CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[go_vertical]

Did anyone catch Charlotte Talks this morning?  They were discussing the silver line's planning, routing, potential (or lack of) for federal funding, etc.  I was only able to listen to a minute or two and was curious if anything new or noteworthy was mentioned. 

[Third Strike]

11 hours ago, kayman said:

The CATS Envision My Ride plan already adopted by MTC covers the BRT corridors in the city. 

Envision My Ride 

The issue is getting the funding in place to implement these needed improvements and BRT roll out. 

For Albemarle Road at least, there are future plans of widening the median from Central Ave to East WT Harris and widening the road to six lanes from East WT Harris to I-485. CATS should work with the NCDOT to preserve and design the median for future transit, like how the new US 74 bridge across the Catawba has space for the Silver Line. 

[southslider]

20 hours ago, kayman said:

The CATS Envision My Ride plan already adopted by MTC covers the BRT corridors in the city. 

If you call signal priority, queue jumps, and enhanced stops "BRT," then sure.  As for seriously prioritizing bus, the very pilot listed for the CATS Envision My Ride plan was Central Ave, which Car-lot killed.  So unless CATS finds some easier wins soon, I truly worry their Envision My Ride plan may join Red Line on the shelf.

[kayman]

On 12/30/2022 at 8:40 PM, southslider said:

If you call signal priority, queue jumps, and enhanced stops "BRT," then sure.  As for seriously prioritizing bus, the very pilot listed for the CATS Envision My Ride plan was Central Ave, which Car-lot killed.  So unless CATS finds some easier wins soon, I truly worry their Envision My Ride plan may join Red Line on the shelf.

The CoC City Council forced CATS to remove the bus/bike-only lane from Central Avenue.  Hence why I've long said municipal government especially municipal elected officials shouldn't have any authority of undoing regional mass transit. Separation of MTC/CATS from CoC wouldn't have resulted in that undoing of a bus-bike only along a major corridor like Central. 

I'm involved in the implementation of the Envision My Ride . It's not going to wind up dead as long as I'm around and I'm here for the long haul.  FYI, Albemarle and Freedom corridor studies and improvements are moving forward as mentioned in that plan.

Its problem with full implementation is funding. So you want to see the plan implemented, lobby your state legislative representation to pass referendum to be put on the ballot. Also lobby for an independent, regional, mass transit authority as well. 

Edited January 1, 2023 by kayman

[Hushpuppy321]

11 hours ago, kayman said:

The CoC City Council forced CATS to remove the bus/bike-only lane from Central Avenue.  Hence why I've long said municipal government especially municipal elected officials shouldn't have any authority of undoing regional mass transit. Separation of MTC/CATS from CoC wouldn't have resulted in that undoing of a bus-bike only along a major  corridor line Central. 

I'm involved in the implementation of the Envision My Ride among many regional transit projects. It's not going to wind up dead as long as I'm around and I'm here for the long haul.  FYI, Albemarle and Freedom corridor studies and improvements are moving forward as mentioned in that plan.

Its problem with full implementation is funding. So you want to see the plan implemented, lobby your state legislative representation to pass referendum to be put on the ballot. Also lobby for an independent, regional, mass transit authority as well. 

Agreed - We need a Regional Transit Authority with Tax & Spend powers.

[CLT2014]

12 hours ago, kayman said:

Its problem with full implementation is funding. So you want to see the plan implemented, lobby your state legislative representation to pass referendum to be put on the ballot. Also lobby for an independent, regional, mass transit authority as well. 

Do CATS and the MTC have a cohesive funding strategy for projects planned for which we can lobby? How much sales tax do they need, what are other sources of funds, how much Federal match are they hoping for, et... I don't think anything like that has been clearly articulated to the citizens of Charlotte other than "they are working on it" and "some sort of tax is needed." Ordinary citizens don't even know what they should be asking the Legislature for, so the people who have a full time job dedicated to transit should be articulating that ask to citizens so it is a cohesive message. Templated emails to send, signature gathering, letter campaigns, et.

I also haven't heard anything about how the lobbying has gone by politicians and employees of CATS.... Who are the roadblocks in the legislature we need to contact, what are their concerns, et... Have they even started working with the Legislature yet?

Edited December 31, 2022 by CLT2014

[kayman]

On 12/31/2022 at 12:06 PM, CLT2014 said:

Do CATS and the MTC have a cohesive funding strategy for projects planned for which we can lobby? How much sales tax do they need, what are other sources of funds, how much Federal match are they hoping for, et... I don't think anything like that has been clearly articulated to the citizens of Charlotte other than "they are working on it" and "some sort of tax is needed." Ordinary citizens don't even know what they should be asking the Legislature for, so the people who have a full time job dedicated to transit should be articulating that ask to citizens so it is a cohesive message. Templated emails to send, signature gathering, letter campaigns, et.

To answer the first question, yes the cohesive funding strategy was organized and articulated under the names "Charlotte Moves" and later the "Charlotte Transformative Mobility Network" initiative.  The initiative called for a countywide, full penny sales tax referendum, that was going to be 50% roadway,  25% transit, and 25% greenway/trails/sidewalk/bicycle/multi-use path infrastructure.  However, due to the meddling of Marcus Jones and other City of Charlotte management  refusing to allow the initiative project manager to keep the then CoC City Council members regularly briefed on the status of the initiative, that project manager quit in protest. As a result it stalled.  The federal match is 50% and sales taxes would be the local 50% needed since the GOP-led NCGA refused to allow NCDOT to use SMAP funding to provide a 25% state match to the local 50%. 

On 12/31/2022 at 12:06 PM, CLT2014 said:

I also haven't heard anything about how the lobbying has gone by politicians and employees of CATS.... Who are the roadblocks in the legislature we need to contact, what are their concerns, et... Have they even started working with the Legislature yet?

The lobbying hasn't happened because they (CoC City Management) aren't trying to allow the city lobbying to further occur. They (CoC City Manager Office) basically told Charlotte Mayor Vi Lyles to stop going to Raleigh to get the 1-cent referendum on the ballot.  (Another huge failing of a council-manager form of municipal government as this type of lobbying requires a strong, independent, public-elected executive branch, city leadership, i.e., a strong mayor, to beacon relationships and champion on the city's behalf with state legislative representation in both the NC House and Senate across the aisles without any partisan b.s. getting in the way of the economic benefits and windfalls that would come from major transit investments.  If you want to know why I said that in 2016 the then-mayor of Atlanta Kasim Reed lobbied the Georgia General Assembly to allow the City of Atlanta to have the More-MARTA municipal 1/2 cent sales tax transit referendum to be put on the ballot in 2016. The referendum passed and the transit improvement initiatives have been going on since 2017.)

Instead, here we (the citizens) have to pressure our elected leadership to lobby for the North Carolina General Assembly to allow the 1 cent to get there.  Also since we have a CoC City Council, City Attorney, and City Manager too snakebitten to act because of they are still scared from the fall out of H.B. 2 still we have to act on our own behalf to move things forward. 

What worked in 1998, 2007 to further regional mass transit won't work in 2023 as the hyper-partisanship of the NCGA GOP is very anti-Charlotte because it's no longer a then majority white city that was led by GOP officials. It's now a multicultural, major city that going to need a transformational elected official who has the gumption to go to the NCGA in Raleigh to truly lobby and develop relationships with all of the Charlotte area legislative representation across the aisles for the Charlotte area 1-cent sales tax, transit referendum to be on the ballot.

Charlotte is a major US city, the 16th largest, but has an elected, part-time political body of a small-town.  The City Manager must allow the elected officials to be fully prepared and informed of all matters to answer to constituents.  Instead they keep them in the dark because they want to control the narrative for their own job security. That's wrong and why there is so much confusion.

We need a full-time, mayor (chief executive officer and an official to work with the state government) and a full-time,  city council (legislative) along with a non-elected, city management/administrator structure to run the daily municipal government like a place like Huntsville, Alabama has.

Edited January 1, 2023 by kayman

[CLT2014]

Thanks for the insight (sounds like you are an insider).... It is helpful. And also alarming that our city government sounds like it is pretty dysfunctional right now.

[kayman]

1 minute ago, CLT2014 said:

Thanks for the insight (sounds like you are an insider).... It is helpful. And also alarming that our city government sounds like it is pretty dysfunctional right now.

I've been raising hell from the pragmatic citizen's perspective on things from urban design to transit since day one.  It's why I fight so hard for things that matters most to people who voice that on this board to change and become reality within the CoC municipal government, other regional boards, NCGA, & the SC General Assembly.  We deserve to have a true, bi-state,  regional transportation authority in Metro Charlotte in 2023.

[CLT2014]

1 hour ago, kayman said:

I've been raising hell from the pragmatic citizen's perspective on things from urban design to transit since day one.  It's why I fight so hard for things that matters most to people who voice that on this board to change and become reality within the CoC municipal government, other regional boards, NCGA, & the SC General Assembly.  We deserve to have a true, bi-state,  regional transportation authority in Metro Charlotte in 2023.

The only risk of a bi-state regional authority.... would adjacent counties want to participate if they didn't have a proportional share of board seats and receiving transit speding? The suburban counties of Gaston, York, Lancaster, Iredell, Cabarrus, and Union have roughly the same population as Mecklenburg and skew far more conservative / anti-tax. My fear is a regional transit authority made up of roughly 50% of suburban county districts would be more focused on addressing suburban commuting to protect the interests of their constituents and it could become political very fast on transit spending that is solely in Mecklenburg, where transit like light rail is most viable. I would guess projects like the Silver Line would fail a popular vote if Gaston, Cabarrus, Lancaster, York, et... were included (i.e. "what's in it for them to have a tax to fund light rail in Charlotte.")

The actual in-town areas that would benefit most from public transit would end up getting shelved to "spread the love" for a light rail line from Rock Hill to Fort Mill. 

Edited December 31, 2022 by CLT2014

[kayman]

7 hours ago, CLT2014 said:

The only risk of a bi-state regional authority.... would adjacent counties want to participate if they didn't have a proportional share of board seats and receiving transit speding? The suburban counties of Gaston, York, Lancaster, Iredell, Cabarrus, and Union have roughly the same population as Mecklenburg and skew far more conservative / anti-tax. My fear is a regional transit authority made up of roughly 50% of suburban county districts would be more focused on addressing suburban commuting to protect the interests of their constituents and it could become political very fast on transit spending that is solely in Mecklenburg, where transit like light rail is most viable. I would guess projects like the Silver Line would fail a popular vote if Gaston, Cabarrus, Lancaster, York, et... were included (i.e. "what's in it for them to have a tax to fund light rail in Charlotte.")

The actual in-town areas that would benefit most from public transit would end up getting shelved to "spread the love" for a light rail line from Rock Hill to Fort Mill. 

That is a risk but we have to get to that point. We have to remember that state law specifies anything involving the Mecklenburg County transit sales tax funds must be spent only on transit improvements within the county boundaries.  A regional transit authority board can't make funds from the Mecklenburg transit sales tax be spent in another county. Intown neighborhoods would benefit but the northern Mecklenburg towns would have to also benefit with this scheme such as guarantees for continuing progress with the LYNX Red Line and/or the I-77 BRT North along with full stations and park-and-ride lots per the study recommendations. 

Similar, bylaws are in place with the Triangle Transit Authority aka GoTriangle involving the  transit sales taxes generated in Waske, Durham, or Orange counties.

Also Cabarrus and Gaston aren't as politically conservative as the others. We have a lot more allies in Gastonia and Concord (and even Harrisburg) nowadays than we did in 1998 and 2007. Cabarrus has kicked off a study to prepare a project list for their tentative transit sales tax referendum based off the Connect Beyond implementation recommendations.  Gaston would be more on board for the county transit sales tax even if it's just Belmont, McAdenville, Cramerton, and Gastonia if the LYNX Silver Line is on the table.  It's possible with the state transit funding statute to only have select number of municipalities to participate in a referendum. That's been discussed several times amongst the jurisdictions of Stallings and Indian Trail in western Union with the LYNX Silver Line. 

It will be a challenge but we can make some major strides forward on regional mass transit.  We also cannot fear failure as a reason for the lack of trying to build regional alliances with our urban neighboring counties along the I-85 corridor.

Edited January 1, 2023 by kayman

[southslider]

Ironic that a Council concern for keeping the LPA is CTC redevelopment when the LPA completely misses the CTC.

[KJHburg]

Interesting how the numbers are changing on the the Silver Line route.

https://www.wfae.org/charlotte-area/2023-01-04/in-a-reversal-cats-now-says-silver-line-has-most-passengers-by-avoiding-heart-of-uptown

[JRCLT]

If they really want it elevated and not though the heart of uptown why not do something similar to this on 9th St. to 10 St. after N. Tryon St with the transition likely before Tryon on Mecklenburg owned land.. Keeping the street but having the elevated portion above. I say these sections because they have existing medians that could more easily accommodate the elevated portions of the track. This way is more centered over the area they mention they want to be stimulated while also being decent transit because it’s closer to where people ARE. last time I checked people are living on 277 (maybe under it but that’s another issue…). Current location is so abandoned and I fail to understand how this was the best they could come up with. On the little scraps of land NCDOT owns from the monstrous and ill-conceived 277 exits. It’s better in every way so I am (with some cons because any option has downsides no matter what option). This is very similar to Tyvola Station but on a street median. Honestly don’t know how shoving it in that corner helps anyone. Development wise? I for sure know they aren’t demolishing 277 so development would be on the other side of it anyways? 277 isn’t very nice to cross under and the other side is mostly a rail yard. Walkability would need to improve greatly. Much investment in pedestrian infrastructure.

One issue I see could be an interesting problem to solve would be the connection they wan between the blue line and the silver so that they can move cars between them. Likely taking some land for development away…but that’s why engineers exist and I’m sure there’s a solution to that.

This is Great Mall Pkwy in Milpitas, CA just outside San Jose in the Bay Area.

[MarcoPolo]

KJHBurg, I hope your use of the word "interesting" is intended  as an expression of doubt as to the legitimacy of the ridership numbers now being circulated and the competence of the selected proposal?  If so, I suggest a new font color for "sarcastic" commentary!  Maybe purple?  If you are being sarcastic, I agree...the latest numbers are "interesting".   They are also entirely fictitious and transparently self-serving.   You only need to read Brent Cagle's and Andy Mock's responses in the article to realize this, as they are left to babble their way toward partial cover by offering to "go back and take a look at what changed".    I nearly chocked on my drink in laughter reading this...imagining the look on their faces as they uttered such nonsense!  It must have physically hurt their mouths to speak that response, lol!

Such public facing, bold faced ineptitude must have a formidable behind the scenes reason for being.   Why are CATS and Council conspiring to generate self-serving studies to promote an obvious transit planning failure?   Since the selected Option has no bearing on transit and transit usage, (and as discussed previously, even less so on sustainable/resilient development) whatever has happened "behind the scenes" must be one hell of a barrier to common sense.   I can only deduce that it is politically based, as such motives are usually the most idiotic, and drenched in special interest ideologies.   As discussed in my previous post, no competent and respected transportation firm, transit financing authority, or transit advocacy group would have their name anywhere near a recommendation as asinine as this.  Maybe the real reasons will be made public some day when, after the proposal fails to secure funding after multiple tries, people with hands raised will ask why one of the most important infrastructure investments in the City's history was so poorly managed.  I look forward to that day when we are made privy to the special interests and their cronies responsible for this fiasco.  

[15895]

7 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Interesting how the numbers are changing on the the Silver Line route.

https://www.wfae.org/charlotte-area/2023-01-04/in-a-reversal-cats-now-says-silver-line-has-most-passengers-by-avoiding-heart-of-uptown

I did a “0.o” reaction emoji to your post, not because of what you said, but I’m surprised by the article and the data in it. I’m not saying it’s wrong, but I’m surprised. I guess we’ll see what Cagle comes back with and I’m interested in @kayman’s thoughts.

[Reverie39]

I'm OOTL - will the Silver Line have 2-car trains or 3-car trains at the moment? I really hope the answer is to at least build all the stations for 3-car capacity. Plan for the future. Charlotte is becoming dense and highly populated, it will need more than just 2 cars per train soon. The Blue Line already needs more considering the low frequencies.

[DavieNative]

I'm probably in  minority but I like the way they have the silver line routed going around uptown.  The best mass transit systems have circulators and connectivity. This option provides half of a circulator and connectivity to the gold, blue, and gateway station. This route seems to be the best future option beyond drilling under the city which we all know they can't afford.

[kermit]

11 hours ago, DavieNative said:

I'm probably in  minority but I like the way they have the silver line routed going around uptown.  The best mass transit systems have circulators and connectivity. This option provides half of a circulator and connectivity to the gold, blue, and gateway station. This route seems to be the best future option beyond drilling under the city which we all know they can't afford. don't want to pay for

Fixed it for you. [I am not criticizing your post, I agree that there are some positive aspects to the 11th st route]

Transit is an investment, not an expense. The Charlotte economy produces around $155 billion a year, we can totally afford the same infrastructure that smaller (and less productive) cities like Barcelona, Porto, Munich, Milan, Cologne, Lyon, Bilbao, Vienna, Oslo, Helsinki, Stockholm, Newcastle, Amsterdam, Perth.... already have.

IMO the best routing for mobility and circulation is my, completely unrealistic, Charlotte Loop plan where the Silver from Matthews loops uptown on tracks built on 277, while the Silver to the airport / Gaston makes the same loop in the other direction. Second best routing (IMO) is a Trade street tunnel. Third best (without justification) is Trade Street surface running in dedicated ROW.  I don't mean to be tearing into your preference, I don't feel like the 11th street route is awful, but it will create some problems that will need to be solved.

 

Edited January 6, 2023 by kermit

[TCLT]

On 1/4/2023 at 9:50 AM, KJHburg said:

Interesting how the numbers are changing on the the Silver Line route.

https://www.wfae.org/charlotte-area/2023-01-04/in-a-reversal-cats-now-says-silver-line-has-most-passengers-by-avoiding-heart-of-uptown

I'm not sure I understand the concern with the change in ridership projections. Is it crazy to think that modeling with new assumptions about remote and hybrid work would lower ridership on the alternative proposals? But let's assume CATS is being disingenuous and fabricated the new numbers. So what? The previous projection showed the alternatives with somewhere around 6000 daily riders more than the LPA (~35000 vs ~29000). The new projection is a change of a few thousand riders. And that is 30 years from now. 6000 +/- a few thousand daily riders is insignificant imo. That's less than the daily traffic on College Street and most of the other uptown streets. Independence Blvd carries over 100,000 cars per day. Brookshire and Belk are similar. There's no reason to pass up the development opportunity, break continuity with the western portion and connectivity to the airport, and waste the existing investment in the Gold Line to maybe get an extra 6000 riders. Until the city and suburbs densify significantly and a more robust transit network is built out, I don't see how ridership should or can be a primary consideration when making transit investments. Development and density along and around the lines seems to be more useful for the city's tax base, sustainability, and future viability of a transit system.

[kayman]

21 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I did a “0.o” reaction emoji to your post, not because of what you said, but I’m surprised by the article and the data in it. I’m not saying it’s wrong, but I’m surprised. I guess we’ll see what Cagle comes back with and I’m interested in @kayman’s thoughts.

My only take is this was expected. I like the ULI in most circumstances but they gotten on the wrong side of this issue last summer.

I was in the 4th Ward today. It's a prime area for more non-automative/transit connections & high density, urban infill development to the rest of the region. The 4th Ward is inaccessible except by an automobile, and there should be more ways for those residents along others to access and further enhance density in the lower density non-resident parcels in that area.  The level of walkability in that area can be only rivaled by most other major cities across the South except New Orleans and Washington.  

[elrodvt]

20 minutes ago, kayman said:

My only take is this was expected. I like the ULI in most circumstances but they gotten on the wrong side of this issue last summer.

I was in the 4th Ward today. It's a prime area for more non-automative/transit connections & high density, urban infill development to the rest of the region. The 4th Ward is inaccessible except by an automobile, and there should be more ways for those residents along others to access and further enhance density in the lower density non-resident parcels in that area.  The level of walkability in that area can be only rivaled by most other major cities across the South except New Orleans and Washington.  

I'm not positive what your last sentence means. Assuming your saying only DC and NO rival clt 4th that sounds right to me. I always forget about NO. Being in LA is such a negative it's easy to discount. I haven't been there in forever but thought ybor in Tampa had potential. Is that dead now?

[KJHburg]

23 hours ago, MarcoPolo said:

KJHBurg, I hope your use of the word "interesting" is intended  as an expression of doubt as to the legitimacy of the ridership numbers now being circulated and the competence of the selected proposal?

Yes it seems different numbers can be come up with to prove almost any point.  when I say interesting like that I am saying I don't what to believe. 

[kayman]

1 hour ago, elrodvt said:

I'm not positive what your last sentence means. Assuming your saying only DC and NO rival clt 4th that sounds right to me. I always forget about NO. Being in LA is such a negative it's easy to discount. I haven't been there in forever but thought ybor in Tampa had potential. Is that dead now?

Yeah, I'm saying 4th Ward has that type of potential. Ybor City also does have potential in Tampa.

Edited January 5, 2023 by kayman

[KJHburg]

Here is a report about CATS management and so forth. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TPR9GbleT75me68Sa1KNzVLu3-ojnL_z/view

summary article here

https://www.wfae.org/charlotte-area/2022-12-23/charlottes-transit-agency-needs-a-major-overhaul-management-review-finds