etc. all have similar organizations called their large sports capacities and event recruitment. Charlotte has the capacity and desirability that's why there has been this huge push of large sports event hosting in the past decade. 

FYI, most people in Western NC nor the vast majority of South Carolina are going to travel pass Charlotte to go to Raleigh to see a MLB game. The MLB Commissioner knows this fact. 

When the conditions are right, it will materialized in Charlotte.

Sporting events at the Triangle's universities are mainly attended by students of those respective universities (which generally, aside from basketball, aren't at a level to compete for national championships to draw in more fans).  Not the public at large, particularly outside of Duke vs UNC basketball games.  The Hurricanes are consistently among the most-attended teams in the NHL, whereas in Charlotte the Hornets and Panthers have seen very poor attendance in recent years.  At least people show up for FC games.

I have a hard time believing there is more disposable income in Charlotte than Raleigh.  Especially for the south, Raleigh (and the Triangle in general) is very well-educated, and all income numbers I have ever seen show Raleigh residents earning more on average than Charlotte residents.  People who don't know anything about the Triangle do not realize how good the metrics are there for MLB.

I don't think the regional population within 100 miles is as critical when there's already well over 2M people in the Triangle.  When the Hornets and Panthers were announced, the entire Charlotte metro population was only around 1M.  And besides, Charlotte would need a prospective owner/ownership group, which has not materialized yet, and Tepper's childish antics have likely killed off any remotely feasible MLB possibilities.  Raleigh's effort is well underway and is backed by the owner of the Hurricanes.

[CLT Development]

1 minute ago, nicholas said:

Sporting events at the Triangle's universities are mainly attended by students of those respective universities (which generally, aside from basketball, aren't at a level to compete for national championships to draw in more fans).  Not the public at large, particularly outside of Duke vs UNC basketball games.  The Hurricanes are consistently among the most-attended teams in the NHL, whereas in Charlotte the Hornets and Panthers have seen very poor attendance in recent years.  At least people show up for FC games.

I have a hard time believing there is more disposable income in Charlotte than Raleigh.  Especially for the south, Raleigh (and the Triangle in general) is very well-educated, and all income numbers I have ever seen show Raleigh residents earning more on average than Charlotte residents.  People who don't know anything about the Triangle do not realize how good the metrics are there for MLB.

I don't think the regional population within 100 miles is as critical when there's already well over 2M people in the Triangle.  When the Hornets and Panthers were announced, the entire Charlotte metro population was only around 1M.  And besides, Charlotte would need a prospective owner/ownership group, which has not materialized yet, and Tepper's childish antics have likely killed off any remotely feasible MLB possibilities.  Raleigh's effort is well underway and is backed by the owner of the Hurricanes.

Panthers are top 10 every year and the Hornets have been middle of the road league-wide, and were 15th last year, so I don't know how you can say either had "poor attendance." If either team performed the way the Hurricanes do, they would be well attended. Pre-2020 the Hurricanes had middling to abysmal attendance. 

[nicholas]

16 minutes ago, CLT Development said:

Panthers are top 10 every year and the Hornets have been middle of the road league-wide, and were 15th last year, so I don't know how you can say either had "poor attendance." If either team performed the way the Hurricanes do, they would be well attended. Pre-2020 the Hurricanes had middling to abysmal attendance. 

Only on paper due to the PSLs.  Does anyone honestly believe the Panthers are 7th in attendance in reality (edging out even the #1 seed 49ers, or the absolutely rabid playoff-bound Chiefs and Bills and Browns fanbases)?  There were only like 5000 fans at the game vs Atlanta a couple weeks ago.  Obviously, having a more competitive team helps tremendously with attendance, but we have what we have.  The "official" numbers don't pass the eye test. 

Edited January 2 by nicholas

[CLT2014]

12 hours ago, nicholas said:

I have a hard time believing there is more disposable income in Charlotte than Raleigh.  Especially for the south, Raleigh (and the Triangle in general) is very well-educated, and all income numbers I have ever seen show Raleigh residents earning more on average than Charlotte residents.  People who don't know anything about the Triangle do not realize how good the metrics are there for MLB.

Raw numbers are more important than ratios for the MLB to get butts in seats and total amount of people buying stuff.  Charlotte's relative size results in more six figure households to access for season tickets, box seats, et... The Triangle has great stats,  especially as a percent of households, but because it is smaller there are still overall less six figure households. 

# of households earnings $200,000+:
Charlotte CSA: 133,318
Raleigh-Durham CSA: 121,400

# of households in $100k - $199K bracket:
Charlotte CSA: 291,921
Raleigh-Durham CSA: 254,686

Total six figure households:
Charlotte CSA: 425,239
Raleigh-Durham CSA: 376,086

Six figure household lead for Charlotte CSA versus Raleigh-Durham CSA: 49,153
Census American Community Survey 2022 Income in Last 12 Months by Household

That said, both the Triangle and Charlotte regions have more six figure households than numerous markets that already have MLB teams (Milwaukee, Cincinnati, et.) 

Edited January 2 by CLT2014

[kayman]

15 hours ago, nicholas said:

Sporting events at the Triangle's universities are mainly attended by students of those respective universities (which generally, aside from basketball, aren't at a level to compete for national championships to draw in more fans).  Not the public at large, particularly outside of Duke vs UNC basketball games.  The Hurricanes are consistently among the most-attended teams in the NHL, whereas in Charlotte the Hornets and Panthers have seen very poor attendance in recent years.  At least people show up for FC games.

I have a hard time believing there is more disposable income in Charlotte than Raleigh.  Especially for the south, Raleigh (and the Triangle in general) is very well-educated, and all income numbers I have ever seen show Raleigh residents earning more on average than Charlotte residents.  People who don't know anything about the Triangle do not realize how good the metrics are there for MLB.

I don't think the regional population within 100 miles is as critical when there's already well over 2M people in the Triangle.  When the Hornets and Panthers were announced, the entire Charlotte metro population was only around 1M.  And besides, Charlotte would need a prospective owner/ownership group, which has not materialized yet, and Tepper's childish antics have likely killed off any remotely feasible MLB possibilities.  Raleigh's effort is well underway and is backed by the owner of the Hurricanes.

The MLB Commissioner has repeatedly mentioned Charlotte not Raleigh.  They have the final say on site selection not the Hurricanes' owner.  What happened back in 1980s and 1990s in Charlotte when the NBA & NFL doesn't matter, the current market and regional conditions do. 

Contrary to popular belief amongst posters in here most in Charlotte,  Western NC, nor most of SC  won't travel to Raleigh for a MLB game.  

Honestly think all Raleigh will get will be its own MLS franchise but not a MLB franchise 

[Hushpuppy321]

22 hours ago, TheMightyBK said:

Carolina Blue Sox

Carolina Bloodhounds\Hound Dogs!!

[Windsurfer]

1 minute ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Carolina Bloodhounds\Hound Dogs!!

How about a compromise, Blue tick hounds

[Hushpuppy321]

16 hours ago, nicholas said:

Sporting events at the Triangle's universities are mainly attended by students of those respective universities (which generally, aside from basketball, aren't at a level to compete for national championships to draw in more fans).  Not the public at large, particularly outside of Duke vs UNC basketball games.  The Hurricanes are consistently among the most-attended teams in the NHL, whereas in Charlotte the Hornets and Panthers have seen very poor attendance in recent years.  At least people show up for FC games.

I have a hard time believing there is more disposable income in Charlotte than Raleigh.  Especially for the south, Raleigh (and the Triangle in general) is very well-educated, and all income numbers I have ever seen show Raleigh residents earning more on average than Charlotte residents.  People who don't know anything about the Triangle do not realize how good the metrics are there for MLB.

I don't think the regional population within 100 miles is as critical when there's already well over 2M people in the Triangle.  When the Hornets and Panthers were announced, the entire Charlotte metro population was only around 1M.  And besides, Charlotte would need a prospective owner/ownership group, which has not materialized yet, and Tepper's childish antics have likely killed off any remotely feasible MLB possibilities.  Raleigh's effort is well underway and is backed by the owner of the Hurricanes.

I lived there (Triangle) for 14 years and you are correct that the Triangle Metro definitely does have higher Income, wealthier as a whole than the Charlotte Metro.  No question - But I wager to say with that income, Triangle Fan Base would be better suited / financially secure to Travel to Charlotte for Games and even stay overnight in hotels if needed.  Raleigh based MLB would probably work out.  Charlotte based MLB would most certainly work out.  Potatoe/PoTAToe…

5 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

Raw numbers are more important than ratios for the MLB to get butts in seats and total amount of people buying stuff.  Charlotte's relative size results in more six figure households to access for season tickets, box seats, et... The Triangle has great stats,  especially as a percent of households, but because it is smaller there are still overall less six figure households. 

# of households earnings $200,000+:
Charlotte CSA: 133,318
Raleigh-Durham CSA: 121,400

# of households in $100k - $199K bracket:
Charlotte CSA: 291,921
Raleigh-Durham CSA: 254,686

Total six figure households:
Charlotte CSA: 425,239
Raleigh-Durham CSA: 376,086

Six figure household lead for Charlotte CSA versus Raleigh-Durham CSA: 49,153
Census American Community Survey 2022 Income in Last 12 Months by Household

That said, both the Triangle and Charlotte regions have more six figure households than numerous markets that already have MLB teams (Milwaukee, Cincinnati, et.) 

Absolutely - it’s why I’ve cut n pasted my latest edit below:

Essentially - Raleigh/Triangle Ownership Person/Group Headquarters, Charlotte Location (Stadium/Games/Practice Fields) and ‘Carolina’ Team Name/Branding to appeal to both State Populations.  Obviously there would be tremendous initial disgust from Raleigh/Triangle based Fans but I’d wager to believe that maybe only half of them ( Triangle Fan Base) would refuse travel to Charlotte for games, leaving us with still decent MLB Attendance Levels.  I think if this happened or were the intention / business plans of Dundon aligned with this notion, that North Carolina without question or delay would be awarded an Expansion Slot in an expanded MLB.  North Carolina needs to present a united front to woo the Commissioner who already has a stated desire for this (Carolina) Market.

Edited January 2 by Hushpuppy321

[carolina1792]

Dundon now has the partnership with Wake County and the Centennial Authority to build out a sports-oriented entertainment district around PNC Arena a la "The Battery Atlanta".  If Dundon wants a MLB team, the #1 location would be next to his other team and the large sports gambling facility he's hoping to build.

 

[kermit]

24 minutes ago, carolina1792 said:

Dundon now has the partnership with Wake County and the Centennial Authority to build out a sports-oriented entertainment district around PNC Arena a la "The Battery Atlanta".  If Dundon wants a MLB team, the #1 location would be next to his other team and the large sports gambling facility he's hoping to build.

 

Gross (IMO).

Despite being a casual baseball fan and Durham native, I will never see a game there. The amount of auto dependence in sites like that is just offensive to me. I recognize I am a in the minority with this, but I just don't see how suburban sports events are fun when you exit the game and find yourself in a cow pasture / parking lot, or (even worse) surrounded by (the equivalent of) TGI Friday's and Hickory Taverns.  

Edited January 2 by kermit

[nicholas]

3 hours ago, kayman said:

The MLB Commissioner has repeatedly mentioned Charlotte not Raleigh.  They have the final say on site selection not the Hurricanes' owner.  What happened back in 1980s and 1990s in Charlotte when the NBA & NFL doesn't matter, the current market and regional conditions do. 

Contrary to popular belief amongst posters in here most in Charlotte,  Western NC, nor most of SC  won't travel to Raleigh for a MLB game.  

Honestly think all Raleigh will get will be its own MLS franchise but not a MLB franchise 

What are you even talking about?  The MLB doesn't just wave a magic wand to spawn in a new team and stadium.  At the end of the day, someone representing a Charlotte-based group has to actually bring forth a compelling bid to MLB, and I have not seen or heard anything to indicate that is going to happen.

I will grant that Charlotte has been mentioned by the MLB commissioner, national media, etc, but that mainly just stems from growing prominence, not because there is actually a serious proposal from investors to actually bring a team here here.  The unfortunate reality is that, in all likelihood, only one city on the east coast will be getting a team despite widespread interest (especially from Nashville and Raleigh), and we are so far behind efforts in both of those cities that there's very little hope at this point.

Raleigh doesn't need all of Western NC, or most of SC, or Charlotte, or really any of that to fill up a baseball stadium.  The Triangle already has over 2.3 million people, and the Triad is an hour and a half away with another 1.7 million residents.  Add 700k more around the Fayetteville area and you're already nearing 5 million potential fans just from a couple areas within an hour and a half.

Edited January 2 by nicholas

[CLT2014]

1 hour ago, nicholas said:

What are you even talking about?  The MLB doesn't just wave a magic wand to spawn in a new team and stadium.  At the end of the day, someone representing a Charlotte-based group has to actually bring forth a compelling bid to MLB, and I have not seen or heard anything to indicate that is going to happen.

I will grant that Charlotte has been mentioned by the MLB commissioner, national media, etc, but that mainly just stems from growing prominence, not because there is actually a serious proposal from investors to actually bring a team here here.  The unfortunate reality is that, in all likelihood, only one city on the east coast will be getting a team despite widespread interest (especially from Nashville and Raleigh), and we are so far behind efforts in both of those cities that there's very little hope at this point.

Raleigh doesn't need all of Western NC, or most of SC, or Charlotte, or really any of that to fill up a baseball stadium.  The Triangle already has over 2.3 million people, and the Triad is an hour and a half away with another 1.7 million residents.  Add 700k more around the Fayetteville area and you're already nearing 5 million potential fans just from a couple areas within an hour and a half.

The current "proposals" are only the ones that need media attention and are from ownership groups trying to assemble multiple owners. Salt Lake City is the only one with the right owner that is in the public eye right now IMO. At this point in the game, these grassroots efforts need more media attention than a serious billionaire who could buy a team outright. Nashville's proposal is great at marketing, but they don't actually have a RICH owner identified either. Dave Stewart is spearheading the effort (worth $10 million) as a celebrity face, but they don't have a billionaire or even enough millionaires to get to $2 billion+. They've been very light on details on how they plan to put together enough money to afford the expansion fee other than "we think it can happen."

Here's how things can go down once the dust settles:

1.) Rich Australian billionaire wants to diversify investments and buy MLB team  (as a business decision, not emotional one for town pride)
2.) Billionaire is in contact with MLB commissioner in private
3.) Commissioner says which cities are preferred by the league members for a new team + the Australian billionaire looks at the markets that are preferred for his / her investment
4.) Backroom deals occur between potential city and new billionaire 
5.) Announcements come out and people are shocked

The current websites from grassroots efforts and owners that are trying to put groups together (including Dundon) because they aren't rich enough to buy the team in private themselves may not even be the owners we get. For all we know a Saudi Prince is interested. They don't need grassroots websites or cute "support MLB in my city" shirts. What we are seeing is only a part of the story. This is really about the MLB working with the right billionaire investors to join the league at $2 billion+. The city the teams end up in is just a means to the end in that investment and town pride is the least of the League's interests or the potential owner (Dundon doesn't live in NC, he's from Dallas, but this might generate more ROI for his land assets in Raleigh if he can get some other rich people to join). Dundon's press release was basically "Hey I'm rich but not rich enough. Please call me if interested because I don't know anybody else interested to go in on this with me, otherwise this would have been a joint announcement."

It won't be dramatically different than MLS... Charlotte had multiple bids from owners that weren't really that rich but spent a lot more time trying to hype up the bid in the press... but alas we missed out on several expansion rounds. Similar situation in the Triangle where the owners were constantly trying to stay relevant in the press despite not being wealthy enough to capture League interest. Then Tepper emerges.... $16 billion+ net worth... and in less than a year Charlotte went from not relevant to securing an MLS team. I suspect MLB will be similar and the actual owners that will be selected are rich enough to not need the media at this point in the expansion game. They definitely will be rich enough to not need some guys maintaining a blog website and selling t-shirts about expansion in their city. 

Edited January 2 by CLT2014

[CltFlyer]

4 hours ago, kayman said:

The MLB Commissioner has repeatedly mentioned Charlotte not Raleigh.  They have the final say on site selection not the Hurricanes' owner.  What happened back in 1980s and 1990s in Charlotte when the NBA & NFL doesn't matter, the current market and regional conditions do. 

Contrary to popular belief amongst posters in here most in Charlotte,  Western NC, nor most of SC  won't travel to Raleigh for a MLB game.  

Honestly think all Raleigh will get will be its own MLS franchise but not a MLB franchise 

Tom Dundon knows this as well.  In his statement he said that while he prefers Raleigh (obviously),  that he would put the team in the city that works the best.

https://www.wcnc.com/article/news/local/mlb-in-nc-carolina-hurricanes-owner-leading-charge-to-bring-a-team-to-the-tar-heel-state-charlotte-north-carolina-mlb-expansion/275-7998ddf4-7b71-4b2a-8b0e-e7e8d7c88262

Edited January 2 by CltFlyer

[KJHburg]

The Raleigh-Durham (Fayetteville), NC designated market area (DMA) is a U.S. television market serving the people in the state of North Carolina. It is the 23rd biggest media market by size in the United States, with a total population of 1,289,510 TV households as of the 2022-2023 television season, up +5% from that of the 2021-2022 season.

The Charlotte, NC designated market area (DMA) is a U.S. television market serving the people in the state of North Carolina. It is the 21st biggest media market by size in the United States, with a total population of 1,323,400 TV households as of the 2022-2023 television season, up +4% from that of the 2021-2022 season.

Both Charlotte and Raleigh Durham tv markets are larger than Nashvile.  

Nielsen DMA Rankings 2023 (ustvdb.com)

The Greensboro-High Point-Winston Salem, NC designated market area (DMA) is a U.S. television market serving the people in the state of North Carolina. It is the 47th biggest media market by size in the United States, with a total population of 739,970 TV households as of the 2022-2023 television season, up +3% from that of the 2021-2022 season.      (This TV market could swing towards Chrlotte or Raleigh Durham with their viewers)

The Greenville-New Bern-Washington, NC designated market area (DMA) is a U.S. television market serving the people in the state of North Carolina. It is the 103rd biggest media market by size in the United States, with a total population of 305,320 TV households as of the 2022-2023 television season, down -2% from that of the 2021-2022 season.      (This TV matrket would swing and support a Raleigh based team)

The Wilmington, NC designated market area (DMA) is a U.S. television market serving the people in the state of North Carolina. It is the 129th biggest media market by size in the United States, with a total population of 219,540 TV households as of the 2022-2023 television season.   (this TV market only 2 hours away via I-40 would support more a Raleigh based team as Charlotte is further away)

 Greenville Spartanburg SC and Columbia would be more Charlotte supportive.   Sure someone in western NC may not travel to Raleigh for a game but likewise no one in Greenville Kinston and eastern NC would travel to Charlotte for a game. 

The point is that there is not much difference in the TV market of Charlotte vs Raleigh Durham Fayetteville

The Nashville, TN designated market area (DMA) is a U.S. television market serving the people in the state of Tennessee. It is the 27th biggest media market by size in the United States, with a total population of 1,168,540 TV households as of the 2022-2023 television season, up +4% from that of the 2021-2022 season.

 

Look at all the existing MLB tv markets that are smaller than Charlotte or Raleigh Durham and growing no where near as fast.  

 

Edited January 2 by KJHburg

[nicholas]

2 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

The current websites from grassroots efforts and owners that are trying to put groups together (including Dundon) because they aren't rich enough to buy the team in private themselves may not even be the owners we get. For all we know a Saudi Prince is interested. They don't need grassroots websites or cute "support MLB in my city" shirts. What we are seeing is only a part of the story. This is really about the MLB working with the right billionaire investors to join the league at $2 billion+. The city the teams end up in is just a means to the end in that investment and town pride is the least of the League's interests or the potential owner (Dundon doesn't live in NC, he's from Dallas, but this might generate more ROI for his land assets in Raleigh if he can get some other rich people to join). Dundon's press release was basically "Hey I'm rich but not rich enough. Please call me if interested because I don't know anybody else interested to go in on this with me, otherwise this would have been a joint announcement."

Take with a grain of salt, but I have been following this same discussion over on one of the Raleigh boards for a long time.  One of the posters there who is connected/involved with Dundon's efforts has stated multiple times that Dundon has been assembling the pieces needed for an MLB team for longer than anyone realizes, and that his group is much farther along than anyone realizes.   From one of his October comments, responding to someone who brought up a potential hurdle...

"Every aspect of this thing has been thought about and the people that make this type of stuff happen are all involved. Every person you think should be contacted or brought into the fold, is already involved. Every angle, be it money, location, ownership group, or community outreach, has been dug into and thought out.

The goal now is to beat out Nashville, who is the only true East Coast competitor."

Dundon has also publicly stated that if North Carolina does not get an MLB team, it would NOT be due to a lack of necessary capital. 

Again, talk is cheap.  But that is coming from a moderately longtime poster who for several years has accurately reported on a number of sports-related things before they went viral.

[CLT2014]

We will see indeed. Lots of rumors in situations like this and not sure how an Internet poster would have inside details on all the potential owners in contact with the MLB commissioner this early in the game, but perhaps they work for MLB. If there's only two serious ownership groups talking to the League for the East Coast... Where the wealthiest person in those groups is worth $1 billion... Yikes for MLB.

My personal lean is emotions are high on the Internet and some are acting like they are best friends with Dundon and they grab coffee as they manage their hopes and dreams.

The Triangle fan crowd was pretty convinced they were going to get MLS and had a stronger bid... Then Tepper was like "hi." Given the official expansion process hasn't kicked off, I would not rule out situations like this for any city at this point. I'm going to sit back and let the billionaires sort this out because MLB is a business and will do what is best for the league. 

Edited January 3 by CLT2014

[videtur quam contuor]

IF RDU receives a bid to Major League Baseball, are those here, in favor of the action, against, or with little interest, comfortable with the state of NC providing one billion dollars of your tax money for the acquisition of the team, site, stadium, infrastructure, tax abatements, loan guarantees, and so on?

I have invented this figure but the reality is that it will be somewhere close to this if not higher.

[kermit]

On 1/3/2024 at 8:57 AM, videtur quam contuor said:

IF RDU receives a bid to Major League Baseball, are those here, in favor of the action, against, or with little interest, comfortable with the state of NC providing one billion dollars of your tax money for the acquisition of the team, site, stadium, infrastructure, tax abatements, loan guarantees, and so on?

I have invented this figure but the reality is that it will be somewhere close to this if not higher.

In one sense yes: smart, skilled people don’t move (and stay) in places where there is little to do outside of work (and the Triangle falls into that category now). Unfortunately, a cow pasture location will fail to generate neighborhood scale urban development so a PNC arena location is a lost opportunity to create a more vibrant city.

In another sense, no. That money would have far greater economic impacts if spent on transit development, which, if done right, will attract smart skilled people and benefit current residents as well. In addition, if done right, transit will also create more vibrant urban places which will also help attract skilled folks. Ideally public investments in the built environment (like sports stadiums) would help achieve public goals like densification and transit utilization, I am not sure why Raleigh would choose to subsidise a suburban site.

* IMO this money is most appropriately sourced from the city/county. Based on the state's footing on Panthers stadium refurbishing I doubt they will be willing to kick in more than a token amount (or a standard economic development package of forgiven taxes and some infrastructure), although maybe this attitude will be different for Raleigh?

Edited January 5 by kermit