MacArthur Mall REDEVELOPMENT (Proposed/Planning) City of Norfolk

[baobabs727]

9 hours ago, mintscraft56 said:

Well, we can only hope. The best bet to any of this would be a apartment tower(s) or hotel, however hotels are not in much demand around here as of yet. As far as offices go, good question. Dollar Tree would be the better bet, however, they got their new headquarters in Summit Pointe so im not nearly as hopeful for them either. 

Also, id try avoiding the politics. 

On another note. I dont care what people could say, id still be up for tearing down parts of MacArthur to make way for redevelopment. Because, mind you, I think our city might need a brand spankin new City Hall soon.... We are far to big to have our city hall placed in that ugly tower separated from the rest of Downtown. 

Well, Hope does spring eternal! Hotel would be more likely than office. Apartment more likely than hotel, but only given a deep pocketed developer who has a proven track record in the market and nearly $on-tap$ connections to lenders. And since the national players are pretty much never interested in HR, the applicable, qualified dev. pool is fairly shallow.  

Trump! Ok, ok. Deep breaths, young Skywalker. It was only an analogy.  Do they still have those on the SAT?  There was no character judgment or political affiliation implied or intended in that statement. By the way, IF you think you know my take on Trump/the cases against him based solely on that analogy, you're probably wrong.  Although you do have a 50/50 chance of guessing correctly...unless, that is....I have nuanced views on the subject.  Wait. What? NUANCE????? OH MY GOD!! THE HORROR!  :)

Gas up the bulldozers!  Cranes up! Wrecking balls affixed! Earplugs in!  (Just remember to leave Dillard's standing)   

 

 

[mintscraft56]

5 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

Well, Hope does spring eternal! Hotel would be more likely than office. Apartment more likely than hotel, but only given a deep pocketed developer who has a proven track record in the market and nearly $on-tap$ connections to lenders. And since the national players are pretty much never interested in HR, the applicable, qualified dev. pool is fairly shallow.  

Trump! Ok, ok. Deep breaths, young Skywalker. It was only an analogy.  Do they still have those on the SAT?  There was no character judgment or political affiliation implied or intended in that statement. By the way, IF you think you know my take on Trump/the cases against him based solely on that analogy, you're probably wrong.  Although you do have a 50/50 chance of guessing correctly...unless, that is....I have nuanced views on the subject.  Wait. What? NUANCE????? OH MY GOD!! THE HORROR!  :)

Gas up the bulldozers!  Cranes up! Wrecking balls affixed! Earplugs in!  (Just remember to leave Dillard's standing)   

 

 

Yea dillards can stay. 

Though, I dont understand what developers and companies want that we dont have.

Population-We have 2 million people in the area, Check. 
Economy- Our economy is fairly decent and we have many companies here, Check. 
Tourism- Obviously we get alot of this, Check. 
Culture/Diversity- Our diversity here as a military town exceeds some expectations. We have alot going on here, Check. 
Infrastructure- Highways, Bridges, ect, Check. 
Transportation- Buses, Light rail, Airport, Ships, Cruises, you name it we got it (mostly). , Check. 
Business Center- Downtown (duh) , Check. 

What more do they need? I know demand is a big thing, but at times when demand is high, we still dont get things from it. 

Edited June 12, 2023 by mintscraft56

[baobabs727]

7 hours ago, mintscraft56 said:

Yea dillards can stay. 

Though, I dont understand what developers and companies want that we dont have.

Population-We have 2 million people in the area, Check. 
Economy- Our economy is fairly decent and we have many companies here, Check. 
Tourism- Obviously we get alot of this, Check. 
Culture/Diversity- Our diversity here as a military town exceeds some expectations. We have alot going on here, Check. 
Infrastructure- Highways, Bridges, ect, Check. 
Transportation- Buses, Light rail, Airport, Ships, Cruises, you name it we got it (mostly). , Check. 
Business Center- Downtown (duh) , Check. 

What more do they need? I know demand is a big thing, but at times when demand is high, we still dont get things from it. 

Right, Dillard's owns their store. They look for population growth,  job growth, wage growth and higher paying jobs. 

[mintscraft56]

On 6/12/2023 at 11:46 PM, baobabs727 said:

Right, Dillard's owns their store. They look for population growth,  job growth, wage growth and higher paying jobs. 

Well, population growth is good actully. Jobs are fine. Wage growth is where we choke out.

[PuppiesandKittens]

With Dillard’s becoming a clearance center, its days may be numbered. Really too bad.

[mintscraft56]

On 7/8/2023 at 10:14 AM, PuppiesandKittens said:

With Dillard’s becoming a clearance center, its days may be numbered. Really too bad.

I think the days were numbered not too long ago. 

[BeagleAccountant]

Norfolk beginning negotiations with Dillard's on a purchase of their space. 

https://www.pilotonline.com/2023/07/14/norfolk-negotiating-purchase-of-dillards-in-downtown-macarthur-center/

[KJHburg]

Dillard's closing for good.

https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/dillards-is-done-macarthur-center-store-to-close-for-good/

[mintscraft56]

5 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Dillard's closing for good.

https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/dillards-is-done-macarthur-center-store-to-close-for-good/

Well thats it. McArthur Center is dead. Gone. Done.

[urbanvb]

That’s all she wrote. That’s all folks.

Edited July 15, 2023 by urbanvb

[PuppiesandKittens]

18 hours ago, BeagleAccountant said:

Norfolk beginning negotiations with Dillard's on a purchase of their space. 

https://www.pilotonline.com/2023/07/14/norfolk-negotiating-purchase-of-dillards-in-downtown-macarthur-center/

I don’t understand why governments buy malls and kick out retailers or otherwise get retailers to depart: surely even a Dillard’s Clearance Center is better than nothing.  Malls can be redeveloped while leaving anchors in place.

Edited to add: I looked at the mall directory.  It has only a few stores that would attract upper-income customers.  Dillard’s has moved upscale in the past few years and may have no interest in being a neighbor of the stores that are left.

Edited July 15, 2023 by PuppiesandKittens

[BFG]

I really hope they're working on a dynamite redevelopment plan that they're unveiling by the end of the year. Both of your big boxes left, along with the Apple store and several restaurants. 

[zeppelin14]

City council is truly horrendous. Why do voters keep on electing the same clowns over and over again?

[KJHburg]

so will the city of Norfolk control two malls now MacArthur Center which they owned the land I think already and the Military Circle Mall?  A cautionary tale from Charlotte our Eastland Mall was closed  and was purchased by the city in 2012.  (the mall closed in 2010) all these grandiose ideas came the city's way including a movie studio, an indoor ski slope (and not kidding on any of these) then practice fields for Charlotte FC MLS team.  They pulled out and only after 10 years of sitting idle did something start to happen.  (A charter school was built on the site) Now some housing of various forms is being built but they city council is still debating about 1/3 of the land that was going to be the soccer training facility.  That is where it stands after 11 years.  

Governments move very slowly and and the best scenario would be for the city to sell lots of this land and let the private developers do it or expect a long wait.  (And Charlotte is growing much faster than Norfolk too) and our process for this mall site has been exceedingly slow.  In my opinion they wasted years on crazy proposals like the movie studio where the investors wanted the city to basically build the whole thing for them to use. 

https://charlotte.axios.com/322752/eastland-redevelopment-proposals/

https://www.wcnc.com/article/money/eastland-yards-charlotte-north-carolina-redevelopment-indoor-sports-amphiteater/275-b8ecf068-0111-42c5-9ca5-a5819977f536   people are still upset about this process.

When Durham's South Square Mall closed it was immediately bulldozed and a big box retailers built there.  Dittos for Carolina Circle Mall in Greensboro it was quickly redeveloped compared to our Eastland Mall site.   A mall in Cary suburb of Raleigh was just razed for a new office campus for Epic Games.  

 

Edited July 15, 2023 by KJHburg

[vdogg]

On 7/15/2023 at 7:25 AM, PuppiesandKittens said:

I don’t understand why governments buy malls and kick out retailers or otherwise get retailers to depart: surely even a Dillard’s Clearance Center is better than nothing.  Malls can be redeveloped while leaving anchors in place.

Edited to add: I looked at the mall directory.  It has only a few stores that would attract upper-income customers.  Dillard’s has moved upscale in the past few years and may have no interest in being a neighbor of the stores that are left.

I was totally against a clearance center. A clearance center was only going to prolong the inevitable death. Better to rip the Band-Aid off now, raise It to the ground, and start fresh.

[baobabs727]

I'm sorry, but ye know not what ye do not know. And ye do not know a lot.  Trust. Be very afraid of what ye wish for. 

This is not a good outcome. Reason? This mall... In this market ...in this location ...will not be redeveloped to the best and highest use anytime soon. Not by a long shot. Services provided by Dillard's and others cannot be replicated by local infill tenancy in the meantime. Other inline tenants will now flee who might have otherwise stayed longer. Dillard's said they would stay open, but of course they changed their tune once they saw the $4M.  Simply put, you don't push tenants out and accelerate a Mall's demise when you have no workable plan for the forseeabable future.  Those of you celebrating this event are wrong. I cannot express to you how very wrong you are. 

This is not Charlotte. This is not Raleigh. This is not Jacksonville. This is not Miami. This is not Nashville. This is not Austin. This is not DC.  This is not even Richmond. 

On 7/15/2023 at 7:53 PM, KJHburg said:

so will the city of Norfolk control two malls now MacArthur Center which they owned the land I think already and the Military Circle Mall?  A cautionary tale from Charlotte our Eastland Mall was closed  and was purchased by the city in 2012.  (the mall closed in 2010) all these grandiose ideas came the city's way including a movie studio, an indoor ski slope (and not kidding on any of these) then practice fields for Charlotte FC MLS team.  They pulled out and only after 10 years of sitting idle did something start to happen.  (A charter school was built on the site) Now some housing of various forms is being built but they city council is still debating about 1/3 of the land that was going to be the soccer training facility.  That is where it stands after 11 years.  

Governments move very slowly and and the best scenario would be for the city to sell lots of this land and let the private developers do it or expect a long wait.  (And Charlotte is growing much faster than Norfolk too) and our process for this mall site has been exceedingly slow.  In my opinion they wasted years on crazy proposals like the movie studio where the investors wanted the city to basically build the whole thing for them to use. 

https://charlotte.axios.com/322752/eastland-redevelopment-proposals/

https://www.wcnc.com/article/money/eastland-yards-charlotte-north-carolina-redevelopment-indoor-sports-amphiteater/275-b8ecf068-0111-42c5-9ca5-a5819977f536   people are still upset about this process.

When Durham's South Square Mall closed it was immediately bulldozed and a big box retailers built there.  Dittos for Carolina Circle Mall in Greensboro it was quickly redeveloped compared to our Eastland Mall site.   A mall in Cary suburb of Raleigh was just razed for a new office campus for Epic Games.  

 

I wish you would stick around a bit more.  Everything you say is accurate in my eyes.  And I do not celebrate that fact. But I'd rather walk in Truth and Reality than falter in frustration and suffer in delusion 

Edited July 18, 2023 by baobabs727

[PuppiesandKittens]

On 7/17/2023 at 4:18 PM, vdogg said:

I was totally against a clearance center. A clearance center was only going to prolong the inevitable death. Better to rip the Band-Aid off now, raise It to the ground, and start fresh.

There is a clearance center in Asheville that is an anchor for a newish outlet mall.  Usually a clearance center is headed towards closure, but not always.  Dillard’s clearance centers are great, especially now that the chain has gone way upscale.

[HRVT]

On 7/17/2023 at 4:18 PM, vdogg said:

I was totally against a clearance center. A clearance center was only going to prolong the inevitable death. Better to rip the Band-Aid off now, raise It to the ground, and start fresh.

Absolutely! A clearance center is OK for a small suburban mall that is dying a slow death, but has no other real demand/use for that land at that point in time,

Pretty much right in the middle of downtown, surely there is SOME better use for that land. Whether it be apartments with a mixed use on the bottom floor maybe or offices or hotels.... that is a giant footprint that can actually be used for something that improves downtown rather than continuing to be a slowly decaying relic from days of yore.

[baobabs727]

2 hours ago, HRVT said:

Absolutely! A clearance center is OK for a small suburban mall that is dying a slow death, but has no other real demand/use for that land at that point in time,

Pretty much right in the middle of downtown, surely there is SOME better use for that land. Whether it be apartments with a mixed use on the bottom floor maybe or offices or hotels.... that is a giant footprint that can actually be used for something that improves downtown rather than continuing to be a slowly decaying relic from days of yore.

Believe you me, the days of yore will be much further, further, further in your rearview by the time this empty, hulking building meets its ultimate repurposing. Enjoy the wait. Here's to hoping I'm wrong. Cheers.

One thing is for certain:  I'm sure Downtowners will NOT enjoy their drive to Dillard's Lynnhaven.  LOL

Edited July 19, 2023 by baobabs727

[mintscraft56]

On 7/17/2023 at 7:41 PM, baobabs727 said:

I'm sorry, but ye know not what ye do not know. And ye do not know a lot.  Trust. Be very afraid of what ye wish for. 

This is not a good outcome. Reason? This mall... In this market ...in this location ...will not be redeveloped to the best and highest use anytime soon. Not by a long shot. Services provided by Dillard's and others cannot be replicated by local infill tenancy in the meantime. Other inline tenants will now flee who might have otherwise stayed longer. Dillard's said they would stay open, but of course they changed their tune once they saw the $4M.  Simply put, you don't push tenants out and accelerate a Mall's demise when you have no workable plan for the forseeabable future.  Those of you celebrating this event are wrong. I cannot express to you how very wrong you are. 

This is not Charlotte. This is not Raleigh. This is not Jacksonville. This is not Miami. This is not Nashville. This is not Austin. This is not DC.  This is not even Richmond. 

I wish you would stick around a bit more.  Everything you say is accurate in my eyes.  And I do not celebrate that fact. But I'd rather walk in Truth and Reality than falter in frustration and suffer in delusion 

It depends on how you want Norfolk to be in the future. What you say is true, however, McArthur Mall has been long dying off since the fall of brick and mortar malls. Having a empty shell of its former self take up space in Downtown is also not a good outcome either. This would have been inevitable. Dillards has been good and all and I wish they would have stayed, but a few hundred of people going there every month is not doing it any good and its probably starting to cost the company money to keep the store open. 

HOWEVER, with this in mind, Downtown is in serious trouble on the retail side of things. Downtown NEEDS a clothing and basic needs store or else its gonna get real annoying for us who live near or in downtown. I dont look forwards to driving miles away just for a new shirt. 

Edited July 20, 2023 by mintscraft56

[urbanlife]

What the city should do is bulldoze the whole mall, garages and all. Reconstruct a new street grid, and then put together a development commission that is in charge of working with developers to get the lots developed. The Dillards building would be a great location for a plaza. The city could work to get something like an Urban Target built to replace the loss of the mall. With having a development commission, they can guide the growth of the area by requiring specific commercial corridors, and even work with developers when it comes to any new garages that would need to be built, though it would be ideal to focus on housing since office towers are becoming relics of American cities.

[BFG]

Norfolk needs to build a mixed-use development that focuses on affordable housing, maybe a hotel, and retail on the ground floor, preferably Target. Make use of the space; you don’t need 30-story high rises (okay maybe one), but something taller than four floors. DC would be the perfect inspiration. 

[zeppelin14]

The purchase of the mall by the city is now complete and the city shockingly has no f---ing idea what to do with the damn thing.

https://www.13newsnow.com/article/news/local/mycity/norfolk/norfolk-finalizes-purchase-macarthur-center-tenants-ask-what-comes-next/291-b9918ba7-238c-41de-9ff4-b20201bdf684

 

[NFKfloodcaptain]

On 8/6/2023 at 10:12 PM, zeppelin14 said:

The purchase of the mall by the city is now complete and the city shockingly has no f---ing idea what to do with the damn thing.

https://www.13newsnow.com/article/news/local/mycity/norfolk/norfolk-finalizes-purchase-macarthur-center-tenants-ask-what-comes-next/291-b9918ba7-238c-41de-9ff4-b20201bdf684

 

They have a plan. The plan is to control the mall and its destiny.  

[baobabs727]

54 minutes ago, NFKfloodcaptain said:

They have a plan. The plan is to control the mall and its destiny.  

With respect, it never ceases to  amaze me that anyone would have any faith/trust in local, unelected bureaucrats (staff) and elected politicians to deftly manage major econ. dev. deals.  However, what really takes the cake is anyone having any faith/trust in a City Council and Mayor with such a long and proven track record of abject ineptitude in such matters...and whose  City Mgr. was recently forced to resign in disgrace!  Indeed, such is the sad story of Kenny Alexander and the Norfolk City Council over the last several years. 

I suppose if YOU are satisfied with this so-called "plan" ...in so much as it...DUH...entails controlling yet another mall--2 of 2 total--in hopes of one day doing sumthinarutherwithit, that is all that matters.   

Edited August 9, 2023 by baobabs727