MacArthur Mall REDEVELOPMENT (Proposed/Planning) City of Norfolk

[mintscraft56]

Well, as I see it, I hope someone buys the land and repurposes it. Its time for the city grid to return. We have already built up our city from  after they ruined it back in the 50-60s. I think its time to greet major developers with open land and lots of space for a new skyline addition. 

As far as the mall's survivability goes, I give it 10 months to 2 and 1/2 years, lets be honest, brick and mortar malls are falling at a sharp decline. However, it seems lynnhaven mall has been doing outstanding for the current time. 

[HRVT]

On 1/30/2023 at 12:13 PM, mintscraft56 said:

Well, as I see it, I hope someone buys the land and repurposes it. Its time for the city grid to return. We have already built up our city from  after they ruined it back in the 50-60s. I think its time to greet major developers with open land and lots of space for a new skyline addition. 

As far as the mall's survivability goes, I give it 10 months to 2 and 1/2 years, lets be honest, brick and mortar malls are falling at a sharp decline. However, it seems lynnhaven mall has been doing outstanding for the current time. 

There's still a space for brick and mortar retail.

But Hampton Roads doesn't need 8 malls. 1 in North Hampton Roads and 2 (maybe 3) in South Hampton Roads is perfect. MacArthur as it is is a waste of space. Let Lynnhaven take the lead for brick and mortar retail in VB/Norfolk and let downtown Norfolk take the lead in high rise development.

Now if only there were some public transportation that VB could implement that could get folks easily/conveniently from downtown Norfolk to Lynnhaven and other places... like a train if you will.

[mintscraft56]

On 1/31/2023 at 2:38 PM, HRVT said:

There's still a space for brick and mortar retail.

But Hampton Roads doesn't need 8 malls. 1 in North Hampton Roads and 2 (maybe 3) in South Hampton Roads is perfect. MacArthur as it is is a waste of space. Let Lynnhaven take the lead for brick and mortar retail in VB/Norfolk and let downtown Norfolk take the lead in high rise development.

Now if only there were some public transportation that VB could implement that could get folks easily/conveniently from downtown Norfolk to Lynnhaven and other places... like a train if you will.

Yea...I wonder.

I wish we had a light rail system that stretched from Midtown and Downtown right to the VB border.

[KJHburg]

After visiting on Friday this mall here is my idea.  Sorry if this a repeat of what all of you have said in previous thread but here is what I would do.  The mall needs to be de-malled.  If Dillards wants to stay take off the roof of the current mall space and reduce the retail space greatly.  Increase residential put a high rise tower and midrise components of housing.  Tear down at least one of those huge garages.  Redevelop the Scope arena with a brand new facility.  Include a hotel.  I guess I don't know the ownership of the mall I know when it was developed it was by Taubman but they are long out of the picture.  I would incent the current owner of the mall with tax breaks and property tax breaks.  This mall is huge and can't easily be converted into anything else like office space since that market has changed drastically.  Even health care uses would be good.  But this is holding downtown back as it is currently is.   Downtown urban malls are tough in the best of environments and now are even tougher.  People feel more comfortable in open air mixed use centers.  

[HRVA]

40 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

After visiting on Friday this mall here is my idea.  Sorry if this a repeat of what all of you have said in previous thread but here is what I would do.  The mall needs to be de-malled.  If Dillards wants to stay take off the roof of the current mall space and reduce the retail space greatly.  Increase residential put a high rise tower and midrise components of housing.  Tear down at least one of those huge garages.  Redevelop the Scope arena with a brand new facility.  Include a hotel.  I guess I don't know the ownership of the mall I know when it was developed it was by Taubman but they are long out of the picture.  I would incent the current owner of the mall with tax breaks and property tax breaks.  This mall is huge and can't easily be converted into anything else like office space since that market has changed drastically.  Even health care uses would be good.  But this is holding downtown back as it is currently is.   Downtown urban malls are tough in the best of environments and now are even tougher.  People feel more comfortable in open air mixed use centers.  

The Virginian Pilot just ran this article  about a successful tax appeal appraisal that showed the mall has lost over $100 million in value. The current tax assessment is now lower than the land assessment in 2019 - maybe if Wells Fargo is willing to let go of it for the assessed value we could actually see something happen. 

[BFG]

On 5/6/2023 at 8:55 AM, HRVA said:

The Virginian Pilot just ran this article  about a successful tax appeal appraisal that showed the mall has lost over $100 million in value. The current tax assessment is now lower than the land assessment in 2019 - maybe if Wells Fargo is willing to let go of it for the assessed value we could actually see something happen. 

Per WAVY, it looks like they may do just that… 

https://twitter.com/bretthnews/status/1666105221750112256?s=46&t=u12nwfmvnTMIWsNINFzrgg

#BREAKING Tomorrow @NorfolkVA will meet in a special meeting to vote on buying @macarthurcenter for $18M. @WAVY_News

[BeagleAccountant]

1 hour ago, BFG said:

Per WAVY, it looks like they may do just that… 

https://twitter.com/bretthnews/status/1666105221750112256?s=46&t=u12nwfmvnTMIWsNINFzrgg

#BREAKING Tomorrow @NorfolkVA will meet in a special meeting to vote on buying @macarthurcenter for $18M. @WAVY_News

I know it would need to go to referendum and there are a ton of potential uses for this property, including an arena. But MacArthur could be quickly retrofitted into a casino.

[baobabs727]

https://www.virginiabusiness.com/article/norfolk-eyes-18m-purchase-of-macarthur-center-mall/?oly_enc_id=8808C4460578J1S

PROCEED:   CAREFULLY.  CALMLY.  DELIBERATIVELY.  TRANPARENTLY. COLLABORATIVELY.  STRATEGICALLY. RESPECTFULLY.   

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by baobabs727

[BFG]

I know this sounds like a conspiracy theory, but I wonder what opportunity potentially fell into their lap? You don't just schedule a meeting 24 hours in advance for no reason. It's not like the mall suddenly became available for purchase. Just hope whatever plan they have works out for once. Tired of Norfolk falling apart at the finish line...I see enough of that from my Cowboys. 

[mrobb]

On that same Twitter feed it said that the mayor does NOT intend to redevelop the mall site. Sigh.

[mintscraft56]

3 hours ago, zeppelin14 said:

On that same Twitter feed it said that the mayor does NOT intend to redevelop the mall site. Sigh.

The hell does he want to do with it then? Unless he miraculously revives the mall through divine intervention, I dont see the purpose of keeping it intact the way it is. We are losing businesses there every year and soon with the city owning it, tax money too. 

Edited June 7, 2023 by mintscraft56

[BeagleAccountant]

9 hours ago, mintscraft56 said:

The hell does he want to do with it then? Unless he miraculously revives the mall through divine intervention, I dont see the purpose of keeping it intact the way it is. We are losing businesses there every year and soon with the city owning it, tax money too. 

It gives the city complete control over the future of the property.  And at that price, it's a bargain for such an important plot in our city.

Edited June 7, 2023 by BeagleAccountant

[baobabs727]

Once Norfolk purchases MacArthur Center, be prepared to wait. And wait. And wait some more. Like...just forget about the whole thing. You will have experienced several major life events before anything determinative or transformational happens there.

[brikkman]

3 hours ago, BeagleAccountant said:

It gives the city complete control over the future of the property.  And at that price, it's a bargain for such an important plot in our city.

If SPQ design is any indicator, this will be a disaster whenever they decide to do something.

stripmall and parking lots here we come...

[BeagleAccountant]

52 minutes ago, brikkman said:

If SPQ design is any indicator, this will be a disaster whenever they decide to do something.

stripmall and parking lots here we come...

Whether they do the right thing for the city with the property is a different discussion altogether. It’s still a bargain price for a piece of land that could impact downtown in a big way whether positively or negatively.

[carolinaboy]

Convention Center/Casino/Entertainment/Hotel?

Then update/upgrade Scope completely including a park/greenspace in the plaza surrounding it and update/upgrade Chrysler Hall.

That could become an amazing area.

[BFG]

City Council votes yes, 7-1, with redevelopment in mind. However, MacArthur will remain a mall for the time being. 

https://www.pilotonline.com/2023/06/07/norfolk-city-council-votes-to-spend-18-million-to-buy-macarthur-center-with-goal-of-redevelopment/

[mintscraft56]

If they ever tear down a portion of the mall, I at least want 2 blocks to be reconnected to the city grid and offered up a office tower sites to companies looking for more space and jobs. 

[mintscraft56]

Can you just imagine how dense it could make downtown feel? What our downtown lacks is a proper city center where towers/buildings surround every corner. Infact, with our downtown towers based mostly on Granby and main st in that "L" shape it makes it look like our downtown is pushed on the sidelines if you know what I mean. For ease of understanding I made a picture depicting my view of downtown and its odd shape. 

[baobabs727]

There is no "demand" for a new skyline. Period. Even the late, famed Connecticut developer, Alexius C. Conroy (original partner with Taubman Cos on MacArthur Center), couldn't deliver on the promise of a new skyline for Norfolk.  And that was when times were good! Given the tertiary nature of the HR market today (from a financing perspective especially re: speculative development),  our horribly sluggish job and population growth, and the uncertainty of the future viability of Office (sector) in a post-pandemic world (nationwide, actually), the prospect of razing the mall with the expectation of erecting a "new City" within a City, if you will, is about as realistic as Donald Trump evading an indictment in 2023. 

Edited June 8, 2023 by baobabs727

[BFG]

So what does Norfolk need to do to elevate itself. There’s other cities that don’t have huge skylines or downtowns but still thrive (Tampa and Raleigh come to mind)? How does the Chamber sell this place as having huge potential alongside the military?

[carolinaboy]

1 minute ago, BFG said:

So what does Norfolk need to do to elevate itself. There’s other cities that don’t have huge skylines or downtowns but still thrive (Tampa and Raleigh come to mind)? How does the Chamber sell this place as having huge potential alongside the military?

As far as Raleigh thriving (things that Norfolk doesn't necessarily have):

State capitol

NC State University (major state university, no offense or disrespect intended to Old Dominion)

Research Triangle Park (Tech, Bio/Life Sciences, etc)

Twice the population of Norfolk

Pro sports (Carolina Hurricanes)

Proximity to other major research universities (UNC, Duke)

In most populated county in NC (Wake Co population exceeds Mecklenburg County (home of Charlotte))

Busy airport (RDU, 11.8 million passengers 2022)

Haven't done research but would assume average pay/incomes would be higher in Raleigh.

 

Norfolk has a lot of disadvantages to Raleigh unfortunately. Norfolk needs to do these things IMO:

Continue to expand/improve ORF (might help lure businesses)

Offer density bonuses/tax relief for TOD along the Tide line. It is imperative this corridor be developed/redeveloped with dense urban development.

Keep developing/improving the port facilities

Encourage additional military/marine related business/industry since that is already in the area

Infrastructure (bike lanes, parks, dog parks, playgrounds, libraries, sports fields, pedestrian areas) that makes people want to come to/stay in Norfolk

Capitalize on the waterfront (folks on Charlotte UP wish they had a waterfront/river)

 

 

[KJHburg]

3 hours ago, carolinaboy said:

As far as Raleigh thriving (things that Norfolk doesn't necessarily have):

State capitol

NC State University (major state university, no offense or disrespect intended to Old Dominion)

Research Triangle Park (Tech, Bio/Life Sciences, etc)

Twice the population of Norfolk

Pro sports (Carolina Hurricanes)

Proximity to other major research universities (UNC, Duke)

In most populated county in NC (Wake Co population exceeds Mecklenburg County (home of Charlotte))

Busy airport (RDU, 11.8 million passengers 2022)

Haven't done research but would assume average pay/incomes would be higher in Raleigh.

 

Norfolk has a lot of disadvantages to Raleigh unfortunately. Norfolk needs to do these things IMO:

Continue to expand/improve ORF (might help lure businesses)

Offer density bonuses/tax relief for TOD along the Tide line. It is imperative this corridor be developed/redeveloped with dense urban development.

Keep developing/improving the port facilities

Encourage additional military/marine related business/industry since that is already in the area

Infrastructure (bike lanes, parks, dog parks, playgrounds, libraries, sports fields, pedestrian areas) that makes people want to come to/stay in Norfolk

Capitalize on the waterfront (folks on Charlotte UP wish they had a waterfront/river)

 

 

If I was advising the city I would say tear down at least one of those mega garages and start selling the property for residential development and add a park on the Chrysler side of the mall. Long term the roof needs to come off to make it open air and move existing remaining tenants towards the Dillards side of the mall.  Add a hotel maybe where Nordstrom stood.  But they really need to hire a consultant that can come up with a plan and start selling off some of that land but they do not need to let linger for years and  years.  your waterfront is fantastic and it does create a huge hole in your downtown as someone illustrated above.  Keeping it as a mall for very long is not a good option just not the way people shop now.  Maybe Armada Hoffler would be interest in some of the property.  

[Qdeathstar]

7 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

There is no "demand" for a new skyline. Period. Even the late, famed Connecticut developer, Alexius C. Conroy (original partner with Taubman Cos on MacArthur Center), couldn't deliver on the promise of a new skyline for Norfolk.  And that was when times were good! Given the tertiary nature of the HR market today (from a financing perspective especially re: speculative development),  our horribly sluggish job and population growth, and the uncertainty of the future viability of Office (sector) in a post-pandemic world (nationwide, actually), the prospect of razing the mall with the expectation of erecting a "new City" within a City, if you will, is about as realistic as Donald Trump evading an indictment in 2023. 

Hey, he could die. So it is possible! Oh wait… he was already… damn. RIP New Norfolk Skyline..

 

I like the casino idea.  The pumunkeys obviously don’t have the necessary experience to pull it off….

[mintscraft56]

On 6/8/2023 at 1:50 PM, baobabs727 said:

There is no "demand" for a new skyline. Period. Even the late, famed Connecticut developer, Alexius C. Conroy (original partner with Taubman Cos on MacArthur Center), couldn't deliver on the promise of a new skyline for Norfolk.  And that was when times were good! Given the tertiary nature of the HR market today (from a financing perspective especially re: speculative development),  our horribly sluggish job and population growth, and the uncertainty of the future viability of Office (sector) in a post-pandemic world (nationwide, actually), the prospect of razing the mall with the expectation of erecting a "new City" within a City, if you will, is about as realistic as Donald Trump evading an indictment in 2023. 

Well, we can only hope. The best bet to any of this would be a apartment tower(s) or hotel, however hotels are not in much demand around here as of yet. As far as offices go, good question. Dollar Tree would be the better bet, however, they got their new headquarters in Summit Pointe so im not nearly as hopeful for them either. 

Also, id try avoiding the politics. 

On another note. I dont care what people could say, id still be up for tearing down parts of MacArthur to make way for redevelopment. Because, mind you, I think our city might need a brand spankin new City Hall soon.... We are far to big to have our city hall placed in that ugly tower separated from the rest of Downtown.