Transportation, Infrastructure, and Traffic

[Spartan]

There are several counties in SC that have a penny tax for roads. York, Richland, Berkeley, I think Charleston, and maybe some others. I would be interested to see what they propose to use it for, specifically. The County maintains a lot of roads and bridges, but SCDOT maintains a lot more. 

A penny tax would give the county more leverage to issue bonds to pay for road projects and, perhaps more importantly, position them to take advantage of the large amounts of grant funding coming from the federal government for at least the next 5-6 years from the transportation bill that was recently passed.

The County could opt to fund some of the projects identified in the SPATS LRTP or Bike/Ped Plan. They won't be able to advance any projects not on that list without an adopted planning process. It seems likely if it passes they would want to spend some $ to update the transportation plan first.

[Sparkleman]

Just fixing all roads within a 5 miles radius of Pine/Main would be a good start.

[NotNotSanti]

Chris Story mentioned today that the new iteration is expected to gather $400M in funds vs. the $250M of the current one.

That's quite the testament to our achieved + expected growth.

Now to figure out where the remaining funds would come in from!

[camtology]

2 hours ago, NotNotSanti said:

Chris Story mentioned today that the new iteration is expected to gather $400M in funds vs. the $250M of the current one.

That's quite the testament to our achieved + expected growth.

Now to figure out where the remaining funds would come in from!

Spartanburg will not only grow on its own but seems to be benefiting from the growth of both Charlotte and Atlanta, as a more affordable city in between the two any development in our transportation infrastructure, from roads to even high speed rail in the future, will mean that the penny sales tax will likely bring an increasing amount of revenue each year it is in action

[NotNotSanti]

The speed rail trail will make commuting from Greenville/Spartanburg to Atlanta/Charlotte so much more viable! I still wish both Greenville and Spartanburg could have gotten their own dedicated spots, but given the nature of the thing and the terrain, it makes sense that they should have gone with the Greenville-Spartanburg international airport option. 

 

[Spartan]

I disagree. Who wants to go to the airport to take a train? I would never take a train from Charlotte to GSP, then rent a car/uber/bus or whatever 30 mins back into town. It only takes an hour to drive there in the first place! Trains should be more convenient than flying. That's how they compete. Then we use that as a new economic driver to catalyze more walkable development in downtown.

The cities that will "win" with high speed rail are those with train stations in or very close to the core of their populations. South Carolina is going to lose out on this one unless the station locations change. If SC gets one stop, it should be Greenville. If two, add Spartanburg. FYI, most of the cities of any size are getting stations in NC, and most of those in historic downtown areas.

Maybe it doesn't matter. This is still probably 30+ years away barring a major change in funding from the federal government.

[gman430]

We will all be dead before high speed rail happens here unless it’s privately funded. The interstates will also have to be 30 lanes wide first like you see in Atlanta. Moot point talking about it. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by gman430

[Spartan]

^No argument.

 

In other news, I have read about this effort to get tanker trucks off of Pine Street (which is just as futile as the HSR, IMO.) ... But the interesting tidbit is that SPATS may be looking at a new "truck bypass road." I'm assuming that means on the east side somewhere. It's apparently on a SPATS project list (the study), the priority of which might be influenced by the downtown transportation study.

https://www.goupstate.com/story/news/local/2023/04/11/spartanburg-residents-want-tanker-trucks-rerouted-from-pine-street/70045524007/

[Spartan]

One more comment: We might be able to dive into the project list a bit more, but SPATS hasn't published a TIP since 2019.

[westsider28]

1 hour ago, Spartan said:

One more comment: We might be able to dive into the project list a bit more, but SPATS hasn't published a TIP since 2019.

Here's the SPATS 2023 TIP update (includes RAISE trail planned route)

All current docs here: https://spatsmpo.com/259/Current-Public-Documents

Edited April 12, 2023 by westsider28

[camtology]

21 hours ago, NotNotSanti said:

The speed rail trail will make commuting from Greenville/Spartanburg to Atlanta/Charlotte so much more viable! I still wish both Greenville and Spartanburg could have gotten their own dedicated spots, but given the nature of the thing and the terrain, it makes sense that they should have gone with the Greenville-Spartanburg international airport option. 

 

I've been thinking the upstate could work on bringing something like the old passenger rail system that existed in the early 20th century back. the GSP would connect the high speed rail to local passenger rail that would connect at least spartanburg, greer, and greenville

[NotNotSanti]

5 hours ago, camtology said:

I've been thinking the upstate could work on bringing something like the old passenger rail system that existed in the early 20th century back. the GSP would connect the high speed rail to local passenger rail that would connect at least spartanburg, greer, and greenville

I've daydreamed along those lines also!

[westsider28]

With basically zero support for passenger rail from the State or the railroad owners (NS and CSX), a dream is all it will be for the foreseeable future.

What could be more likely is Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) between Greenville and Spartanburg via Highway 29.  Charleston is currently in the process of planning a 21-mile BRT line (Lowcountry Rapid Transit) which is similar in length and character to what a GSP line could be.  I'd like to see steps taken to start making something like that a reality here.  It's much more realistic and could actually happen sometime in the next ~20 years with proper advocacy and a mix of funding sources.

Existing right-of-way on Highway 29 is extremely wide; plenty wide to accommodate BRT with no new acquisitions needed (which would lower costs and speed up the timeline).  For example, in Lyman:

[NotNotSanti]

Huh! I had ruled out a bus solution based on thinking it would not work on I-85, but you are right - there is potential to do it on Highway 29. Time to look for a place to plant that seed of an idea! Do you know if it's ever been brought up as a possibility these last few years at any official level?

[camtology]

20 hours ago, NotNotSanti said:

Huh! I had ruled out a bus solution based on thinking it would not work on I-85, but you are right - there is potential to do it on Highway 29. Time to look for a place to plant that seed of an idea! Do you know if it's ever been brought up as a possibility these last few years at any official level?

would also love a trolley system like they have in knoxville, its really buses that look like trolleys but the ability to have shuttle transit between the major pedestrian areas would be very helpful especially if the colleges were included within the routes

[drexel]

A  while back I took the train from Charlotte to High Point, NC.  This Amtrak train subsidized by  NC  runs multiple times a day between Charlotte and Raleigh.  The train was relatively crowded.  I did not need it but a shuttle bus was at the High Point station going to Winston Salem.  Charlotte to Atlanta several times a day with  bus service from GSP to Spartanburg and Greenville makes sense and would be well received. IMHO 

Edited April 14, 2023 by drexel

[Spartan]

IMO the biggest challenge to BRT is that the land uses outside of downtown Greenville and downtown Spartanburg are super auto-oriented. Without more walkable design, it will be harder to develop ridership.

[westsider28]

Surprised no one mentioned the two big articles about the potential penny-tax for roads.  The Post and Courier and the Herald-Journal both had articles that gave a bit more detail on what projects might be undertaken with the funding:

➤ S.C. Department of Transportation asphalt pavement improvements, $157 million.

➤ County asphalt pavement improvements, $165 million.

➤ Intersection improvements, $42 million.

➤ County corridor reconstruction, $40 million.

➤ Stormwater improvement, $28 million.

➤ Bridge replacement, $23 million.

➤ Municipal paving, $12 million.

➤ County safety and other improvements, $9 million.

The P&C article goes on to say that specific projects could be  "asphalt repaving [of] an 11-mile stretch of U.S. Highway 29 from John B. White Sr. Blvd. in Spartanburg to the Cherokee County line." ($22M), "six-mile stretch of Reidville Road from S.C. Highway 290 to S.C. Highway 295" ($14M), and "thirteen miles of Southport Road from S.C. Highway 215 to U.S. Highway 176 southeast of Spartanburg" ($25M).  Also, "recommended projects include 14 intersection improvements, 10 bridge replacements and 30 storm water infrastructure upgrades."

As I suspected, the impact is likely to be somewhat disappointing.  This is definitely "catch-up" funding/projects, not "prep for the future" funding/projects.

[Spartan]

Thanks for posting that!

Did they not reference a single penny for pedestrians or cyclists?

Its a shame the General Assembly has let our roads deteriorate to the point that we have to spend basically ALL of our (hypothetical) local road money on maintenance.

[westsider28]

Here is a list of all the planned projects to be funded by a potential extension of the penny sales tax beyond 2024.  I found it in the City Council agenda for Monday (6/12).

Penny Roads project list.pdf

I haven't had time to read the whole thing, but skimming over it seems to show vast majority repaving (including neighborhood streets like Drayton, which I thought was already funded through normal means?); "intersection improvements" (no mention of what these improvements would entail); and bridge rebuilding.  It's broken down into 6 tiers with specific dollar amounts for each.  Read through and see what you think.

[westsider28]

On 6/9/2023 at 6:03 PM, westsider28 said:

Here is a list of all the planned projects to be funded by a potential extension of the penny sales tax beyond 2024.  I found it in the City Council agenda for Monday (6/12).

Penny Roads project list.pdf 1.01 MB · 8 downloads

I haven't had time to read the whole thing, but skimming over it seems to show vast majority repaving (including neighborhood streets like Drayton, which I thought was already funded through normal means?); "intersection improvements" (no mention of what these improvements would entail); and bridge rebuilding.  It's broken down into 6 tiers with specific dollar amounts for each.  Read through and see what you think.

The penny tax for roads referendum is moving closer to November ballot.  County Council approved first reading on the measure to place it on the ballot at Monday's normal meeting, then approved second reading at a special meeting on Wednesday.  There will be the usual public comment opportunity at the meeting where third reading will be held (presumably their normal August meeting).

I created a Google Map based on the projects listed in the PDF, so I could visualize the location and extent of the projects.  Take a look and see what you think:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1vjEnKIYI7rDgSYuadC48FltewSNLfIw&usp=sharing

[Spartan]

Gold start for creating that map westsider!

The County could/should do a much better job explaining what all is in there. Also, I guarantee you they have a map somewhere of these things... not just a list.

The only thing that sough about that list is that of all the streets I'm most familiar with in Spartanburg, many of them are on that list. What would be great is if they shared at laest part of the prioritization methodology. What is a tier 3 vs 4? Why is that differentiation important? How do these relate to the State's resurfacing plan with the new gas tax $$? Why are we paying to resurface like 10 miles of highway 29 through town when SCDOT should be doing it?

 

[Spartan]

Also, just some educated guesses:

Intersection projects that cost ~$500k are probably adding mast arms or upgrading traffic signal technology, possibly adding ADA features to traffic signals. Could also include other ADA features (like wheelchair ramps, etc)

$1m-$2m dollars are probably adding left or right turn lanes, adding mast arms, and/or traffic signal signal tech - maybe getting into geometric modifications. This could mean changing where the streets intersect or how they intersect to improve sight distances, reduce crashes, adding splitter islands, ped countdown timers, ADA features, etc.)

[westsider28]

17 hours ago, Spartan said:

Gold start for creating that map westsider!

The County could/should do a much better job explaining what all is in there. Also, I guarantee you they have a map somewhere of these things... not just a list.

The only thing that sough about that list is that of all the streets I'm most familiar with in Spartanburg, many of them are on that list. What would be great is if they shared at laest part of the prioritization methodology. What is a tier 3 vs 4? Why is that differentiation important? How do these relate to the State's resurfacing plan with the new gas tax $$? Why are we paying to resurface like 10 miles of highway 29 through town when SCDOT should be doing it?

I'm not sure why certain projects are in each tier, but I believe the tiers are chronological (i.e. Tier 1 is year 1 of the tax, and so on).  As far as SCDOT's responsibility, this HJ article says that despite their increased funding, many of these resurfacings either don't have a timeline at the State level or that this local funding would simply accelerate the timeline. "Local funds will be added to DOT funds to complete DOT projects 'that otherwise would not be completed'."  "Projects were identified that are not in the DOT's planning horizon – meaning there is currently no funding within the upcoming six-year planning window to complete the DOT pavement projects listed."

I do wish there were more details available to the public.  Another question is what influence, if any, will municipalities have?  There's a separate "$12,334,728 for city and town road improvement, repaving, and resurfacing projects" that seems to have no specific projects identified (or even a breakdown of which municipalities get what).  And is there any room for changing the cross-section/striping of certain roads? (i.e. East Main from Converse to East Saint John downtown is on the repaving list. Could we please get restriping with fewer car lanes and buffered bike lanes as part of the resurfacing?)

I feel like we're so far behind that we have to approve this, even if it's underwhelming. IDK. I have mixed feelings.

[westsider28]

County Council is having a special meeting Tuesday, August 8 at 2:00 pm to hold a public hearing and vote on third-and-final reading on the motion to place the penny sales tax extension for roads on the November ballot.  Apparently, a notice about this meeting was in the 7/23 issue of the Herald-Journal, but I missed it.  Not to mention the larger issue: that notice in a paper of (far) less than 10,000-readership in a county of 345,000 should NOT suffice as "public notice" (and the online agenda was only posted today; ONE day in advance...)