Orlando Citrus Bowl Stadium [Renovation Completed]

[spenser1058]

Angry about Tinker Field? Look at what else isn't protected

 

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/os-tinker-field-beth-kassab-20140214,0,5371738.column

 

Beth encapsulates exactly why Tinker Field matters so much. First the Jaymont Block, then the Eola 5, what's next? Any developer that comes along with a shiny idea for Bulldozer Buddy can do whatever he/she likes with as little public input as possible.

 

I continue to be fascinated by the folks who say none of this matters, but a city's history is what makes it special. Tear down everything for yet another Baker Barrios uninspired creation (let's think now - what buildings built lately are remotely architecturally significant?) so that downtown can be as inspirational as... Casselberry? 

 

People are always fascinated by the neighborhoods saved by Mayor Bill back in the 80's and early 90's. If it had been up to Buddy back then, Thornton Park and Eola Heights would be gone now. But hey, as long as some out of town developer can make a quick buck and leave a trail of stucco-on-plywood disasters behind, that's all that matters, right? That's not the Orlando I could ever care about.

 

Ever wonder why Rich Crotty's "Downtown Orange County" on International Drive never took off? Who'd want to live in such a soulless place? There's a reason tiny little bungalows in Thornton Park command such high prices - it's the history and the quality of the neighborhood.

 

Jernigan and trueblue made great suggestions about where to go from here. First, however, let's ask this question: Buddy knew all along that Tinker was historically significant. If they needed more room for the Citrus Bowl, why was no thought given to moving Rio Grande a little east instead of just taking out Tinker? The answer is simple - because he and his crew simply did not care. They tried to present it at the last minute as a fait accompli, just as they did with the Jaymont Block.

 

That's the m.o. now - if anything is in your way, just let it go unmaintained long enough to say, "darn, there's just no choice, it has to go," when in fact there was a choice all along which was simply ignored. That way of thinking to make a few people wealthier at the expense of what makes Orlando special in the first place needs to stop now. Let Tinker be the warning.

[JFW657]

sunshine, on 14 Feb 2014 - 2:19 PM, said:

Dare I said...build a MLB stadium and get a real team...

If Tampa doesn't build the Rays a real stadium in downtown TAMPA, then Orlando could. It would be worth it to keep them in central Florida, But the Sternberg's have made it clear they want to stay in the Bay. MLS is our deal.

 

I dunno... just heard on the news today that Fla House Speaker Will "No Medicaid Expansion" Weatherford wants to pass some kind of legislation that would make it much more difficult to get state help to fund any more sports venues.

 

http://www.saintpetersblog.com/will-weatherford-no-new-stadium-funding-in-2014

[JFW657]

Angry about Tinker Field? Look at what else isn't protected

 

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/os-tinker-field-beth-kassab-20140214,0,5371738.column

 

Beth encapsulates exactly why Tinker Field matters so much. First the Jaymont Block, then the Eola 5, what's next? Any developer that comes along with a shiny idea for Bulldozer Buddy can do whatever he/she likes with as little public input as possible.

 

I continue to be fascinated by the folks who say none of this matters, but a city's history is what makes it special. Tear down everything for yet another Baker Barrios uninspired creation (let's think now - what buildings built lately are remotely architecturally significant?) so that downtown can be as inspirational as... Casselberry? 

 

People are always fascinated by the neighborhoods saved by Mayor Bill back in the 80's and early 90's. If it had been up to Buddy back then, Thornton Park and Eola Heights would be gone now. But hey, as long as some out of town developer can make a quick buck and leave a trail of stucco-on-plywood disasters behind, that's all that matters, right? That's not the Orlando I could ever care about.

 

Ever wonder why Rich Crotty's "Downtown Orange County" on International Drive never took off? Who'd want to live in such a soulless place? There's a reason tiny little bungalows in Thornton Park command such high prices - it's the history and the quality of the neighborhood.

 

Jernigan and trueblue made great suggestions about where to go from here. First, however, let's ask this question: Buddy knew all along that Tinker was historically significant. If they needed more room for the Citrus Bowl, why was no thought given to moving Rio Grande a little east instead of just taking out Tinker? The answer is simple - because he and his crew simply did not care. They tried to present it at the last minute as a fait accompli, just as they did with the Jaymont Block.

 

That's the m.o. now - if anything is in your way, just let it go unmaintained long enough to say, "darn, there's just no choice, it has to go," when in fact there was a choice all along which was simply ignored. That way of thinking to make a few people wealthier at the expense of what makes Orlando special in the first place needs to stop now. Let Tinker be the warning.

 

 

But honestly... did we really want to save Woolworth's & McCrory's?

 

Had they been halfway significant buildings I & probably everyone else would've been behind saving them.

 

But they were crap.

 

What's there now is much better for that corner.

 

You can't save every little nickel & dime building just because it's been there for a few decades. Those buildings had only been there since the 1940's anyway.

 

Glad they're gone.

[jliv]

Angry about Tinker Field? Look at what else isn't protected

 

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/opinion/os-tinker-field-beth-kassab-20140214,0,5371738.column

 

Beth encapsulates exactly why Tinker Field matters so much. First the Jaymont Block, then the Eola 5, what's next? Any developer that comes along with a shiny idea for Bulldozer Buddy can do whatever he/she likes with as little public input as possible.

 

I continue to be fascinated by the folks who say none of this matters, but a city's history is what makes it special. Tear down everything for yet another Baker Barrios uninspired creation (let's think now - what buildings built lately are remotely architecturally significant?) so that downtown can be as inspirational as... Casselberry? 

 

People are always fascinated by the neighborhoods saved by Mayor Bill back in the 80's and early 90's. If it had been up to Buddy back then, Thornton Park and Eola Heights would be gone now. But hey, as long as some out of town developer can make a quick buck and leave a trail of stucco-on-plywood disasters behind, that's all that matters, right? That's not the Orlando I could ever care about.

 

Ever wonder why Rich Crotty's "Downtown Orange County" on International Drive never took off? Who'd want to live in such a soulless place? There's a reason tiny little bungalows in Thornton Park command such high prices - it's the history and the quality of the neighborhood.

 

Jernigan and trueblue made great suggestions about where to go from here. First, however, let's ask this question: Buddy knew all along that Tinker was historically significant. If they needed more room for the Citrus Bowl, why was no thought given to moving Rio Grande a little east instead of just taking out Tinker? The answer is simple - because he and his crew simply did not care. They tried to present it at the last minute as a fait accompli, just as they did with the Jaymont Block.

 

That's the m.o. now - if anything is in your way, just let it go unmaintained long enough to say, "darn, there's just no choice, it has to go," when in fact there was a choice all along which was simply ignored. That way of thinking to make a few people wealthier at the expense of what makes Orlando special in the first place needs to stop now. Let Tinker be the warning.

 

 

As a lifelong student of the urban development of cities, I think back to the citizen revolts of Vancouver, BC and Portland, OR in the 1970's as a model for what still needs to happen in Orlando.  In those cities, short-sighted politicians, planners, and business interests planned freeways through valuable, historical neighborhoods, following the North American mid-century model of urban renewal that was in vogue at the time.  Enough of their citizenry revolted, blocked the planned freeways, threw out the responsible politicians, and voted for a more responsible urban planning agenda to preserve the precious environment those cities still enjoy today.  That fantastic and well-utilized light-rail system that runs throughout the Portland area?  It's there because people found their voice and pushed for an alternative, as opposed to a Billy Dial or Martin Andersen calling the shots.  Unfortunately, the transient nature of many potential Orlando civic leaders prevents a collective progressive voice from emerging.   Therefore, we wind up with myopic good ol' boy politicians and developers who fail to understand what makes cities great.  As a result, the Tea Party/Doug Goetzloe types drive the conversation.  

 

By the way, I have always loved the Orlando Public Library building.  When I was a kid, it reminded me of a concrete cave/Fortress of Solitude full of knowledge.  As an adult, I appreciate it as an outstanding example of 70's Brutalist architecture.  The original John Johansen design, along with the 1986 expansion, has aged well and communicates the sense of institutional permanence that a library building should invoke.  These buildings are a part of our collective history and are worth fighting for.

[spenser1058]

But honestly... did we really want to save Woolworth's & McCrory's?

 

Had they been halfway significant buildings I & probably everyone else would've been behind saving them.

 

But they were crap.

 

What's there now is much better for that corner.

 

You can't save every little nickel & dime building just because it's been there for a few decades. Those buildings had only been there since the 1940's anyway.

 

Glad they're gone.

 

"But they were crap." They were crap because they were simply allowed to disintegrate just long enough so the excuse could be used that "gosh, we just didn't have any choice," very much like Tinker, and in that case out-of-town owners who cared little about Orlando could take the money and run.

 

Actually, McCrory's was from the 1940's and was one of two examples of Streamline Moderne architecture we had left (the other, the Rutland's building, is still there, but for how long?) Woolworth's went back to the late '20's- early '30's. Both were integral parts of downtown life in their time and their utility just as important as, say, Church Street Station. 

Edited February 15, 2014 by spenser1058

[AndyPok1]

I'm sorry, but you simply can't act as if The Plaza complex isn't a huge win for Orlando.  It's a block away from the center of the city.  I'm happy Angelbilt got restored.  There is no simple black/white decision on what is best saving vs tearing down and starting new.  But the ability to add that density, commercial, residential, and retail in such a prominent location was an opportunity that had to be used.

[spenser1058]

I'm sorry, but you simply can't act as if The Plaza complex isn't a huge win for Orlando.  It's a block away from the center of the city.  I'm happy Angelbilt got restored.  There is no simple black/white decision on what is best saving vs tearing down and starting new.  But the ability to add that density, commercial, residential, and retail in such a prominent location was an opportunity that had to be used.

 

 

 

For the record, the Plaza has a variety of problems, starting with a horrible parking garage and a really awful design that leads you from the plaza area into an abyss that is no more than a dark empty utility area that I abhor walking through from Eola up to Orange Avenue. Nevertheless, there are positives to it, especially the movie theater which has prospered despite all predictions to the contrary. For that, Buddy has my sincerest thanks.

 

It isn't correct to say the choice was to bulldoze what we had or to build the Plaza. From the inception of what to do with the block, preservationists bent over backward to seek a compromise which, at the last point before Buddy's midnight bulldozers ran, would have kept only the facades to the Orange Avenue side (hardly a great answer, btw, but they were making a last-ditch effort to do anything to avoid exactly what happened.) Instead, just like any developer who'd rather bulldoze a forest rather than making an effort to save some trees, and without so much as any notice, one of the historic blocks of Orlando was leveled. (We also won't talk about the hits the city has taken financially on the Plaza). Downtown Orlando has more than enough vacant land to build anything anybody wants to without this sort of activity.

 

If this sounds a lot like Jane Jacobs' effort to save Greenwich Village from Robert Moses' expressways, well.... let's just say that urban America has decided which is more valuable. Jacobs is regarded now as a hero - meanwhile, from Boston to San Francisco, these hideous monster projects are being dismantled. It's recognized Portmanesque projects have little attraction for citizens - human scale projects are what make a walkable city that makes people want to leave their cars.

 

But hey, there's a mindset out there - Mike Boslet, the former editor of Orlando Magazine, wrote that the answer to Church Street's problems was simply to plow it all under and start over. Would the result look more like Casselberry or Union Park, do you suppose? Hey, Baker Barrios' viser buildings are an inspiration to architects everywhere, right?

Edited February 16, 2014 by spenser1058

[spenser1058]

I was reminded in these discussions of a scene from  Sure of You, the sixth volume of Armistead Maupin's awesome Tales of the City series, and how everyday people often view our built environment differently from the bureaucrats. To wit:

 

• 'Michael and Brian were talking with their former landlady, Mrs. Madrigal. On their way to her house, while climbing the wooden stairs to Barbary Lane, they noticed a sign bearing instructions to replace any wooden planks in the stairs that were damaged. When they asked Mrs. Madrigal what that was all about, she said that the neighborhood had taken to caring for the quaint wooden steps so that the city wouldn't replace them with ugly, concrete steps. Michael said, "Well, I think that the concrete steps would last longer, and would be cheaper and easier to maintain." Mrs. Madrigal gave him a wise, patient look and said, "All of LIFE is maintenance, dear!" '

[spenser1058]

Oops - error.

 

Edited February 15, 2014 by spenser1058

[AndyPok1]

The counter-argument I would make is that Greenwich Village is somewhat isolated from the CBD of NYC, whereas Jaymont/Plaza are literally right in the middle of it.  Does it have its problems?  Sure.  The parking garage is horribly designed, and typically overpriced, but its still better than a surface lot.  I assume when you mean the alley, you're talking about Court Street?  The sidewalks through there are horribly built, but there's no real reason to be walking through there unless you're going to visit someone in Solaire or you're actively going to one of the Plaza establishments.  If you're just going from Eola to Orange, you can just stay on Church or Pine and not have an issue?

 

But we're off topic.  I love old buildings.  If they're serviceable, they're great.  However you have to pick and choose battles.  Tinker Field can remain without actually being used as a ballpark.  League Park in Cleveland was unusable for over 50 years despite the history in it until it was recently renovated and reopened to the public.  There's nothing to say that can't be done here.

[jack]

The difference between Tinker and Jaymont is the ownership. The City allowed Tinker to deteriorate, which is more of an issue compared to the Jaymont block. What we got out of it was worth it. 

 

I am not dialed in with Tinker, but I imagine to move the base of the stadium would have been to costly. The upper deck remains which means the base/lower bowl would have to offset the rest of it. The biggest issue in my eyes, is that the City knew all along (probably since the mid 2000,'s) but just announced it like it was no big deal. 

[jrs2]

the entire lower bowl and the concrete access ramp structures at three of the four corners of the stadium are gone now.

[Boomer136]

They're making forms and pouring concrete.

[jrs2]

^^

incredible how quickly they are doing this...

[AndyPok1]

Crazy what happens when things need to get done on a timeline.  If only more things had this urgency.

[Boomer136]

NW corner ramp is no more.

[jrs2]

simply amazing how they are discecting the stadium the way they are...

[Boomer136]

The cameras were down for awhile, but they are back up and show they started going vertical.

 

Oh and when the prominent porta-let turns into the Tardis, that I will screen capture.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Boomer136

[JFW657]

Don't know if these two particular renderings have been posted yet or not, but I don't think I've seen them before.

The bottom one looks like one that's been around for awhile, but maybe more detailed(?), but I don't recall seeing the top one before.

[spenser1058]

Could those actually be citrus trees in the foreground of the top pic? If they are, be still my heart! It always made me wonder how a place named the Citrus Bowl didn't even have a token orange tree around.

[codypet]

I think those are the Oaks on the North Side of Church St.  Looks like the scoreboard will now be on the south side of the stadium.  Doesn't look like a whole lot of space to bring monster trucks in.  They still planning to do Monster Jam at the Citrus bowl?

[Boomer136]

I believe monster truck is safe. It appears that there is a gate behind that large central vom on the north side to make it easy to drive in. I like that they are opening up the vista over Lake Lorna Doone with the move of the primary scoreboard to the south and adding two rather large ancillary scoreboards. That is if they actually install those.

 

Do you think those are escalators in the new glass wings?

Edited March 24, 2014 by Boomer136

[truebluecfl]

I believe monster truck is safe. It appears that there is a gate behind that large central vom on the north side to make it easy to drive in. I like that they are opening up the vista over Lake Lorna Doone with the move of the primary scoreboard to the south and adding two rather large ancillary scoreboards. That is if they actually install those.

 

Do you think those are escalators in the new glass wings?

 

They've done Monster Trucks in 8,000 seat arena's, so like you said, Im sure there is plenty of space for them to get in. The opening at at the north end of the stadium has always allowed a nice breeze off Lorna Doone to come into the Citrus Bowl, plus it will allow a nice view to be seen from the concourse.

 

Yes there are escalators, there were 2 on each side of the old citrus bowl so I assume they'll keep them and maybe add more. Whats weird to me is it looks like they will be using stairs instead of ramps? They need to use ramps in stadiums to get supplies and vehicles to the upper decks, also ramps are much safer than stairs or escalators when you have 4000 drunk people all herding down. Unless they are putting in some major new escalators or elevators I don't see how stairs are going to work...

[Boomer136]

Put a fountain in Lake Lorna Doone (I love saying that, I think of Brigadoon). In deference to spencer, the base should represent a bowl of citrus fruits. The cameras at the games would give it plenty of air time I'd bet.

[Casselberry_Knight]

While I'm quite excited about the disaster of a stadium being rebuilt (it was such an embarrassment to the city..), how many years until FCS comes back to the city asking for another $50-100 million to finish the Citrus Bowl. It's no secret this is simply "Phase-1". 

 

The seating is going from 65,000 to 55,000. 

 

The South endzone already has future suites/club level on the plans ( support beams are included in "Phase-1" ).

 

I believe the new stadium will only have 30% the luxury seating as a typical NFL stadium, and I believe 65k is the minimum for a College Playoff Bid.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Suburb Mike