Transportation, Infrastructure, and Traffic

[westsider28]

Spartanburg County has a new GIS mapping webpage that shows current infrastructure projects planned and underway.

[westsider28]

The Penny Sales Tax for Roads is on the ballot tomorrow (Tuesday, November 7).  Remember to vote!  I'll be voting YES, as I see this as the least painful way to tackle a huge problem that must be addressed ASAP.  https://www.voteyesspartanburg.com/

[spartanburgh]

Vote NO! County Council just added 15% to our already too high property taxes. The $25 road fee that was imposed for years 

did not yield any noticeable improvement. There are now 30,000 more homes paying property taxes than were paying last time

property taxes were reassessed and the added 15% and they still don't have money?  Obama passed a multi trillion infrastructure 

bill after the fiasco with the Minneapolis interstate bridge collapse plus the lead water in Flint. Did you notice any change? NO! Biden

just passed another multi trillion dollar infrastructure package, will you notice anything different? NO! They will squander and 

waste and try to take credit for paving federal and State roads and squander 90% of the rest. Vote NO!

[vicupstate]

Reassessment does not add more than 1% tax revenue. The millage is rolled back by law to prevent a windfall. 

[mainonmain]

19 minutes ago, spartanburgh said:

Vote NO! County Council just added 15% to our already too high property taxes. The $25 road fee that was imposed for years 

did not yield any noticeable improvement. There are now 30,000 more homes paying property taxes than were paying last time

property taxes were reassessed and the added 15% and they still don't have money?  Obama passed a multi trillion infrastructure 

bill after the fiasco with the Minneapolis interstate bridge collapse plus the lead water in Flint. Did you notice any change? NO! Biden

just passed another multi trillion dollar infrastructure package, will you notice anything different? NO! They will squander and 

waste and try to take credit for paving federal and State roads and squander 90% of the rest. Vote NO!

Yeah dude - like none of what you wrote is remotely true. But go off.

[camtology]

1 hour ago, mainonmain said:

Yeah dude - like none of what you wrote is remotely true. But go off.

As someone who regularly travels between a good many small to midsized cities in South and North Carolina, it is insane to me that anyone could believe that the BBB didn't do anything, most growing cities, despite Covid and inflation on building materials, have one or multiple huge projects and developments in progress. FDR really was the last president to know how to get votes from investing in local economies, he knew he'd have to put his own name on every other project or only the city leaders would get all the praise.

Edited November 7, 2023 by camtology

[mainonmain]

Even more to the point - what the hell do any of those federal spending packages have to do with this continuation of a locally managed 1% sales tax? You want proof it will have an impact and be used for what it is supposed to be used for, on the timeline promised? Just look at that big new courthouse at the corner of Magnolia and St. John, and the new police department just a few blocks up the street from that, and the new EOC building, and the new city-county building that will get underway in a matter of months.

Same funding source. Same folks managing how it is allocated and spent. Just different projects - instead of bricks and mortar, it's going to roads and intersections and bridges.

Comparing this to federal infrastructure bills is sophomoric and intellectually dishonest as hell.

[Historyguy]

6 hours ago, spartanburgh said:

Vote NO! County Council just added 15% to our already too high property taxes. The $25 road fee that was imposed for years 

did not yield any noticeable improvement. There are now 30,000 more homes paying property taxes than were paying last time

property taxes were reassessed and the added 15% and they still don't have money?

I'll be honest, this is a disappointing comment.  I have really come to expect a better informed level of conversation on this site than I get on freaking Nextdoor or Facebook.  The mis-information and dis-information (I can't tell which it is) is pretty deep in this one.   As already noted, your reassessment may have gone up the maximum 15 percent, but that does not mean your property taxes will go up that much.  And yes, presumably those new homes will be adding to the pot.  That said, the road fee only generated, at its peak, $8 million dollars in any one year.  That might pay for 8 or so miles of road improvements.  All of those projects are listed on the county website.  The county has something like 1700 miles of roads.  And they shared some of that revenue with municipalities.  The county only got a couple million from SCDOT, and SCDOT only spends about $20 million a year on road work in the Spartanburg area.  

[gman430]

https://www.wspa.com/news/local-news/spartanburg-co-approves-penny-sales-tax-to-fix-roads/amp/

[westsider28]

According to WSPA, with 99% of precincts reporting, the penny tax for roads has passed!  It will take effect on May 1, 2024 and last for 6 years.

Yes - 18,932 (55.4%);  No - 15,264 (44.6%)

[NotNotSanti]

Good news! 15% for total turnout. 

[Spartan]

I'm excited to see that the tax passed. This is needed work, and I'm glad they're able to move forward with it. I am, however, interested to know why the County should be on the hook for repaving SCDOT roads. Is there some sort of partnership there?  SCDOT has a lot of new $$ with the gas tax increase. I understand prioritization and it takes time to get through 30-40 years of deferred maintenance, but I would love to understand the nature of this, because it feels like we just dont want to wait - which to be fair is a perfectly good answer. I'd just like to see someone official say it if they havent.

[camtology]

18 minutes ago, Spartan said:

I'm excited to see that the tax passed. This is needed work, and I'm glad they're able to move forward with it. I am, however, interested to know why the County should be on the hook for repaving SCDOT roads. Is there some sort of partnership there?  SCDOT has a lot of new $$ with the gas tax increase. I understand prioritization and it takes time to get through 30-40 years of deferred maintenance, but I would love to understand the nature of this, because it feels like we just dont want to wait - which to be fair is a perfectly good answer. I'd just like to see someone official say it if they havent.

Honestly feel that SCDOT having control over certain roads in Spartanburg is a hinderance to the cities growth (especially Church street) if the county is paying to repave and maintain them, the state should give Spartanburg more control over these roads (I.e. the ability to reduce the number of lanes in the CBD area)

[westsider28]

4 hours ago, Spartan said:

I'm excited to see that the tax passed. This is needed work, and I'm glad they're able to move forward with it. I am, however, interested to know why the County should be on the hook for repaving SCDOT roads. Is there some sort of partnership there?  SCDOT has a lot of new $$ with the gas tax increase. I understand prioritization and it takes time to get through 30-40 years of deferred maintenance, but I would love to understand the nature of this, because it feels like we just dont want to wait - which to be fair is a perfectly good answer. I'd just like to see someone official say it if they havent.

I believe they said that SCDOT is contributing in some capacity to repaving the State roads, but I don't know to what degree.  Here's the H-J article.  "Local funds will be added to DOT funds to complete DOT projects 'that otherwise would not be completed.'"  Not too many details, though.   

I agree with @camtology that SCDOT should give us more local control of the roads.  Though I've heard that the City / County doesn't necessarily want to take on the responsibility.

[Spartan]

My understanding is that SCDOT is generally not opposed to giving control to cities/counties, but there's a huge financial burden that comes along with road maintenance which is why local jurisdictions are less inclined to take control. Case in point: the $25 road fee was being used to repair bridges on County-maintained roads. You don't see the impact of that unless you live on the rural roads where the bridges actually are, but the County has to pay for some roads whether you like it or not (hence the property tax increase). Taking over control of SCDOT roads just adds to that burden. The General Assembly already fails to meet its constitutional obligation to disperse $$ to cities/counties as it is, so SCDOT is not likely to partner on projects on local streets that they don't control. Typically the only streets it would make sense to take over are in downtown main street type settings where SCDOT is real hit or miss with good design... and sometimes its a total strikeout.

 

[westsider28]

Spartanburg County is putting together a Safety Action Plan, a data-driven approach that will provide recommendations to the County for adopting new policies and prioritizing infrastructure projects that increase safety for people of all ages and abilities who walk, bike, roll, and drive in Spartanburg County. 

This is essentially a "Vision Zero" plan.  Hopefully this leads to more bike and pedestrian infrastructure.

There's a survey where you can provide your input.  Be sure to do so.  We need to strongly support this effort.

[westsider28]

After years ago proposing some simple right-turn lane additions, SCDOT has now instead concocted an absolutely insane "solution" to traffic at the Reidville Road and Oak Grove / Anderson Mill intersection.  https://sc-296-at-s64-scdot.hub.arcgis.com/pages/overview-of-proejct

They propose eliminating ALL left turns at that intersection and using a new cut-thru road to route traffic around via a series of lefts, rights, and straights.  IMO, this just moves the problem and adds new problems.  And it doesn't account for human behavior (people will be confused and still turn left even more dangerously at the original intersection, they'll cut thru the gas station even more, etc). 

I pass through here every day, and this "solution" is ridiculous.  The real solution is adding other travel options "upstream", such as connecting Caldwell Drive to Reidville, adding an interchange at Old Georgia Rd. and I-26, etc.

Public meeting at West View Elementary on Feb. 6 from 5:00 to 7:00 PM.  Or you can leave comments on the webpage.

[Spartan]

IMO this highlights the biggest problem with Spartanburg County's development code. If you only build single entrance cul-de-sac subdivisions without requiring developers to help expand the street network you end up in situations where you are forced to make awkward fixes. Compound that with 30 years of deferred maintenance and underinvestment by our illustrious General Assembly and you get a wicked set of safety problems and over-engineered solutions.

I think the solution is partly there. Take the lefts away from Anderson Mill Rd to Reidville Rd by adding new connector streets to divert most of the traffic. Something like this:

 

Or better yet, do some actually planning and gradually make this a walkable village center with an actual street grid:

 

[westsider28]

18 hours ago, Spartan said:

IMO this highlights the biggest problem with Spartanburg County's development code. If you only build single entrance cul-de-sac subdivisions without requiring developers to help expand the street network you end up in situations where you are forced to make awkward fixes. Compound that with 30 years of deferred maintenance and underinvestment by our illustrious General Assembly and you get a wicked set of safety problems and over-engineered solutions.

I think the solution is partly there. Take the lefts away from Anderson Mill Rd to Reidville Rd by adding new connector streets to divert most of the traffic. Something like this:

 

Or better yet, do some actually planning and gradually make this a walkable village center with an actual street grid:

 

I agree with you 100% that lack of connectivity is our biggest problem. 

That said, in this particular instance the heaviest movements by far are left from westbound Reidville onto Anderson Mill and left from eastbound Reidville onto Oak Grove.  There are very few lefts from Anderson Mill and Oak Grove onto Reidville.  So I'm not sure your reasonable alternative would help much.  (I'd love to see the full street grid, but alas that's a fantasy.) 

Anyway, that's why my solutions are further away.  I perceive to Oak Grove traffic as coming from Woodridge and Rock Springs residents, thus a new Caldwell Drive connector to Reidville would help.  And a new Old Georgia Road interchange with I-26 would service the new neighborhoods on Anderson Mill Road while also serving the new homes near East Blackstock that clog up the Reidville Road and I-26 interchange right now.

SCDOT doesn't seem to like creating completely new ROW through undeveloped land (eminent domain stigma?), which NCDOT does all the time.  I can't think of single instance of SCDOT doing this in Spartanburg County in my lifetime.  And the County seems to discourage connectivity because they don't want the responsibility of more road maintenance.  The single-entrance subdivisions can be all private roads, which the County seems to prefer.  Obviously this is short-sighted and doesn't actually save money long-term, but that's what they're doing. 

Honestly, the whole situation feels kind of hopeless and spiraling out of control.  The only public outcry is the misguided call to widen the arterials.  I wish we had stronger local urbanism advocacy/leadership here...

[roads-scholar]

5 hours ago, westsider28 said:

I agree with you 100% that lack of connectivity is our biggest problem. 

That said, in this particular instance the heaviest movements by far are left from westbound Reidville onto Anderson Mill and left from eastbound Reidville onto Oak Grove.  There are very few lefts from Anderson Mill and Oak Grove onto Reidville.  So I'm not sure your reasonable alternative would help much.  (I'd love to see the full street grid, but alas that's a fantasy.) 

Anyway, that's why my solutions are further away.  I perceive to Oak Grove traffic as coming from Woodridge and Rock Springs residents, thus a new Caldwell Drive connector to Reidville would help.  And a new Old Georgia Road interchange with I-26 would service the new neighborhoods on Anderson Mill Road while also serving the new homes near East Blackstock that clog up the Reidville Road and I-26 interchange right now.

SCDOT doesn't seem to like creating completely new ROW through undeveloped land (eminent domain stigma?), which NCDOT does all the time.  I can't think of single instance of SCDOT doing this in Spartanburg County in my lifetime.  And the County seems to discourage connectivity because they don't want the responsibility of more road maintenance.  The single-entrance subdivisions can be all private roads, which the County seems to prefer.  Obviously this is short-sighted and doesn't actually save money long-term, but that's what they're doing. 

Honestly, the whole situation feels kind of hopeless and spiraling out of control.  The only public outcry is the misguided call to widen the arterials.  I wish we had stronger local urbanism advocacy/leadership here...

Nothing is hopeless except when dealing with SCDOT.  .  
 

Some ideas:

An Old Georgia Road interchange with I-26.  A no brainer in my judgment.  This was proposed 20 years ago and nixed not by SCDOT but homeowners in the general area.  

Improve the Nazareth Church Road connection between US-29 and Reidville Road.  

improve the Caldwell Road connection between US-29 / Willis Road and Reidville Road.  

None of these ideas will directly impact the Reidville Road / Andersen Mill Road intersection but would provide some relief.

Finally (and I know this will generate some howls) but there should be an additional left turn lane from Westbound Reidville Road to Anderson Mill Road.  Better signaling and signage would also help.  

 

 

 

[westsider28]

Went through there today at 5:30 PM and the right lane of westbound Reidville was backed up to almost the light at Walgreens.  This means that the volume is primarily straight traffic.  I suppose the new plan would allow slightly longer straight cycles at the current intersection, but that would be negated by the new light.  Plus, I guarantee the left turners from eastbound Reidville would back up to the current intersection.  And Oak Grove would back up (like it does now) even with the addition of a right turn lane.  The only real solution is more/better connectivity further out.

 

[westsider28]

On 1/23/2024 at 11:57 AM, westsider28 said:

After years ago proposing some simple right-turn lane additions, SCDOT has now instead concocted an absolutely insane "solution" to traffic at the Reidville Road and Oak Grove / Anderson Mill intersection.  https://sc-296-at-s64-scdot.hub.arcgis.com/pages/overview-of-proejct

They propose eliminating ALL left turns at that intersection and using a new cut-thru road to route traffic around via a series of lefts, rights, and straights.  IMO, this just moves the problem and adds new problems.  And it doesn't account for human behavior (people will be confused and still turn left even more dangerously at the original intersection, they'll cut thru the gas station even more, etc). 

I pass through here every day, and this "solution" is ridiculous.  The real solution is adding other travel options "upstream", such as connecting Caldwell Drive to Reidville, adding an interchange at Old Georgia Rd. and I-26, etc.

Public meeting at West View Elementary on Feb. 6 from 5:00 to 7:00 PM.  Or you can leave comments on the webpage.

I went to this public meeting. A huge number of people attended, and the vast majority were against this plan.  Talking with SCDOT reps, it's clear they aren't thinking of the network as a whole.  They're just trying to tackle each problem in isolation, which is a losing proposition.  Some people asked, "what if this plan fails?" and the only response was "build a bridge".  The "highway mentality" is so pervasive in SCDOT...

On another note, City Council will get an update on the Spartanburg Downtown Transportation Plan at Monday's meeting (which will be held at County Council chambers).  It says "Recommendations, funding, implementation plan" for February (this meeting?).  Draft Report in March, and Final Report in April.  It will be interesting to see what their findings / recommendations are.

[westsider28]

Some Downtown Transportation Plan notes: people want better safety at pedestrian street crossings like on Church Street, other areas of concern include trucks on Pine Street, timing the intersections when you press the button for walking, and striping.  Early recommendations are signage, sprucing up downtown corridors and cutting some lanes from 4 to 2, making room for wider sidewalks. (great to hear)

Councilor Fulmer commented about focusing on safety on Pine Street.  Councilor Rain wants to calm traffic on Church Street and make it more pedestrian friendly.  Councilor Littlejohn hopes to create a bus route along Union or Pine to the Ingles or Walmart to help with grocery store access. (an excellent idea)

Once the full report is out, there will be public input to help City Council decide the prioritization of the various elements.

City article    Fox Carolina story    WSPA story

[camtology]

16 minutes ago, westsider28 said:

Some Downtown Transportation Plan notes: people want better safety at pedestrian street crossings like on Church Street, other areas of concern include trucks on Pine Street, timing the intersections when you press the button for walking, and striping.  Early recommendations are signage, sprucing up downtown corridors and cutting some lanes from 4 to 2, making room for wider sidewalks. (great to hear)

Councilor Fulmer commented about focusing on safety on Pine Street.  Councilor Rain wants to calm traffic on Church Street and make it more pedestrian friendly.  Councilor Littlejohn hopes to create a bus route along Union or Pine to the Ingles or Walmart to help with grocery store access. (an excellent idea)

Once the full report is out, there will be public input to help City Council decide the prioritization of the various elements.

City article    Fox Carolina story    WSPA story

particularly for Union St. I think this is a great time to use it as an experiment for new kinds of transportation usage in the city. Particularly I think it would be a great place to test out the usage of a trolley (bus would be fairly similar) due to the openness of what can be developed there and the relative closeness of the downtown

[hub-city]

There is a new sign on Daniel Morgan down near the car dealerships saying "New Traffic Pattern Coming Soon".  Rumor is a road diet for that area.  it was discussed years ago, but I can't remember anything lately.  (but I'm old and can barely remember yesterday...)  Any details?