CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[Matthew.Brendan]

The city is indifferent. As long as the trains run at all, that is "good enough". The apathy is palpable.

CATS: "Ridership levels don't warrant increased frequencies." Also CATS: "Why don't more people ride the train?"

[RugbyPike#11]

Happened upon this posting with NRDC and I have to think that some active contributors to this thread could qualify:

Southeast Mobility Choices Advocate
https://careers-nrdc.icims.com/jobs/5087/southeast-mobility-choices-advocate/job?mobile=false&width=970&height=500&bga=true&needsRedirect=false&jan1offset=-300&jun1offset=-240

[southslider]

Blue Line frequency will soon come back, though initially just rush hours. The bigger concern this year is Speaker Moore and his enlarged majority. Just as this man has prevented Medicaid expansion year after year, he also has the power to prevent regional transit expansion.

[15895]

8 hours ago, southslider said:

Blue Line frequency will soon come back, though initially just rush hours. The bigger concern this year is Speaker Moore and his enlarged majority. Just as this man has prevented Medicaid expansion year after year, he also has the power to prevent regional transit expansion.

If choice riders don’t permanently leave the blue line with 20 minute frequencies, I would be surprised. 

But you’re right. The biggest concern is state Republicans   If they retain power and Cooper is replaced with a Republican. It’s not going to be good for Meck Co. 

 

[Reverie39]

8 hours ago, southslider said:

Blue Line frequency will soon come back, though initially just rush hours. The bigger concern this year is Speaker Moore and his enlarged majority. Just as this man has prevented Medicaid expansion year after year, he also has the power to prevent regional transit expansion.

Any idea on exactly when? Increased rush hour frequency would be a good start. Plenty of other cities do that already.

[kermit]

On 1/12/2023 at 3:12 AM, southslider said:

Blue Line frequency will soon come back, though initially just rush hours.

 

Southsider knows things... [I didn't mean to imply this is a surprise, he has always known lots of things]

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by kermit

[seththom]

On 1/10/2023 at 9:39 AM, kayman said:

https://www.wfae.org/politics/2023-01-09/n-c-house-speaker-tim-moore-blasts-charlottes-proposed-13-5-billion-transportation-plan

All I'm going to say is elections have consequences... Much of this could've been put to bed by the people voting for people with sense into the NCGA but nope. Instead, more of this nonsense and less of pragmatic will to make things happen.

 

Just stumbled upon this Axios article this morning: (https://charlotte.axios.com/318016/its-been-a-week-of-tragedy-and-setback-for-charlottes-transportation-hopes/)

In addition to Tim Moore, it's been a horrible week for pedestrians, cyclists, transit riders, and the like in the Charlotte area, largely due to car-dependency. It's extremely depressing to see that ignored and the decision makers that make our city more undesirable and harder to navigate.

This isn't meant to be a political take, but there's no reason a relatively 50-50 state political composition should be 71-49 in favor of one side. I also don't understand how hoping in a car and driving everywhere is appealing to people living in an urban area, including Tim Moore himself.

Charlotte has the potential to be a great, transit-focused city and avoid much of the development mistakes of Atlanta and the like. On the bright side, it seems everyone besides the NCGA are aligned in a transit-focused future; Axios mentions Sustain Charlotte, and the CRBA with two notable pro-transit takes. Is funding going to be purely from a sales tax referendum? Or are there more stakeholders that could be involved?

[RANYC]

On 1/12/2023 at 11:39 AM, AirNostrumMAD said:

If choice riders don’t permanently leave the blue line with 20 minute frequencies, I would be surprised. 

But you’re right. The biggest concern is state Republicans   If they retain power and Cooper is replaced with a Republican. It’s not going to be good for Meck Co. 

 

I'm sorry, but I just have a vastly different take on things, from the bit of these matters I follow given I'm working 12 hours a day.

While I suspect I disagree with much of Moore's premises, I've become increasingly alarmed at the vitriol I read from Charlotte's transit/urbanist Twitterati.

If the twitterati insanity I read about is driving policy-making and  strategy in Charlotte and the County, then I'm profoundly worried.

There appears to be absolutely no space for debate within the Twitterati, and they'll even turn against each other if there's even a whiff of challenge to their orthodoxy.

Moore made artless comments about bike lanes, but the fact is that protected bike lanes are a relatively tiny part of the transit draft plan.  

Charlotte may very well fund a significant expansion of protected bike lanes out of its existing capital pools without getting approval to hike the sales tax 1 penny.

Also, this transit behemoth is a draft plan and not a plan because I don't know where the hell the thing even stands, and from what I'm reading, it's nowhere close to getting presented to Moore and the GA.

And the draft plan, which requires a massive capital commitment from the city, is largely staked on a light rail line.  It's a massive concentration of money & effort along a pretty tiny sliver of geography for city that's >300 square miles.  Not saying that's necessarily bad, but I welcome the doubters and the skeptics on something this big to make sure we've exhausted every competing alternative.  

So why are we planning council sit-ins and threatening to yell Moore down outside of his offices, because of his orientation toward cars and comments on something that hasn't yet been presented to him for his review?  This seems like emotional insanity.

Edited January 15, 2023 by RANYC

[southslider]

Speaking of "orientation towards cars," NC has its own problems with transportation funding well beyond transit. For the first time in forever, no new roadway projects were added to the STIP and many of the remaining ones previously programmed for implementation were reduced to only design, requiring those previously "committed" projects to compete once again for funding. The "Prioritization" process NC uses is deeply flawed, capping funding for individual corridors statewide and dividing up non-expressway funding into 7 equal regions and 14 equal divisions, regardless of population, jobs, or even traffic volumes.

No, my criticism of Moore is that he won't actually lead to solve problems that affect even the very areas that empower him. He has a great opportunity to empower rural, urban, and everywhere in between to fund a variety of visions. And much more than cities are thinking of diversifying their transportation for quality of life, including small town downtowns and trails, not just major metro greenways.  But given how rural hospitals going out of business begged the Speaker for Medicaid expansion while he stubbornly resisted, even when his Senate counterparts were ready, I fear this man would still play the culture politics of pitting urban and rural against each other, rather than what unites NC.

[15895]

10 hours ago, RANYC said:

I'm sorry, but I just have a vastly different take on things, from the bit of these matters I follow given I'm working 12 hours a day.

While I suspect I disagree with much of Moore's premises, I've become increasingly alarmed at the vitriol I read from Charlotte's transit/urbanist Twitterati.

If the twitterati insanity I read about is driving policy-making and  strategy in Charlotte and the County, then I'm profoundly worried.

There appears to be absolutely no space for debate within the Twitterati, and they'll even turn against each other if there's even a whiff of challenge to their orthodoxy.

Moore made artless comments about bike lanes, but the fact is that protected bike lanes are a relatively tiny part of the transit draft plan.  

Charlotte may very well fund a significant expansion of protected bike lanes out of its existing capital pools without getting approval to hike the sales tax 1 penny.

Also, this transit behemoth is a draft plan and not a plan because I don't know where the hell the thing even stands, and from what I'm reading, it's nowhere close to getting presented to Moore and the GA.

And the draft plan, which requires a massive capital commitment from the city, is largely staked on a light rail line.  It's a massive concentration of money & effort along a pretty tiny sliver of geography for city that's >300 square miles.  Not saying that's necessarily bad, but I welcome the doubters and the skeptics on something this big to make sure we've exhausted every competing alternative.  

So why are we planning council sit-ins and threatening to yell Moore down outside of his offices, because of his orientation toward cars and comments on something that hasn't yet been presented to him for his review?  This seems like emotional insanity.

That’s nothing compared to people who are against CRT, the avg. Charlottean suburbanite who will set themselves on fire over school redistricting, people against the idea of drag queen story time or people who don’t like elected officials being critical over former president Trump, Nimby’s in close in uptown neighborhoods even about new development, gun laws, etc. 

I don’t mean that as whataboutism, or tit-for-tat. But the only thing people have to make change is a voice and sometimes not even a vote.

Tim Moore runs unopposed. And he’s in a district if an opposition candidate ever ran, it’d be like… 5%. 

Tim Moore and his rural GOP allies aren’t going to support mass transit, period. Whether they’re nice about it, or seem open-minded. They probably *want* Charlotte to try and pass it to run against it. They want Charlotte to try to come to the government asking for a couple hundred million $’s so they can deride it. If it sounds cynical, just go back to when McCrory became elected after the Tea Party midterms when the current regime was elected and locked in (2010). There was only a Mecklenburg republicans or so standing in the way of overriding McCrory’s veto that would’ve decimated Mecklenburg budget (redistribution bill.) This was the time Charlotte was in the national news for the pee pee laws & taking out a restraining order against the state taking over the airport (born out of the idea they were afraid Charlotte would build light rail or streetcar to the airport using airport funds), the constant threats to pull funding for the Blue Line Extension even as it was mostly built, stripping away of many local zoning codes, capping out referendums without state approval for mass transit, more threats if property taxes were utilized to fund any portion of streetcar, etc. 

The only reason it’s quiet is because Cooper is governor and the Vi Lyles doesn’t fight for urban issues. And that was sort of her mandate because NC went nuclear over Jennifer Roberts (who was ahead of the times. Everything “radical” she believed is like. Common in the US now…) being vocal. I believe they claimed Charlotte was using water balloons in a bazooka fight by challenging the state legislature. Jennifer Roberts was progressive & a fighter and we lost & Vi Lyles took the reins and has played nice & brought stability between the city & the state. The city can’t actually do anything but create transit plans. Which they should be doing, you’re right. But I think there’s just no pressing need for it because they know there’s no realistic chance of it happening due to no state support on top of the handicaps that prevent Charlotte doing it on its own outside of a couple miles of streetcar here & there. Personally, I rather have a mayor and city council and civic leaders fight for it - even if fruitless in the short term. To be clear, Vi Lyles is doing what she was voted in to do & she’s doing it good. I’m not against Vi, she’s just not my preferred candidate. Though I think she’s a terrific person. 

In any event, It’s their world (Tim Moore and the Tea Party era GOP) and we just happen to live in it. To think they’d ever be good partners is to waste time. To think they’d ever allow $ go towards even just the silver line is misguided IMO. I’d be happy if Charlotte could just pass its own laws it wanted (that doesn’t violate equal protections, etc. My disclaimer in case anyone equates a tax increase for a transit line to voting for segregation etc.). It’s 

It’s frustrating to live  in a city and not be able to even vote to raise taxes or impose certain ordinances because country folk thinks it’s irresponsible and will harm the business climate of the state. Even McCrory saw the value of investing in large capital improvement projects (light rail, Hornets arena) as a way to boost economic activity. The vocal critics back then said light rail was a waste of money and cost too much money and business would leave. I don’t think investing in greenways, transit, parks (Romare has opposition), etc chases away business. 
 

Anyway, I don’t disagree with you. Just giving my rationale why I am over the games. It’s the same Tim Moore and he’s not going to change. It’s like Levine holding 1st ward hostage for *decades*. With the same thing. New people come, they get excited by a new plan. Understanding of why nothing has happened. But after a decade, you get annoyed. And then realize why people waiting multiple decades are mad lol. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[kermit]

21 hours ago, RANYC said:

While I suspect I disagree with much of Moore's premises, I've become increasingly alarmed at the vitriol I read from Charlotte's transit/urbanist Twitterati.

Keep in mind that Twitter is not a policy-making device. Its just a bunch of people running their mouths, and 75% of it is total BS. The fact that Moore might be taking twitter bs seriously is incredibly alarming to me. Once upon a time, policy and funding decisions (in North Carolina in particular) were made from evidence and informed research and partisanship and tribalism played much less of a role. There was also a sense that North Carolinians were interested in improving the quality of life for everyone in the state, not just the folks who looked/lived like them. While I am sure some residents of Kings Mountain might view the Silver Line as a cost without a benefit, they need to be told (by competent leaders) that a stronger, more transit oriented,  Charlotte economy benefits them. (and they aren't even paying for the Silver Line anyway (unless they decide to shop in Charlotte), so why do they get any say in the issue)

The historic sense of community in the state allowed NC to invest in and build one of the most respected public university systems in the country — it had wide benefits for every region of the state and most recognized that. NC also created Research Triangle Park in the late 1950s. While RTP was ostensibly an urban investment, politicians statewide understood it would benefit all North Carolinian’s (and it did, just take a look at how NC incomes increased relative to the nation from 1960-1997). Research and evidence motivated both of those investments,  just a research tells us that Charlotte and the Triangle (and the economy of the entire state) is going to increasingly struggle with auto dependence if we don’t invest in alternative forms of mobility soon.

The current NCGA is taking us back to the stone age, perhaps just because their feelings got hurt by some anonymous people online. And now people are wagging their finger saying that folks online should have been more considerate of Tim Moore’s feelings.  This is a ridiculous situation.

Edited January 16, 2023 by kermit

[RANYC]

35 minutes ago, kermit said:

Keep in mind that Twitter is not a policy-making device. Its just a bunch of people running their mouths, and 75% of it is total BS. Its the fact that Moore might be taking it seriously is incredibly alarming to me. Once upon a time, policy and funding decisions (in North Carolina in particular) were made from evidence and informed research and partisanship and tribalism played much less of a role. There was also a sense that North Carolinians were interested in improving the quality of life for everyone in the state, not just the folks who looked/lived like them. 

This semse of community allowed NC to invest in and build one of the most respected public university systems in the country — it had wide benefits for every region of the state. NC also created Research Triangle Park in the late 1950s. While RTP was ostensibly an urban investment, politicians statewide understood it would benefit all North Carolinian’s (and it did, just take a look at how NC incomes increased relative to the nation from 1960-1997). Research and evidence motivated both of those investments,  just a research tells us that Charlotte and the Triangle (and the economy of the entire state) is going to increasingly struggle with auto dependence if we don’t invest in alternative forms of mobility soon.

The current NCGA is taking us back to the stone age, perhaps just because their feelings got hurt by some anonymous people online. And now people are wagging their finger saying that folks online should have been more considerate of Tim Moore’s feelings.  This is a ridiculous situation.

Is it the GA taking NC back to a proverbial Stone Age, or rather a vast state electorate. Is the transit plan and even the idea of light rail truly a shared vision?  Where are the mobility plan alternatives that can be voted on, or do we only get a “yes or no” on a single plan with a single cost?  
 

This is a type of cornering, a “take it or leave it” on so many matters of generational import that is being done quite often in politics these days is facing a backlash.  
 

The cornering might be the result of an assumption that the people are too dumb or distracted to be engaged as true stakeholders in community strategy.
 

Maybe the people are too distracted, but I’m sensing a growing populist resistance to these tactics and our area isn’t immune and Moore is a mere figurehead for a much deeper, brooding, populist rejection of big ideas devised in what more and more people feel are elite chambers of a professional, managerial class.

Even in communities of color in Charlotte, where transit has the potential to be much more a lifeblood of mobility than in other neighborhoods, light rail is a lightning rod for gentrification.

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by RANYC

[kermit]

2 hours ago, RANYC said:

Is it the GA taking NC back to a proverbial Stone Age, or rather a vast state electorate. Is the transit plan and even the idea of light rail truly a shared vision?  Where are the mobility plan alternatives that can be voted on, or so we only get a yes or no on a single plan with a single cost?  A type of cornering done quite often in politics because the people are too dumb to be engaged to be true stakeholders in expensive and multi-generational obligations.  

My vote is the GA is to blame, they are the ones who gerrymandered a 50/50 state into a right wing straitjacket.

I do agree the mobility plan is awfully weak and could benefit from more work (and public feedback). However, we need transit expansion yesterday.  I am not sure what the proper compromise is between immediate need and a sensible and equitable plan but we do know that making the plan more about cars is going to be counter productive.

As for voters who lack the ability to look beyond the present, I have no idea about a solution. But creating an electoral system that better represents a broad range of interests would be a good first step.

Edited January 15, 2023 by kermit

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

My vote is the GA’s is to blame, they are the ones who gerrymandered a 50/50 state into a rightwing straightjacket.

I do agree the mobility plan is awfully weak and could benefit from more work (and public feedback). However, we need transit expansion yesterday. We do know that making it more about cars is the wrong way to go.

As for voters who lack the ability to look beyond the present, I have no idea. But creating an electoral system that better represents a broad range of interests who be a good first step.

Solution or Shiny New Toy

Well, I don’t want to discount or dismiss work that’s been done to date on the transit plan, but in my passing convos with people, they like a new light rail line as a kind of marvel.  But no one believes a silver line anchored plan is any sort of solution to a problem.  It is the transit marvel plan, not a mobility problem-solving plan.

Maybe a Roads Focus has a Place in the Solutions Tool-Kit

In fact, someone told me retrofitting the road layout to include more connecting roads to get our overall layout to look a tad more like a grid would better distribute traffic we already have and bust up gridlock.  No, we will never be a perfect grid.  No one believes we have time to make Cotswold into Savannah, but again, achieving with many more connector roads what a grid ultimately attempts to achieve, may be a credible objective of new funding.  Also, accelerating “complete streets” to cover far more ground would make it safer for families across the city’s 300 square miles to take their kids or elderly parents on walks or to take strolls to local diners or shops or to schools and parks & rec centers.  I sense there'd be broad consensus on complete streets across much of the city's 300 square miles, versus the relatively narrow spatial footprint of the silver line.

Money toward Sidewalk, but is it enough relative to the Need

 I saw a quote that the city has > $1 billion in sidewalk needs currently.  Someone mentioned that we should take all the outstanding sidewalk needs, and layer in a requirement that all sidewalks be made into multi-use paths where at all possible, and to get cyclists off the road completely and at different grade so they’re protected.  That would likely be a couple billion, but there’s a transit expenditure that gets spread over all the city versus just alone the silver line’s geography. 

Getting the Greenway Done, and Not Just Making Progress

Then of course there’s accelerating the greenway so that it gets wrapped up in a few years, especially the Charlotte cross trail, versus the nebulous timeframe it currently has.  Maybe that’s already in the current version of the plan, but I’m not even sure.

Shifting Mental Models, Not Just Foisting on them Re-Designs and Re-Configurations

Finding the specific sources of gridlock around the city, shining a spotlight on them, and then proposing solutions to bust them up might actually shake up people’s mental models so that there’s more buy-in.  Changing mental models.  I’m a believer in that.  Too much transit planning feels like it’s being foisted on the car-obsessed versus the painstakingly patient strategy of getting mental models to shift.  Community Outreach similar to what was done for the UDO.  Couldn't the 29-person Gantt Committee's output have then been circulated among neighborhood group meetings in an iterative way to get and incorporate broad-based feedback, and then something presented to Council Committees that seemed much more than half-baked.  That’s the sort of induced demand to actually solve transit woes and to be a multi-modal city we should be engaged in achieving.  

Edited January 15, 2023 by RANYC

[Desert Power]

2 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

In any event, It’s their world (Tim Moore and the Tea Party era GOP) and we just happen to live in it. To think they’d ever be good partners is to waste time. To think they’d ever allow $ go towards even just the silver line is misguided IMO.

Just need to be nicer on Twitter and I'm sure it will happen.

[RANYC]

28 minutes ago, Desert Power said:

Just need to be nicer on Twitter and I'm sure it will happen.

Funny.

Putting twitter warfare aside, I do think Moore's comments may be representative of, dare I say it, the majority of residents in Charlotte.  Silver line boosters might be well served acknowledging the work that needs to be done shifting mental models of so many in this city.  Voting democratic in Charlotte definitely doesn't necessarily mean you want to shift away from car-orientation & dependency.  We have tons of auto-obsessed democratic voters here.  

Edited January 15, 2023 by RANYC

[kermit]

22 hours ago, RANYC said:

Maybe a Roads Focus has a Place in the Solutions Tool-Kit

In fact, someone told me retrofitting the road layout to include more connecting roads to get our overall layout to look a tad more like a grid would better distribute traffic we already have and bust up gridlock.  No, we will never be a perfect grid.  No one believes we have time to make Cotswold into Savannah, but again, achieving with many more connector roads what a grid ultimately attempts to achieve, may be a credible objective of new funding.  Also, accelerating “complete streets” to cover far more ground would make it safer for families across the city’s 300 square miles to take their kids or elderly parents on walks or to take strolls to local diners or shops or to schools and parks & rec centers.  I sense there'd be broad consensus on complete streets across much of the city's 300 square miles, versus the relatively narrow spatial footprint of the silver line.

I like what you are saying about complete streets (although Tim Moore aint buying it). But I do need to ask, what does Charlotte gain from spending millions/billions on "reducing" auto congestion? Any changes to the road network are, at best, temporary relief for drivers, the efforts exacerbate auto dependence, auto dependence prevents density and limits land available for more housing in town, and it takes money away from transit/bike/ped improvements. Finally, its just more asphalt we must pay to maintain.  Increasing road capacity is just a treadmill of futility. I'll concede that it will make some constituents feel better about voting for the associated taxes but it just digs our hole deeper. I could argue that that spending zero on roads and transit might lead to better urban outcomes than a road focused transit plan.

Edited January 16, 2023 by kermit

[15895]

1 hour ago, RANYC said:

Funny.

Putting twitter warfare aside, I do think Moore's comments may be representative of, dare I say it, the majority of residents in Charlotte.  Silver line boosters might be well served acknowledging the work that needs to be done shifting mental models of so many in this city.  Voting democratic in Charlotte definitely doesn't necessarily mean you want to shift away from car-orientation & dependency.  We have tons of auto-obsessed democratic voters here.  

I think it’s multidimensional with Charlotte voters with perhaps you being right that most Charlotteans would overall oppose including low income folks not caring for it.

Charlotte has giant, giant city limits. So its urban population is heavily diluted. There’s literally giants swaths of farmland, exurban feeling areas, rural and the wealthy suburbs (Ballantyne area which tried to break away before and be named “the Town of Providence” or something.  

Those folks will likely always be opposed and I don’t blame them, tbh. A billion dollar for a light rail line that has very few destinations (the blue line actually does ok with SouthEnd through NoDa. A lot of systems in the US, there’s only like a couple downtown destinations you can get to and that’s it.) I don’t blame those people for viewing highway expansion money much better spent and viewing the light rail as a toy to either work uptown or go to a sporting or special event uptown. An extra lane seems like a better deal so you can get to SouthPark Mall, you can get to Freedom Park, you can get to places you need to go regularly. On top of they see these cramped, honestly a little slow light rail trains with 20 minute frequencies. A lane expansion can make it faster to get to many destinations in Charlotte. A few lines, mostly underground in the center city & SouthPark areas and running down 77 further out at 60+ MPH would be useful for them. 
 

For low income folks, I also wouldn't blame them for not caring. The light rail strategy is mostly used as a development tool for riders of a narrow demographic that have vehicles but want to use light rail for fun and perhaps commuting uptown. When it takes 90 minutes one way for lower or the bottom half of middle income to use transit where they need to get. It again is just useless and a vehicle becomes needed. The silver line wouldn’t change that. At all. None of the plans would. It’s slow, cost cutting measures that want to cater to like. 6,000 commuters and a couple thousand regular users and some special event folks and almost all centered around going uptown. We need underground rail in neighborhoods a lot of people don’t even know the name to, support new dense development with low income and affordable housing minimums and dramatically increase the density of these inner-city neighborhoods while trying to ensure affordable & low income housing keeps up. 

For example an underground station here where the red dot is. 

The problem with that is, that’s just not possible & by choice. Yes, there’s lots of property owners but look at cities all across America that literally bulldozed giant portions of neighborhoods. Gone forever by “urban renewal”. Before & After pics of when highways were built. So it’s not like such a concept could never be done. We’ve done it once already with highways… (obviously there was some nefarious shenanigans then so it’s not apples to apples but in the sense we could do large scale projects involving complicated land ownership issues. We could have underground rail in these neighborhoods. Politically, it won’t fly). I personally think the densification and less car dependency even if for only like 200,000 residents would be worth the cost. And the density would generate more revenue, etc but that’s debatable. 

That’s all to say. I agree with you that whether even Charlotteans would vote for a large scale transit plan anyway outside a specific narrow demographic. Low income & working class voters, voters of color, wealthier suburbanites. The transit has to work for them too. And the cheap, low cost transit just won’t work for most people. 
 

Government has to support a large scale, expensive, partial full build system. Underground when needed, fast, etc. Just like we do with highways that are just as expensive, that some intersections are breathtaking in cost for highways expansions just as some mass transit stations can be. We build infrastructure all the time. 
 

This is SC but an interchange for the Panthers HQ was expected to cost no more (lol) than $82 Million dollars… imagine the cost of 77 intersection rebuilds in Charlotte. Yikes! And would those new intersections even lead to much meaningful development along 77 relative to the cost of reconfiguring every intersection for a 77 widening? 
 

 

The expansion of I-77 from uptown to the state line (which will be a toll) os expected to cost at least $2.1 Billion. Isn’t that like. 10 miles? Honestly, a heavy rail line would probably cost that much and I honestly think that would take a lot of people off 77…  (ignoring the blue line)

https://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/transportation-planning-group-gets-cost-estimate-expanding-i-77/QEIIPZGNUBCXTOFSVEILOQN5VQ/?outputType=amp

That $2.1B isn’t even considering other expansions in the Charlotte area. 

If we spent anywhere near that money on mass transit. I think *literally* hundreds of thousands would ride daily and that’s a lot of cars off the road and it would promote density around stations (tax revenue) vs. highways which there’s only so much density you can add even with more highway lanes as the side roads can’t handle increased freeway capacity (aka more hidden cost of highways expansions.) 

We could do expansions right. The powers at be don’t want it. Too many powerful people profit off of highways. Urban areas are political boogeyman (it’s the new red scare.) and without that support, we can’t build things people will view as useful  im not naive to know the politics of that is a non-starter & I also believe it has to work for the region and not just a niche part of the metropolitan area. 

Edited January 15, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[Desert Power]

6 hours ago, RANYC said:

Funny.

Putting twitter warfare aside, I do think Moore's comments may be representative of, dare I say it, the majority of residents in Charlotte.  Silver line boosters might be well served acknowledging the work that needs to be done shifting mental models of so many in this city.  Voting democratic in Charlotte definitely doesn't necessarily mean you want to shift away from car-orientation & dependency.  We have tons of auto-obsessed democratic voters here.  

I think there is a point here.

We have have a city government that has absolutely failed in many ways to support transit. CATS has been very poorly run for years and many things within the city's control take way too long. There is a huge backlog of needed sidewalks and other actions to make our streets safer. This city is not a reliable steward of transit and must become one before asking the taxpayers to fund billions in new spending.

One thing that is annoying from Moore's comments is that politicians or citizens calling out things like separated bike lanes are actually criticizing some of the most effective things our city government has actually gotten done for transit lately.

Unless something changes, this city is going to increasingly choke on auto traffic though.

 

[JRCLT]

“We love cars!”

“But There’s so much traffic!”

“We need less people on the road!”

Obvious solution: Provide more modes of transportation in a safe, efficient, and comfortable manner. Also building places/making policy to encourage those other modes.

What is actually done:
-one more lane one more lane…(encourages more driving and more traffic, when they want the opposite).
-Anti Transit (want less traffic but clearly hates the solution that will solve it while still keeping the same level of commuters by shifting to more mass).
-building places the encourage cars like huge parking lots where the store front is set back hundreds or thousands of feet from the roads and sidewalk. This SFH zoning is not helping anyone with the lack of business in neighborhoods.

What is really happening is the lobbying and manipulation of the masses by the vehicle and oil industry with their massive profits and corporations.

Answer to less traffic = diverse transportation modes/decreasing the need to go far for errands or to access amenities.

If these people loved driving so much and dislike traffic, that is what they would do.

[kermit]

Just stumbled across this. This is roughly how I thought CATS would update their Blue Line vehicle strip maps post Gold Line expansion.

I really like the dot placement showing center vs outer platform. I suppose we could debate the merits of the "Downtown" label all day.

Edited January 16, 2023 by kermit

[nicholas]

On 1/15/2023 at 12:34 PM, RANYC said:

Money toward Sidewalk, but is it enough relative to the Need

 I saw a quote that the city has > $1 billion in sidewalk needs currently.  Someone mentioned that we should take all the outstanding sidewalk needs, and layer in a requirement that all sidewalks be made into multi-use paths where at all possible, and to get cyclists off the road completely and at different grade so they’re protected.  That would likely be a couple billion, but there’s a transit expenditure that gets spread over all the city versus just alone the silver line’s geography. 

How many miles of sidewalks even is that?  I mean I realize there's a lot of labor and planning and materials costs, but over a billion dollars worth..?  Jesus.

I feel like I used to see a decent amount of infrastructure work around the city but there's like...none of that right now (other than some underground utilities projects which are taking forever).  Obviously Covid impacted a lot of things but man, feels like everywhere I go the roads are deteriorating, sidewalks are squeezed in right next to the road (or don't exist), trash in the bike lanes (if they exist), etc.  Graham St in particular is getting really bad between 85 and Uptown.

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, nicholas said:

How many miles of sidewalks even is that?  I mean I realize there's a lot of labor and planning and materials costs, but over a billion dollars worth..?  Jesus.

I feel like I used to see a decent amount of infrastructure work around the city but there's like...none of that right now (other than some underground utilities projects which are taking forever).  Obviously Covid impacted a lot of things but man, feels like everywhere I go the roads are deteriorating, sidewalks are squeezed in right next to the road (or don't exist), trash in the bike lanes (if they exist), etc.  Graham St in particular is getting really bad between 85 and Uptown.

Was in a Charlotte Ledger article from September of last year.  There are apparently 250 miles of identified sidewalk gaps, and at $4 million to $8 million per mile, that's $1 billion to $2 billion in total costs.  Don't ask me why the range is so massive.

[tozmervo]

3 hours ago, nicholas said:

How many miles of sidewalks even is that?  I mean I realize there's a lot of labor and planning and materials costs, but over a billion dollars worth..?  Jesus.

I feel like I used to see a decent amount of infrastructure work around the city but there's like...none of that right now (other than some underground utilities projects which are taking forever).  Obviously Covid impacted a lot of things but man, feels like everywhere I go the roads are deteriorating, sidewalks are squeezed in right next to the road (or don't exist), trash in the bike lanes (if they exist), etc.  Graham St in particular is getting really bad between 85 and Uptown.

I wouldn't be surprised if one of the biggest costs on most streets is real estate/right-of-way acquisition. You're basically lopping off the front 7'-10' off a property that the property owner will permanently lose use of, so there typically has to be just compensation for that real estate. 

[CLT2014]

Honestly the transit plan just doesn't go far enough to make Charlotte NOT a car dependent metro area. We'll see some trips (like getting to work or the airport for some people) shift to the Silver Line, but it will not reduce congestion or make us a metro area where you can enjoy all we have to offer without an automobile. We'll see some improved pockets of density, but they'll still end up coming with parking garages or residents who own cars. 

Even the peer metro areas that have larger or more successful transit systems than us, they've made a small dent in Commuting to Work alone. Denver, Portland, San Diego, Minneapolis, et... are still 70%+ drive alone to work for those that commute per CityLab in 2019 pre corona.

I'd be supportive of an even larger tax if it meant not needing to own a car too, but I don't see the vast majority of people being able to drop car ownership in Charlotte with just the Silver Line and some buses (which CATS is terrible at operating). We still need to do it... But also be realistic this metro still doesn't have a plan to not have people get in cars all the time. At best, we are aspiring to be an "options" metro where you still need a car, but "sometimes" you take the train instead when it happens to work for your trip. And often people are still picking the car as a better option sadly even in areas of Charlotte "well served by transit".... If you live at the Sunnyside Gold Line stop and are meeting a client for coffee this morning at Atherton Mill.... It is a 12 minute drive or 35 minutes on public transit... Only enthusiasts are going to more than double their journey for coffee and ditch the car for that trip.

Edited January 17, 2023 by CLT2014