500 2nd Ave. South, 39 story residential; 29 story hotel; 32 story residential on full 3.4 acre block (Cumulus Radio site)

[nashville born]

Can you imagine if that barren lot at the corner of Hermitage and Lea developed even at 16-20 stories.  CL would be all but surrounded.

Come out with your hands up!

Edited August 11, 2022 by nashville born

[Luvemtall]

7 hours ago, nashville born said:

Can you imagine if that barren lot at the corner of Hermitage and Lea developed even at 16-20 stories.  CL would be all but surrounded.

Come out with your hands up!

If memory serves me right, MDHA is suggesting that lot be developed with a tower of 30+ stories. Can someone in the know comment on this? 

[smeagolsfree]

12 hours ago, Luvemtall said:

If memory serves me right, MDHA is suggesting that lot be developed with a tower of 30+ stories. Can someone in the know comment on this? 

I would have to go back and look but I think the max there is 12 but may only be 8.

[Bos2Nash]

EDIT: My bad, wrong parcel.  The Hermitage and Lea site is limited to 65' at the street and then can grow taller as it steps back from the street. While technically there is not a traditional "max height", there comes a point that the footprint of the building when factoring this control becomes unusable.

On 8/12/2022 at 7:29 AM, smeagolsfree said:

I would have to go back and look but I think the max there is 12 but may only be 8.

This parcel actually falls into the SoBro subdistrict. General subdistrict with a base zoning of 30 floors and unlimited bonus height. It is in the T6 Downtown Neighborhood Community Plan (same as 2nd and Peabody and 500 2nd Ave), but due to the DTC already granting the building height a future development should not need as many hurdles as the major projects just south of Peabody.

MDHA is probably going to want a PRETTY PENNY (justifiably) for either buying for ground leasing this parcel!

Edited August 16, 2022 by Bos2Nash
my bad, wrong parcel!

[titanhog]

6 hours ago, Bos2Nash said:

EDIT: My bad, wrong parcel.  The Hermitage and Lea site is limited to 65' at the street and then can grow taller as it steps back from the street. While technically there is not a traditional "max height", there comes a point that the footprint of the building when factoring this control becomes unusable.

This parcel actually falls into the SoBro subdistrict. General subdistrict with a base zoning of 30 floors and unlimited bonus height. It is in the T6 Downtown Neighborhood Community Plan (same as 2nd and Peabody and 500 2nd Ave), but due to the DTC already granting the building height a future development should not need as many hurdles as the major projects just south of Peabody.

MDHA is probably going to want a PRETTY PENNY (justifiably) for either buying for ground leasing this parcel!

What are your thoughts on all of Nashville height restrictions in the inner loop?  Are most of them head-scratchers…or do you feel they have merit?  From the outside looking in, most of them seem arbitrary to me…but maybe there’s a good reason?

[smeagolsfree]

On 8/12/2022 at 7:29 AM, smeagolsfree said:

I would have to go back and look but I think the max there is 12 but may only be 8.

Confusion on my part. I thought we were talking about the parcels where the Shell station is and up Hermitage. The MDHA lot is 30!

[Luvemtall]

Yep, I’m thinking I was a bit confused myself. I was thinking Nashville Born was talking about that MDHA lot on the corner. But anyway any of those properties along Hermitage get developed, even at the allowable heights will block out views for City Lights. So the three musketeers, better have a whole lot of money to fight off the inevitable development that eventually will come. They most likely will be surrounded by as tall or taller buildings as theirs.

[nashville born]

1 hour ago, smeagolsfree said:

Confusion on my part. I thought we were talking about the parcels where the Shell station is and up Hermitage. The MDHA lot is 30!

No, you were correct.  I wasn't referring to the Hermitage/KVB lot.  You guys have always said that one was zoned for 30 stories.  I was referring to this one.

41 minutes ago, Luvemtall said:

Yep, I’m thinking I was a bit confused myself. I was thinking Nashville Born was talking about that MDHA lot on the corner. But anyway any of those properties along Hermitage get developed, even at the allowable heights will block out views for City Lights. So the three musketeers, better have a whole lot of money to fight off the inevitable development that eventually will come. They most likely will be surrounded by as tall or taller buildings as theirs.

And if this one developed, CL would be just about tapped out.

[nashvylle]

11 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

MDHA is probably going to want a PRETTY PENNY (justifiably) for either buying for ground leasing this parcel!

I hope so. Still can't believe the lowball offer they accepted for Rolling Mill Hill. 

[Luvemtall]

56 minutes ago, nashville born said:

No, you were correct.  I wasn't referring to the Hermitage/KVB lot.  You guys have always said that one was zoned for 30 stories.  I was referring to this one.

OH, THAT ONE!!! Yeah that would be the topping on the cake, Completely surrounded .

Question is, if they have so much money to keep paying legal fees, then why not just move? They have got to know , development is coming and sooner or later they will be surrounded by other buildings 

[Bos2Nash]

On 8/16/2022 at 8:45 PM, titanhog said:

What are your thoughts on all of Nashville height restrictions in the inner loop?  Are most of them head-scratchers…or do you feel they have merit?  From the outside looking in, most of them seem arbitrary to me…but maybe there’s a good reason?

It kinda depends. I'm not a huge driver for height honestly, if it is a well designed building and serves a purpose then I am all for it. To a certain extent I see some folks desire at height as a bit vein and austentacious.

To answer your question specifically toward the inner loop though, I do not think they are arbitrary no. Planning is a very difficult job to do and when the DTC and Community Plans were being developed it was really hard to forecast how well the city was going to do based on historical events. I do think the Community Plan for Downtown and the DTC should be revised, but it is not as easy as having Planning say "go". It is probably a 6 to 12 month process of community meetings to revise the community plans and then a separate whole process for the Downtown Code.

My thoughts would be that the unlimited height (30 floors with unlimited Bonus Height) could be revised to the red outline below. This is based on the direction in which developers are seeing the value of land and how things have moved throughout this boom. Ultimately a move like this would drive up land costs even more, which would probably drive developers to look at parcels close to this zone, but not directly in it in order to find the next "diamond in the rough" that could provide the largest ROI. The same system of rezoning those parcels would still be in place though and developers would have to jump through the hoops that are required.

Looking at a higher elevation though, We can surround that unlimited height area with different zones. BLUE is the unlimited zone I mention above. GREEN is a transition zone that would set a minimum height requirement with a ceiling height of around 30 stories (if developers want higher they can ask for it and provide community benefits). RED is the zone around the state capital and Bicentennial that I think is our culture center where we don't need to the density. PURPLE is the direction we are seeing our skyline grow the highest at the current moment and I think if we stretch our 30 stories cap out toward Centennial with a transition zone abutting the park. ORANGE I would be very carful with due to the country's history with redlining and how this area was essentially artificially depressed through hostile zoning laws. An immediate upzone of this area has the high risk of land that otherwise would not be developed or is still currently affordable and make it very expensive very quickly. This could run the line of Urban Renewal in that area and create a whole different type of redlining. North of Jefferson is a no go in my opinion at the moment. Too much established neighborhoods/communities. Developments along the edges could be beneficial (think Neuoff), but in the heart of them I just don't think works at the moment. Railyard, Napier/Trevecca/WeHo all have potential to develop (or continue developing) but our skyline isn't moving that direction currently zone I don't think the height should necessarily move that direction yet. The Railyard district is the most viable area to move and would work very well with my proposed improvement of the WeGo Star.

While architectural reading is not the greatest, Kevin Lynch's "The City Image and its Elements" - specifically the notions of Paths, Edges, Districts, Nodes, Landmarks - are really helpful in thinking about how cities can be formed. Things may feel arbitrary to some, but folks that live and breathe this stuff always find reasons for what we do. 

There is more to life than building tall buildings for the sake of tall buildings.

[colemangaines]

58 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

There is more to life than building tall buildings for the sake of tall buildings.

Totally agree. I think a lot of it is compensating for a lack of missing middle housing. Look at Brooklyn for example, you have 2.7 million people living in 97 sq. mi. with relatively few skyscrapers compared to Nashville's 700k people living in 525 sq. mi. I know a lot of that is due to the consolidated city-county government, but the wide prevalence of row houses, townhomes, low-rise condo buildings, etc. does wonders to pack people in. That's why I'd much prefer more projects like Capitol View or all the mixed use/residential going up in Wedgewood-Houston. Make the entire city a bit more urban, dense, and livable instead of cramming everything into a dozen blocks downtown surrounded by SFH like some cities do.

[nashville born]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion.  I won't presume someone else's because I don't know.  What I do know is my own.  I like height.  Not because of vanity or because I like ostentatious things.  I like height because taller buildings, by their very nature, stand out and make a skyline more prominent (generally speaking).  I don't want every building to be tall for the same reasons I don't want every building to be a 250' box.  I like visual variety.  I think it adds to the beauty of a skyline.  IMO, if Nashville had 50 skyscrapers in downtown and all 50 were 300', that would not be visually stunning to me.  Likewise, if all 50 were 700', that wouldn't be stunning either.  It just so happens that currently, the majority of our existing and announced projects are of moderate and similar heights.  So, yes, I clamor for height, but not just for height's sake.  I do it because I long for that visual variety that comes with a diversity of heights. 

I enjoy looking at a beautiful skyline and it's my desire to have that in Nashville.  

Edited August 18, 2022 by nashville born

[Armacing]

On 8/18/2022 at 9:54 AM, Bos2Nash said:

There is more to life than building tall buildings for the sake of tall buildings.

Dude, true happiness comes from learning to enjoy buildings that are out of context!  

Now let's build a 700-footer at the intersection of Rosa Parks and Jefferson street!!

[smeagolsfree]

2 hours ago, Armacing said:

Dude, true happiness comes from learning to enjoy buildings that are out of context!  

Now let's build a 700-footer at the intersection of Rosa Parks and Jefferson street!!

That will really drive the neighbors crazy especially since they killed a 10-story building.

[colemangaines]

On 8/19/2022 at 11:14 AM, Armacing said:

Now let's build a 700-footer at the intersection of Rosa Parks and Jefferson street!!

I would 100% prefer that to an empty lot. The 10 story proposal would've been perfect though.

What a lot of these people don't realize (looking at you city lights) is if you get these projects delayed or canceled, including this one at the Cumulus site, it just means it'll likely come back as something even bigger in 5-10 years. If the naysayers had gotten this project canceled but everything from KVB to the highway was built out as proposed, it would make this lot a prime spot for a 700 or 800 ft tower.

[Rick Dalton]

They probably just want to delay long enough to sell their condo to an uninformed buyer 

[nashville born]

Dreaming of the day we see movement here and across the street at Park Place.  Would love to see both and Peabody Union racing each other into the sky.

[Deangelo]

28 minutes ago, nashville born said:

Dreaming of the day we see movement here and across the street at Park Place.  Would love to see both and Peabody Union racing each other into the sky.

I hope Park Place and the Cumulus Project gets built.  I think both projects add nice architecture to the Nashville skyline. Both projects also give the skyline something different and would make the rolling mill area alot more interesting 

[smeagolsfree]

This projects SP is up for a consent vote Thursday at the Planning meeting. Even if the CL folks sue this bunch too, there is a flaw with their law suit I just thought about.

They were suing originally saying that Planning did not have the authority to do what they did when they did it. If both of these SP's get through planning, they have to go through Council and a full vote. If the full council votes on both of these the grounds for the original lawsuit will be null and void because the entire council will have voted and will most likely pass it as it will become LAW.

They will have zero if any recourse.

[nashwatcher]

30 minutes ago, smeagolsfree said:

This projects SP is up for a consent vote Thursday at the Planning meeting. Even if the CL folks sue this bunch too, there is a flaw with their law suit I just thought about.

They were suing originally saying that Planning did not have the authority to do what they did when they did it. If both of these SP's get through planning, they have to go through Council and a full vote. If the full council votes on both of these the grounds for the original lawsuit will be null and void because the entire council will have voted and will most likely pass it as it will become LAW.

They will have zero if any recourse.

What odds you give this project Smeags? Seems like the delay and increase in rates could put it at risk?

[smeagolsfree]

Both projects are moving forward with SP’s (specific Plans) which is a good sign, otherwise I don’t think they would be doing that. The fact that both of these projects are hotel/residential bodes better for them as there is no office involved. Office seems a little iffy right now.

Residential is hot in Nashville right now and both projects have condo elements and I think pre-sales should do well. The things that have hurt them are interest rates and some construction cost have gone up, but I am hearing some construction cost may start coming down.

With condos interest rates will hurt potential buyers too.

Interested to get some other thoughts too.

[downtownresident]

The SP passed at the Planning Commission today. This now moves onto Council. 

[smeagolsfree]

DT Resident alerted me to a development in the lawsuit yesterday. Checked it out and this is what we found out......Checked on this. Dismissed in part and allowed to continue in part. But the judge basically said you can't sue until Council approves/denies the SP zoning so there's no point in litigating this right now. 

Again, with that being said their whole premise of the first lawsuit was not being passed by the entire council. They can't decide what they want, so I think the whole thing will eventually be thrown out. The lawyer seems to be a nummynut. I was wondering why he was so quick to sue myself on the SP as it had not even passed. They are suffering defeat after defeat. Best case scenario is a delaying tactic is all they are doing at this point in time. These developers are not walking away as they have a lot of skin in the game already.

[DDIG]

1 hour ago, smeagolsfree said:

DT Resident alerted me to a development in the lawsuit yesterday. Checked it out and this is what we found out......Checked on this. Dismissed in part and allowed to continue in part. But the judge basically said you can't sue until Council approves/denies the SP zoning so there's no point in litigating this right now. 

Again, with that being said their whole premise of the first lawsuit was not being passed by the entire council. They can't decide what they want, so I think the whole thing will eventually be thrown out. The lawyer seems to be a nummynut. I was wondering why he was so quick to sue myself on the SP as it had not even passed. They are suffering defeat after defeat. Best case scenario is a delaying tactic is all they are doing at this point in time. These developers are not walking away as they have a lot of skin in the game already.

Just think about these guys - a few folks who have only lived downtown for a few years using absurd lawsuits to hold up a collective billion plus in some of the highest end development Nashville has ever scene both with huge public parks so that they can protect their views. It is infuriating.