CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[Hushpuppy321]

13 minutes ago, JeanClt said:

Just throwing a fact out: You stand by this even though your low confidence that the NCGA will grant Charlotte a sales tax increase. This is despite this section alone estimated to probably cost a Billion to design and construct. A billion more that the city would need to afford when funds are hard to come by as things currently stand. - Leaving my own opinions aside as much as possible -

Would be a catalyst for development which is very important as well as being mostly if not all grade separated to allow better travel time/speeds.  I think the 9th & 11th Transfer could work.

[MarcoPolo]

12 hours ago, wilmore said:

It is incredible that CATS doesn't even attempt to provide ridership projections for these routes. 

I would posit the lack of ridership projections is purposeful in order to distract from the folly of the Committee's LPA routing recommendation.  Projecting ridership is far from a science, falling more in the realm of the mystical.  It is as fanciful an exercise as traffic count projection is.  Even so the "made up ridership" numbers generated by such an exercise would categorically show the harsh reality of the LPA Line's under performance.......so poorly conceived it is, (I can explain further off-line).   

Wilmore, the real "head scratcher" is not why the Committee cares little about the actual transit mobility of and use by potential riders, and the many positive attributes a proper alignment would address (as I discussed in a post on this thread last year); but rather the perplexing argument on which their recommendation rests, ie: that the routing will spur "re-development".   Disregarding for a moment the fact that promoting development should never be the primary reason for building transit, let us focus on the type of development that would occur along the LPA route as it bypasses downtown while straddling the Brookshire Freeway.   Redevelopment of expressway frontage is not pedestrian enabling, smart growth in character.  It does not generate more "SouthEnds".   The greatest failure of transit planners and politicians is the notion that transit lines magically transform any surrounding landscape into cool, hip, dynamic, and prosperous urbanism; and simultaneously ween a population from reliance on environmentally and socially crippling car dependency.   Advocates of rail transit, return from overseas tours of Europe and Asia in a lather over the amazing options rail of all kinds provides the populations there, and of course the cool developments along the corridors of the cities they visit.  Very chamber of commerce friendly stuff, which is to say, cosmetic.   What they fail to observe and understand during their tours is the robustly layered support systems of other modes of transit (buses, trolleys, shuttles, etc..), and urban fabric (pedestrian oriented, generating cycling, and walking traffic) that surround and feed these rail systems.   They wrongly assume all rail works, because they see so many people using it.  All you have to do is build it!  

The Blue Line has been around for how many years now?   Over that period less than 5 of its over 16 mile length (outside of Uptown) has blossomed into fledgling urbanism.   The stretches that have "blossomed" have specific attributes, the most important being; 1- a pre-existing interconnected thoroughfare network and finer grain block structure, 2- immediate adjacency to residential neighborhoods fully interconnected to the regional thoroughfare system, and 3- a significant commercial component serving the adjoining neighborhoods that is proximate to the corridor..., aka: Southend and Northend.   The richness and resiliency of these three attributes quickly dissipate as one heads further afield into the disconnected and buffered, large lot/superblock, gated, cul-de-sac environment of suburban Charlotte.  These locations will take much longer to "correct" with the best outcomes more akin to privatized enclaves of mixed use nodes, ie: variations of Ballantyne, Phillips Place, Piedmont Town Center both larger and smaller, high income, and low income, that have sprouted in some suburban areas of rapidly growing metropolitan areas around the US, (important to point out that most of these have developed regardless of whether light rail is present, and while they are an improvement over conventional suburbia, they should not be the long-term goal of any municipality striving to be resilient and equitable).  

So, if Southend/Northend (and any traditionally laid out pre-war fabric) represent the gold standard for transit investment and urban retrofit, and most suburban areas represent the aspirational battleground for rectifying three generations of planning/financing/and engineering mistakes, then expressway frontage would be classified as the "black hole" of urban design and development.   It is where city life goes to die.   Even when all three attributes described above are available, the presence of a freeway permits no urbanism to escape from them and into the surroundings.   A more hostile environment does not exist...except maybe a radioactive wasteland filled with brain eating zombies.   The Brookshire Freeway is such an environment.  It is also an important link in the regional car-centric transportation system (unlike the John Belk), so its replacement, elimination, or rebuilding will be measured in generational time spans.   The Freeway's design profile (elevated along most of its path bypassing downtown) increases its "kryptonite like" impact on adjacent properties.  Just look at a Google Earth image.  The land immediate to the Corridor is either buffered with trees and grass slopes where it lies lower than surrounding property, or is backed onto with the ass-ends of buildings, vacant parcels, and parking lots where it rises up and over surrounding properties.  The expressway’s highly negative externalities, (noise pollution, air pollution, heat pollution) necessarily create an edge condition for the adjacent communities, (same is true for the John Belk).  The Brookshire is the edge of, and barrier between "communities", not a connector of, and seam connecting "communities".  Light Rail should always be a connector.  Co-locating such a facility next to a Freeway is professional negligence, and prioritizing the "development opportunity" first and foremost is counter to best practice.  Thankfully, the FTA's criteria provide a safety net of sorts as any request for funding the recommended route will almost certainly be rejected.  

For the sake of discussion let's assume it is built as recommended.  The argument made by the Committee, that adding a facility having a total of three stations (the fewest of all the alternatives, two of which will be suspended above the City's streets like the monorail system at Disney World), with no direct connection to the Blue Line; that this exemplar of short-sighted incompetence will somehow increase the desirability of the area for redevelopment is, to say the least, naive.  The Brookshire carries 100,000 cars a day, is a major link for the region's freeway system, and provides multiple exits accessing directly into the highest concentration of jobs and entertainment in a two-state region   Why is it not fully developed along its ROW already?  This is not a rhetorical question.  Adding light rail will not trigger some magic tipping point that suddenly makes the area desirable.   The best case scenario is so subpar when compared to the cost of the facility as to be laughable.  Imagine the best case, decades from now, being the blocks facing the John Belk that have been redeveloped since the "urbanization" of its ROW.   The ass ends of all the new developments face onto it.  Now, imagine an elevated train line meandering next to the parking decks, and blank walls, on one side and the freeway on the other.  Let's all chant "world class".   It is a monumental waste of money, and will provide more examples for anti-transit advocates to fight against the real and pressing need for alternative forms of transportation in this City.  

Bite the bullet, regroup, and re-message the needs and opportunities transit can deliver for Charlotte's residents and businesses.  Bury the line under Trade St, with the Gold Line above, smooth out the curves entering into and out of downtown, access the core through proper integration with the Blue Line, the proposed bus terminal, and the future Amtrack Station, and be done with it already!  Focusing the debate on how efficient the LPA route is because it does not mix with traffic as do the other two alternatives is akin to arguing where to place deck chairs on the Titanic to achieve the best view!  We have been given a dog’s breakfast selection of choices (to borrow a saying from my friends Down Under) and the discussions on this thread read as if we are ok with that?!?!?   We deserve much better.  Hell, a few pages ago, I felt that we had moved into a more positive space, with the submission of two alternatives that at least from a routing perspective showed competency.  It is not a stretch to label today’s disappointing recommendation of the Committee as grossly negligent.  One step forward, one step backward.  That should be the official line dance of Charlotte.   

[Nathan2]

8 hours ago, MarcoPolo said:

 Bury the line under Trade St, with the Gold Line above, smooth out the curves entering into and out of downtown, access the core through proper integration with the Blue Line, the proposed bus terminal, and the future Amtrack Station, and be done with it already!  

Why have they not even looked into this alignment?  I haven't seen anything that shows that they have seriously looked into this other than them saying we just can't tunnel in Charlotte. During public meetings they basically just skipped these questions? I don't care if its too expensive,  this should at least be a serious option that the public gets to comment on. The silver line can't be a short term project, but something that benefits the city for the next century. 

[Hushpuppy321]

The Blue Line has been around for how many years now?   Over that period less than 5 of its over 16 mile length (outside of Uptown) has blossomed into fledgling urbanism

Edited December 9, 2022 by Hushpuppy321
Trying to respond to @Marcopolo

[Hushpuppy321]

22 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

 

Dang - technical difficulties responding.  Anyway - More than 5 Original BlueLine Stations are seeing development activity.  Just took time for the really ‘low hanging’ fruit to be transformed / built up first.   Woodlawn & Arrowwood are very much coming into their own and expanding with hundreds of Residential Units at a fast pace for being so far away from Uptown & SouthEnd.  Tyvola & Archdale have much more limited potential without having to tear down and rebuild which is expensive.  Carson Station has been quite slow to develop substantially until just the last couple of years.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Hushpuppy321

[Reverie39]

2 hours ago, Nathan2 said:

Why have they not even looked into this alignment?  I haven't seen anything that shows that they have seriously looked into this other than them saying we just can't tunnel in Charlotte. During public meetings they basically just skipped these questions? I don't care if its too expensive,  this should at least be a serious option that the public gets to comment on. The silver line can't be a short term project, but something that benefits the city for the next century. 

I agree, if they decide against it for cost reasons that's one thing but it's sad that there isn't even a whisper about it. Major cities have transit tunnels because it's the only way to provide transit to incredibly dense areas in their cores. Charlotte is a major city now and it should at least be considered.

[CLT2014]

3 hours ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Dang - technical difficulties responding.  Anyway - More than 5 Original BlueLine Stations are seeing development activity.  Just took time for the really ‘low hanging’ fruit to be transformed / built up first.   Woodlawn & Arrowwood are very much coming into their own and expanding with hundreds of Residential Units at a fast pace for being so far away from Uptown & SouthEnd.  Tyvola & Archdale have much more limited potential without having to tear down and rebuild which is expensive.  Carson Station has been quite slow to develop substantially until just the last couple of years.

Correlation isn't causation though. Did the light rail spur Woodlawn apartments or is it just organically happening as developers run out of land and scoop up the cheap motels and strip malls in that area? Massive apartment blocks are springing up in non-transit areas as well, so  it is tough to know if 10+ years later the urban sprawl occuring on Woodlawn (Accent Southrail has massive surface parking lot and looks like it belongs in Waverly or Steele Creek) is due to the station being there or if it is largely other factors like land prices, zoning, and being near breweries for marketing "LoSo." As newcomers look at South End and get priced out, they scan further south and the apartment developers convince people moving from out of town that LoSo is cool... little do they know they'll be near the sketchy Days Inn, gas stations, and fast food.

Edited December 9, 2022 by CLT2014

[kermit]

On 12/5/2022 at 8:40 AM, LKN704 said:

Baltimore got almost a billion dollars in funding from the Feds a couple years back to build the E/W line (although as light rail, though it would operate in tunnels downtown) until for the outgoing Republican governor to cancel the project and redirect state funds to projects in Western Maryland. I'm hoping that with new leadership in Maryland that the project eventually resumes. 

And just days after expressing your wish, incoming Maryland Gov Wes Moore says getting the Red Line (roughly the E/W line on the map) built will be a priority of his administration. Apparently special language about funding for the Red Line was included in the Federal Infrastructure bill, so construction may be able to get moving relatively quickly.

I am in Baltimore 3-4 times a year and nearly every time I need to get from Camden Yards to Canton so I will (hopefully) be a regular rider. [say you are a white guy visiting Baltimore without actually saying it…]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-09/md-governor-elect-pledges-to-revive-red-line-transit-project-in-baltimore

Edited December 13, 2022 by kermit

[15895]

2 hours ago, kermit said:

And just days after expressing your wish, Incoming Maryland Gov Wes Moore says getting the Red Line (roughly the E/W line on the map) built will be a priority of his administration. Apparently special language about funding for the Red Line was included in the Federal Infrastructure bill, so construction may be able to get moving relatively quickly.

I am in Baltimore 3-4 times a year and nearly every time I need to get from Camden Yards to Canton so I will (hopefully) be a regular rider.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-09/md-governor-elect-pledges-to-revive-red-line-transit-project-in-baltimore

I was just going to post that. The governor again reiterated how strongly he feels about mass and the red line and he “vows” to have it done within his term. Is that possible? It’s aggressive. But it’s great to have the *state* government fight for it. I think the MD state legislature has already passed bills ready to go full steam ahead with the red line 

The previous governor stopped the red line and forfeited $900M from the Feds. The new governor vows to complete it and score Fed Infrastructure $’s.

And it’s more than likely going to be tunneled under a significant portion of the downtown area. 

My take away… it’s so disappointing that major infrastructure (like mass transit) needs state support and  there’s no hope on the horizon for NC to support mass transit in the cities which means it’s unlikely Charlotte gets any new rail transit lines. -.-“ which Charlotte & Raleigh/Durham deserve. 

Maryland & Baltimore can pull this off but North Carolina & Charlotte can’t? 

Edited December 9, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[DCMetroRaleigh]

2 hours ago, kermit said:

And just days after expressing your wish, Incoming Maryland Gov Wes Moore says getting the Red Line (roughly the E/W line on the map) built will be a priority of his administration. Apparently special language about funding for the Red Line was included in the Federal Infrastructure bill, so construction may be able to get moving relatively quickly.

I am in Baltimore 3-4 times a year and nearly every time I need to get from Camden Yards to Canton so I will (hopefully) be a regular rider.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-09/md-governor-elect-pledges-to-revive-red-line-transit-project-in-baltimore

Great. Governor Hogan was a jerk for canceling this while simultaneously allowing the Purple Line in PG and Montgomery Counties to proceed. Next, I would like to see the DC and Baltimore metros connected via BWI.

[Reverie39]

On 12/9/2022 at 1:24 PM, kermit said:

And just days after expressing your wish, Incoming Maryland Gov Wes Moore says getting the Red Line (roughly the E/W line on the map) built will be a priority of his administration. Apparently special language about funding for the Red Line was included in the Federal Infrastructure bill, so construction may be able to get moving relatively quickly.

I am in Baltimore 3-4 times a year and nearly every time I need to get from Camden Yards to Canton so I will (hopefully) be a regular rider.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-12-09/md-governor-elect-pledges-to-revive-red-line-transit-project-in-baltimore

Good for them. Baltimore is basically identical to Charlotte in metro area population, but will have three rapid transit lines once this is complete. I know it's more dense, but it's a sign of what should be possible and striven for in Charlotte.

[Nathan2]

Anyone else feel like the proposed station locations are way too far apart to attract enough people and to foster useful trips? With most of the urban stations locations adjacent to 277 or Independence they also limit the amount of people that are conveniently located. For example, who is the central station supposed to serve? A large portion of the Plaza population will be located way too far from the central or pecan stations to ever be convenient. The plaza area is at a disadvantage since a highway and a railroad deny it connections. 

[kermit]

^ Stop spacing is wide so that commuters from Matthews and the burbs can get to uptown quickly (rather than making it easier for urban dwellers to live without a car)

Stop location is crappy (generally blocked on one side by a car sewer or railroad) because the Silver Line is being constructed as ‘transit performance art’ (as cheaply as possible) rather than as a means of moving people efficiently (e.g. tunneling).

Good transit costs money and value engineering is in Charlotte’s DNA. Good transit also requires a design that focus's on one group of riders — Silver Line design focuses on the needs of subrubanites, many of whom are now working from home.

[videtur quam contuor]

I saw this elsewhere. Prior to the Covid time ~1% of linkedin jobs were advertised as remote work. Now it is 14%. However 50%+ of applications are for those 14% of the positions that are remote.

https://www.axios.com/2022/12/04/remote-jobs-linkedin-supply-demand

[tozmervo]

If you want lots of close together stops, light rail is not the right solution. That said, Pecan seems like a pretty solid choice for a stop location. It easily serves the entire P-M business district. Keep in mind, Central Ave is still on the books for streetcar. 

You could maybe shift Pecan down to St Julien and add a Silver line station around Sunnyside (along with a Gold Line transfer)? I'm not sure how else to improve the Pecan Station location. 

Central station itself is pretty limited because of the highways, but most of CPCC is within a 1/2 mile walk, as well as the neighborhoods along Seigel. It's certainly a more accessible station than, say, 25th street station.

[kermit]

File under Comical Construction Costs:

according to this wiki post https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryfast Norway (one of the most expensive, environmentally sensitive and worker-safety conscious nations on earth) built 8.9 miles of bored, undersea tunnel for roughly $500 million usd. A silver line tunnel under uptown would be appx 1.5 miles — roughly $90 million usd (plus stations) at these costs.

I have no doubt that the Silver Line situation through uptown is different in many ways (although the geology may be similar), but this should make clear that our construction costs are just insane, and we could have decent transit if we bothered to learn from others (the Spanish also know a thing or two about tunneling through hard rock)

Edited December 14, 2022 by kermit

[JRCLT]

File under Comical Construction Costs:
according to this wiki post https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryfast Norway (one of the most expensive, environmentally sensitive and worker-safety conscious nations on earth) built 8.9 miles of bored, undersea tunnel for roughly $500 million usd. A silver line tunnel under uptown would be appx 1.5 miles — roughly $90 million usd (plus stations) at these costs.
I have no doubt that the Silver Line situation through uptown is different in many ways (although the geology may be similar), but this should make clear that our construction costs are just insane, and we could have decent transit if we bothered to learn from others (the Spanish also know a thing or two about tunneling through hard rock)

The Norwegians have built hundreds of miles of tunnel in a relatively concentrated area so their knowledge, experience, and labor skills will tend to lend them a hand in terms of lower tunneling costs. When someone builds something a lot, they tend to build it faster and or at a lower cost.

[Reverie39]

2 hours ago, kermit said:

File under Comical Construction Costs:

according to this wiki post https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryfast Norway (one of the most expensive, environmentally sensitive and worker-safety conscious nations on earth) built 8.9 miles of bored, undersea tunnel for roughly $500 million usd. A silver line tunnel under uptown would be appx 1.5 miles — roughly $90 million usd (plus stations) at these costs.

I have no doubt that the Silver Line situation through uptown is different in many ways (although the geology may be similar), but this should make clear that our construction costs are just insane, and we could have decent transit if we bothered to learn from others (the Spanish also know a thing or two about tunneling through hard rock)

Surely it doesn't scale like that right? I would think the cost to contract out design work, move all the supplies in, etc. makes even small-scale projects rather expensive, as some of those things might not scale directly with length of tunnel. With the idea that a longer tunnel is more "efficient" in terms of bang for your buck.

[southslider]

If City Council really wants to keep the LPA, maybe CTC should move next to where Silver Line will cross Blue Line. The County and Levine own quite a bit of land around the existing 9th Street and planned 11th Street stations.

[kermit]

On 12/14/2022 at 11:45 AM, Reverie39 said:

Surely it doesn't scale like that right? I would think the cost to contract out design work, move all the supplies in, etc. makes even small-scale projects rather expensive, as some of those things might not scale directly with length of tunnel. With the idea that a longer tunnel is more "efficient" in terms of bang for your buck.

You are exactly right, I am sure the cost of the tunnel boring machine as well as design is disproportionate to total project costs.

That doesn't change the fact that if we got the Norwegian contractors here to dig a tunnel beneath Trade street (and we gave them half a billion dollars for their efforts) it would still be about $100 million cheaper than building the weird 11th street detour route with a crappy Blue Line connection and lousy employment access (IIRC CATS said that route will add about $610 million to Silver Line costs over the Gold Line shared ROW)

Edited December 16, 2022 by kermit

[carolinaboy]

Tunneling the Silver Line under uptown (or at least a part of it) seems to be the best option. Charlotte needs to think about this as a 100 year investment and not add unnecessary complication to the existing traffic/street pattern.  Tunnel under the airport property also to get a station at the airport.

[Richhamleigh, DC]

On 12/12/2022 at 12:02 PM, Reverie39 said:

Good for them. Baltimore is basically identical to Charlotte in metro area population, but will have three rapid transit lines once this is complete. I know it's more dense, but it's a sign of what should be possible and striven for in Charlotte.

Development follows transportation.   Waiting for more density isn't the answer, you have to have the transportation mode that creates the catalyst for density.  Density is fiscally conservative -- you maximize the use of existing infrastructure.  Density doesn't have to be a bad thing -- frankly, Charlotte (and NC's big cities in general) are doing a good job (Charlotte's doing a great job, IMHO) making density at a more European scale.  Now, hurry up and get a rail transit line to CLT!

 

Why does it cost so much to build things in America?

https://www.vox.com/22534714/rail-roads-infrastructure-costs-america

Edited December 15, 2022 by Phillydog

[elrodvt]

Does anyone seriously think Charlotte will invest in an expensive 100 year plan? I love the idea ( although times do change so there is obviously risk involved). 

I just don't see visionaries at the local level and even if I did I'm pretty sure the gop legislature would figure out a way to make it extremely painful if not impossible for them to succeed. 

I personally would push (vote) for the best long term plan but expect the value engineered one to win. Whatever that looks like these days? 

Hate to be so negative but haven't seen anything to dissuade that point of view. Show me the positive! 

 

Edited December 15, 2022 by elrodvt

[southslider]

There are some positives, though maybe not Silver Line, but instead...

*renewed interest in equity with Council support for CTC above ground and prioritizing bus improvements

*local support for prioritizing bus, but covered largely with existing revenues

*Mecklenburg support for expanded transit, but with realistic expectations and timeline commitments for North Mecklenburg

*regional support for state-enabling tax levies, though mostly for roads, trails, and schools

*CATS becoming a regional authority, but only adding Gaston and Cabarrus

*rapid transit expansion, but more cost-effective solutions like northeast commuter rail on NCRR, north BRT on Express Lanes, and BLE2 with value capture at Carolina Place and in Ballantyne

The silver lining of Silver Line is that the LPA will now be seen as such low ridership return for high cost that so many other local bus and regional system transit needs at lower costs and higher needs can inevitably take over, though perhaps, not until after the dust settles on the LPA destined for the shelf.

 

 

[KJHburg]

Great summary of where we are for future transit lines, the situation with CATS buses etc.

https://www.wfae.org/charlotte-area/2022-12-15/2022-in-transit-plenty-of-planning-little-movement