CONSTRUCTION THREAD: ONE Greenville (Main @ Washington)

[mallguy]

Downtown seemed to do a good business over Christmas.  Brooks Brothers was very busy today; multiple customers when I was in it.  Mast was packed, and there were a lot of women walking around with Anthropologie bags.

[goodbye]

Doubters disregarding Downtown as a distinct destination are decidedly delusional.

[gman430]

Doubters disregarding Downtown as a distinct destination are decidedly delusional.

Yep and large high-end national retailers like Orvis, Anthropologie, and Brooks Brothers do their homework before locating somewhere.

Edited December 27, 2014 by gman430

[gman]

Yep and large high-end national retailers like Orvis, Anthropologie, and Brooks Brothers do their homework before locating somewhere.

I agree. For me, it's a no-brainer on whether to shop downtown Greenville or anywhere on Woodruff Road. 

[mallguy]

The demographics of West Greenville need to be improved: incomes of existing residents need to be increased, and higher-quality housing needs to be built there.  That, and with the addition of additional retail anchors downtown, would make downtown an even better location for high-quality stores.

[GvilleSC]

Do you mean the west side in general or actually West Greenville? Because we are starting to see new investment in both, in thanks part to the Swamp rabbit Trail and the success of the arts district. Reclaiming some additional mills will help.

[mallguy]

West side in general.  The neighborhoods to the east of downtown (particularly the southeast) have what I'd guess are very appealing demographics, and neighborhoods north and south of downtown are also fine.  The west side, however, needs a lot of TLC.  It always has.  I've seen a lot of West Greenville residents come to Falls Park, but they don't shop on Main.

 

Separately, I wonder how long it will be until:

 

(1) The former JC Penney on N. Main (across from ONE) gets turned back into retail.  Isn't it owned by the same company that developed ONE, and weren't there some news articles stating that it's being considered for high-quality retailers?

 

(2) The Greenville Summit (the yellow hotel that is now elderly housing across from First Presbyterian) gets redeveloped.  It's now a strong location, with Aloft and ONE diagonally across from it, and surely there is a more profitable use for the building than government-subsidized housing.

Edited December 27, 2014 by mallguy

[scgubers]

West side in general.  The neighborhoods to the east of downtown (particularly the southeast) have what I'd guess are very appealing demographics, and neighborhoods north and south of downtown are also fine.  The west side, however, needs a lot of TLC.  It always has.  I've seen a lot of West Greenville residents come to Falls Park, but they don't shop on Main.

 

 

Let me rephrase this into the way you meant. "I've seen a lot of black people come to Falls Park, but they don't shop on Main."

 

There is no way to tell where a person is from simply by looking at them, unless you discern by looking at the color of their skin, and that is a dangerous flaw. Some would even call it racism. You don't look at groups of white people and say oh, you must be from Greer. 

 

As it comes across to me, you are saying I see black people downtown they must all be coming from West Greenville. And because they are not buying things their neighborhood needs to be changed. Changed into a place where white rich people want to live, so that they buy things downtown. Through your logic I infer that you want all white people downtown, because the black people you see aren't buying things. And all black people are from West Greenville and you want West Greenville to improve "their demographics." When a neighborhood becomes richer, it becomes whiter. 

 

You forget cities exist to serve all of its residents, even if they are not putting money directly into the economy. Thank goodness people like you do not run the city. 

[MAJIKMAN]

Let me interject. I kind of see the points of the two of you. Mallguy is saying (I hope) is that if more medium to high end stores are to open downtown the surrounding neighborhoods around it have to have increasing incomes. Now on the other end of this. We shouldn't be profiling period. Enough said.

Edited December 29, 2014 by MAJIKMAN

[mallguy]

Let me rephrase this into the way you meant. "I've seen a lot of black people come to Falls Park, but they don't shop on Main."

 

There is no way to tell where a person is from simply by looking at them, unless you discern by looking at the color of their skin, and that is a dangerous flaw. Some would even call it racism. You don't look at groups of white people and say oh, you must be from Greer. 

 

As it comes across to me, you are saying I see black people downtown they must all be coming from West Greenville. And because they are not buying things their neighborhood needs to be changed. Changed into a place where white rich people want to live, so that they buy things downtown. Through your logic I infer that you want all white people downtown, because the black people you see aren't buying things. And all black people are from West Greenville and you want West Greenville to improve "their demographics." When a neighborhood becomes richer, it becomes whiter. 

 

You forget cities exist to serve all of its residents, even if they are not putting money directly into the economy. Thank goodness people like you do not run the city.

I usually don't respond to posts such as the one above, but:

1. First, your equation of a lower income neighborhood with African Americans is solely yours, and it's not based on fact. (I find your assertions about African-Americans extremely offensive, and for you to inpute your statements to me is extremely offensive and wrong.)

West Greenville is overwhelmingly white. African-Americans make up only a small portion of the population. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berea,_South_Carolina. Accordingly, when I walked around Falls Park recently, I saw very few African-Americans; most people there were white, with a Hispanic minority. So there goes most of your post.

2. Second, it is certainly possible to tell where someone is from by ways other than skin color. Since most West Greenvillians are white, their origins can be discerned by clothing, such as Berea High gear, and by, believe it or not, talking to them or hearing them without engaging in direct conversation.

3. Third, I certainly look at groups of white people and attribute a geographic origin to them. I live in NYC and when I see groups of fair-skinned/fair-haired whites in NYC, wearing preppy, colorful clothes, I immediately think that they are from places such as Kansas or Iowa--certainly not New York. Lots of other NYC residents also make that attribution. Perhaps we shouldn't, but there goes another of your false assertions.

4. Fourth, West Greenville does need to be changed by, as I stated, improving the incomes of people who live there. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that statement; a higher income is desired by most everyone. You don't want a higher salary? Higher incomes in all neighborhoods surrounding downtown would help attract higher-end retailers, although improving people's incomes is per se a very desirable goal.

Next time you want to make statements such as the ones you did, (1) do your homework and (2) do not attribute your own views to others. Clear?

Edited December 30, 2014 by mallguy

[motonenterprises]

Off topic a little, but since most dark skinned Americans aren't born in Africa; they are not African Americans no more than light skinned people are European Americans. Just Americans in general. Whenever someone refers to me as such I straighten them out. I have a uncle by marriage who truly is from Africa. He'll correct you quicker than I will.

[scgubers]

I usually don't respond to posts such as the one above, but:

1. First, your equation of a lower income neighborhood with African Americans is solely yours, and it's not based on fact. (I find your assertions about African-Americans extremely offensive, and for you to inpute your statements to me is extremely offensive and wrong.)

West Greenville is overwhelmingly white. African-Americans make up only a small portion of the population. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berea,_South_Carolina. Accordingly, when I walked around Falls Park recently, I saw very few African-Americans; most people there were white, with a Hispanic minority. So there goes most of your post.

2. Second, it is certainly possible to tell where someone is from by ways other than skin color. Since most West Greenvillians are white, their origins can be discerned by clothing, such as Berea High gear, and by, believe it or not, talking to them or hearing them without engaging in direct conversation.

3. Third, I certainly look at groups of white people and attribute a geographic origin to them. I live in NYC and when I see groups of fair-skinned/fair-haired whites in NYC, wearing preppy, colorful clothes, I immediately think that they are from places such as Kansas or Iowa--certainly not New York. Lots of other NYC residents also make that attribution. Perhaps we shouldn't, but there goes another of your false assertions.

4. Fourth, West Greenville does need to be changed by, as I stated, improving the incomes of people who live there. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that statement; a higher income is desired by most everyone. You don't want a higher salary? Higher incomes in all neighborhoods surrounding downtown would help attract higher-end retailers, although improving people's incomes is per se a very desirable goal.

Next time you want to make statements such as the ones you did, (1) do your homework and (2) do not attribute your own views to others. Clear?

 

 

Berea is not in West Greenville. Yes, it's west of Greenville, but it is not in the City. West Greenville generally refers to the neighborhoods directly adjacent to 123 within the city limits, including the neighborhoods West Greenville, and Southernside. These neighborhoods are overwhelmingly black. So no, my post does not go anywhere -- its validity remains the same. Yet, no matter how you define West Greenville you are comparing overwhelmingly white neighborhoods to neighborhoods that are overwhelmingly minority and saying they need be more like the white neighborhoods. That's a dangerous assertion to make.  Beyond that your habit to profile remains. I wear plenty of sweatshirts and other t-shirts with geographic indicators, yet I'm not from any of those places. And just because every one is doing it means its okay? Thats just about logical fallacy number one. "Everybody" was racist in the 1950s, but that doesn't mean it was right. 

 

Perhaps you are well meaning, but when you say improve the demographics of an area, it comes across quite strongly as this neighborhood needs to be gentrified. There is a stark difference between improving the demographics of an area and increasing current resident incomes. Yes, the incomes of West Greenville residents need to be improved, but not so they can shop on Main. So they can maintain a better livelihood. 

Edited December 30, 2014 by scgubers

[gvegascple]

I agree with SCGUBERS on what is referred to as West Greenville, and if you take race out of the picture, I agree that the area is not in the best shape.  There are impediments to investment such as crime (the copper was stolen out from under my house and people visiting my home have had their cars broken into), school district assignment, street scaping and the state of many of the homes there to name a few.  I dont see how you can wave a magic wand and make everyone make more money though and with that truth, how can things change?  It brings everything back to the age old gentrification debate.  Oh, that and this probably belongs in a different thread.

[mallguy]

Berea is not in West Greenville. Yes, it's west of Greenville, but it is not in the City. West Greenville generally refers to the neighborhoods directly adjacent to 123 within the city limits, including the neighborhoods West Greenville, and Southernside. These neighborhoods are overwhelmingly black. So no, my post does not go anywhere -- its validity remains the same. Yet, no matter how you define West Greenville you are comparing overwhelmingly white neighborhoods to neighborhoods that are overwhelmingly minority and saying they need be more like the white neighborhoods. That's a dangerous assertion to make.  Beyond that your habit to profile remains. I wear plenty of sweatshirts and other t-shirts with geographic indicators, yet I'm not from any of those places. And just because every one is doing it means its okay? Thats just about logical fallacy number one. "Everybody" was racist in the 1950s, but that doesn't mean it was right. 

 

Perhaps you are well meaning, but when you say improve the demographics of an area, it comes across quite strongly as this neighborhood needs to be gentrified. There is a stark difference between improving the demographics of an area and increasing current resident incomes. Yes, the incomes of West Greenville residents need to be improved, but not so they can shop on Main. So they can maintain a better livelihood.

Scgubers, again:

Please stop equating low-income areas with African Americans. Your assertion is solely yours, without any basis whatsoever in fact or other posts. Nobody brought race into this thread, particularly in a negative way, until you did.

Whether or not you consider West Greenville (e.g., Berea, White Horse Road, etc.) to be "West Greenville" and a largely white area, I do, and that's what I posted. Further, Greenville itself refers to white areas far west of downtown- beyond the areas you name- as "West Greenville":

* The "West Greenville" magistrate's court, on the government's own website, is on White Horse Road (http://www.greenvillecounty.org/magistrate_courts/West_Greenville.asp), a generally white area near Berea.

* The "West" side park, on the government's own website, is near White Horse Road (http://greenvillerec.com/parks/westside), a generally white area near Berea.

* For realtors, "West Greenville" stretches as far west as even Powdersville, at the edge of the county (http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-search/West-Greenville_Greenville_SC).

To respond to some of your other allegations that "low-income" equals "African-American", all without any basis whatsoever in fact or other posts:

What I stated about West Greenville is that we need to increase the incomes of people who live there (which is of course a good thing- who would not want a salary increase, other than maybe you?). Race has NOTHING to do with that, except in your own mind. I NEVER stated that we needed to make West Greenville "more like the white neighborhoods"--particularly as the neighborhoods that I mentioned, where residents' incomes should be improved--are largely white. Only you continue to equate low income with African-American, in your own mind only.

You may have initially misunderstood what I meant by "West Greenville", but you should have thought about it a bit before leaping to your own unsupported and offensive conclusion that "low-income" means "African-American". You should instead actually read my post and see that "West Greenville", in my mind (and the government's, and others', as per the links above) is, let me repeat, a generally white area, as I've posted many times.

Again: stop jumping to the conclusion that low-income ties to African-American. Your assertions are very offensive, and it's even more offensive wrongly to attribute your views to others, and warped for you wrongly to assert that low income means "African-American", and then to play holier-than-though about racial issues.

Edited December 31, 2014 by mallguy

[gman]

Meanwhile, back to the topic...please!

[mallguy]

Agreed 100%!

 

Back to Main & Washington...

 

How's Orvis doing? 

[Neo]

I have hidden the only post (and a reply to it) that I deem racist and thus against board rules. I think some individuals here are asserting that a post is racist when it is not. I have not seen any more post other than the two that I hid that cry out as being racist but have seen replies where said posts were taken as being racist. Even the word 'demographics' can be taken as racist or sexist by some so let's just cool down, take a breather, and get on with the topic. We're all adults here so let's be civilized in our discussion. Blatant racist remarks need to be reported and appropriate action will be taken, but let's stop reporting posts that are not.

 

Thanks

[mallguy]

Thank you; I am happy with this outcome.

Back to the topic at hand, if you look at Foursquare, Anthropologie has hundreds of check-ins; Brooks Brothers has a decent amount and Orvis has very few. Does that indicate relative sales for the stores? Or just that Anthropologie appeals to a customer base that uses Foursquare, and Brooks Brothers and Orvis don't?

Perhaps a minor concern, but I just want to make sure that these amazing stores flourish.

[goodbye]

Back to the topic at hand, if you look at Foursquare, Anthropologie has hundreds of check-ins; Brooks Brothers has a decent amount and Orvis has very few. Does that indicate relative sales for the stores? Or just that Anthropologie appeals to a customer base that uses Foursquare, and Brooks Brothers and Orvis don't?

Perhaps a minor concern, but I just want to make sure that these amazing stores flourish.

Considering Orvis is very new, targets a different clientele, and is less visible to pedestrians on Main Street, I wouldn't worry about the foursquare "rating" system.

With the recent rise of ONE and its secondary development anchored by Aloft under construction, the city should seriously consider marketing the Greenlink terminal property for larger scale, mixed-use redevelopment. It has enormous potential to accelerate growth and enhance the quality of life in Downtown Greenville.

[MAJIKMAN]

Considering Orvis is very new, targets a different clientele, and is less visible to pedestrians on Main Street, I wouldn't worry about the foursquare "rating" system.

With the recent rise of ONE and its secondary development anchored by Aloft under construction, the city should seriously consider marketing the Greenlink terminal property for larger scale, mixed-use redevelopment. It has enormous potential to accelerate growth and enhance the quality of life in Downtown Greenville.

I absolutely agree. That is a prime piece of property that is highly underutilized. That could be a catalyst for development going up West Washington Street. What an enormous opportunity. But the expense of moving and finding the right location for another transit station probably isn't on the city's agenda at present. But it would be nice

[mallguy]

I also agree that moving the bus terminal and redeveloping the site would be terrific.  I had not thought of that. 

 

I recall that the site was a surface parking lot until the late 1980s.  Since it could be redeveloped from scratch, it would make a great location for a development that requires large floorplans, such as an urban Target or a large office building with a large-format retailer at the base, or even a mixed-use development like the Epicenter in Charlotte.  Perhaps the developer of that site could contribute towards a new transit center elsewhere in downtown, such as on one of the parking lots in the east side of downtown; at least in NYC, real estate developers frequently are required to contribute to improvements to adjacent subway stations, for example.

[gman430]

The transit center is for sale and has been for sometime now. The money from the sale of the site to a developer would be used to build a new transit center.

[Greenville]

The transit center is for sale and has been for sometime now. The money from the sale of the site to a developer would be used to build a new transit center.

 

That is great news!  Someone will purchase the site soon because it is too prominent a site to not be developed in mixed-use fashion.  An urban Target as mallguy mentioned would be perfect here.

Edited January 1, 2015 by Greenville

[MAJIKMAN]

That is great news. But how public is it. I mean this is the first time I've heard of this.

[MAJIKMAN]

That epicenter is good but....... Not like that. Charlotte's having a few issues with it at the moment. But i think that kind of developement would be best suited a block over at Academy Street. That whole block is screaming for something big. And im not talking parking lot.

But back on topic...... Was down by there yesterday. They are getting that thing done arent they.