CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[DMann]

Hey Tarhoosier, I used to live on Mt Washington!  Used to take the Incline down and walk across the Smithfield Bridge to go to work.

[Matthew.Brendan]

 

Speaks for itself really. 

[Charlotte Night]

^^^

Ouch! When simple statistics hurt as bad as an insult!

If it's of any consolation, at least one of the city council members who voted yes on Phase 3 (June 2022) realizes this:

“Right now, the streetcar is not really a more appealing option to folks than getting into a single passenger vehicle,” Egleston said.

For more context:

But Egleston said he won’t vote in favor of expanding this line if the streetcar stays in traffic. He wants it to be more like light rail and operate in its own right of way. That idea is backed by Councilman Malcolm Graham.

Source: Next phase of Charlotte streetcar to move forward – WSOC TV

[Nathan2]

CATS comes off as if they are just guessing their way to the silver line route. Every question was answered without fact and only with veiled guesses.  How are we not farther along at this point? Coming up with more route options after selecting the preferred route seems to be handicapping any forward movement. At this point I have lost complete confidence in the silver line. Not exploring tunneling and running the line next to highways the whole way will miss too many riders. 

[southslider]

We need some realistic cost comparisons. Unless they come back with substantial cost savings soon, Charlotte will be lucky to see any bit of Silver Line in a regional tax.

[tozmervo]

On 11/4/2022 at 4:03 PM, Nathan2 said:

CATS comes off as if they are just guessing their way to the silver line route. Every question was answered without fact and only with veiled guesses.  How are we not farther along at this point? Coming up with more route options after selecting the preferred route seems to be handicapping any forward movement. At this point I have lost complete confidence in the silver line. Not exploring tunneling and running the line next to highways the whole way will miss too many riders. 

This is the process. They had the route, politicos and others asked them to look at alternatives to parts of the route. The BLE went through similar studies. 

[JRCLT]

S-Line @ CGS



I really like the alignment for gold-silver interlining. The benefits in my opinion far outweigh the issues.

You can tell some of the benefits and costs to each alignment. You can see the travel times are overall similar to that of the LPA and do it at a much lower price tag. Some things I thought about:

-dedicated guide ways is a must/will be due to light rail standards.

-Not all of trade would need to be reconstructed, there sections of track along the shared route that could definitely remain as they currently exist.

-everyone is worried about traffic disruption but light cycles are pretty short and a train passing by every 5 min (ideally) through shared trade shouldn’t necessarily cause larger than normal disruptions.

-I’ve seen a comment say reconstruction would be a negative, but I think in the long run it would be worth it.

-Really understated plus is the connection between Central and Levine Campuses (Two of CPCCs largest campuses by student head count, Levine is stated as an expansion reduce crowding from central campus). which should less than 25 min based on their estimates to CTC. From a student perspective I think it’s great to connect two campuses especially for those that may have classes in both.

-The line is at grade which makes it better at interacting with uptown than being guided over. Much more direct connections to places where people want to go.

- Substantially better and greater transfers between gold and silver lines [what would have been potential transfer points between Pecan Station (S-Line) and Sunnyside or The plaza stations (gold-line)] and way better transfer between silver and blue lines.

- also “silver” and “gold” together just makes sense lol just add “bronze” to the mix and we got the (main) triad for the Hierarchy of Precious Metals.

Really recommend watching the meetings they provide a lot of information and updates that are good to know if this is an interest.

Edit: Also wanted to mention it would be competitive with driving between the two CPCC campuses and if traffic volume is high enough getting from Levine to Central would be faster via silver than driving according to those time estimates.

[Reverie39]

On 11/9/2022 at 8:42 PM, JeanClt said:

S-Line @ CGS



I really like the alignment for gold-silver interlining. The benefits in my opinion far outweigh the issues.

You can tell some of the benefits and costs to each alignment. You can see the travel times are overall similar to that of the LPA and do it at a much lower price tag. Some things I thought about:

-dedicated guide ways is a must/will be due to light rail standards.

-Not all of trade would need to be reconstructed, there sections of track along the shared route that could definitely remain as they currently exist.

-everyone is worried about traffic disruption but light cycles are pretty short and a train passing by every 5 min (ideally) through shared trade shouldn’t necessarily cause larger than normal disruptions.

-I’ve seen a comment say reconstruction would be a negative, but I think in the long run it would be worth it.

-Really understated plus is the connection between Central and Levine Campuses (Two of CPCCs largest campuses by student head count, Levine is stated as an expansion reduce crowding from central campus). which should less than 25 min based on their estimates to CTC. From a student perspective I think it’s great to connect two campuses especially for those that may have classes in both.

-The line is at grade which makes it better at interacting with uptown than being guided over. Much more direct connections to places where people want to go.

- Substantially better and greater transfers between gold and silver lines [what would have been potential transfer points between Pecan Station (S-Line) and Sunnyside or The plaza stations (gold-line)] and way better transfer between silver and blue lines.

- also “silver” and “gold” together just makes sense lol just add “bronze” to the mix and we got the (main) triad for the Hierarchy of Precious Metals.

Really recommend watching the meetings they provide a lot of information and updates that are good to know if this is an interest.

Edit: Also wanted to mention it would be competitive with driving between the two CPCC campuses and if traffic volume is high enough getting from Levine to Central would be faster via silver than driving according to those time estimates.

So would this be entirely separated from traffic? Is that what you mean by "dedicated guide ways"? I hope so, but the rendering makes it look like it's sharing a road with cars. 

[kayman]

2 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

So would this be entirely separated from traffic? Is that what you mean by "dedicated guide ways"? I hope so, but the rendering makes it look like it's sharing a road with cars. 

It would be sharing the road with mixed traffic.

It's cheap, wack, and poorly thought out alternative.  The LPA might be more expensive but it opens up more of Uptown to developable density induced by the alignment.  The transfer issue can be solved by requiring CATS to craft a multilevel, covered, ADA-compliant mobility hub around the LYNX Blue Line & proposed Silver Line transit station near 9th Street.  The key is apply pressure to CATS and MTC leadership to make that happen by attending the MTC monthly meetings and any public outreach meetings around the Silver Line.

This can be done right not cheap

[southslider]

Trade St won't become devoid of cars, though a block of Elizabeth at CPCC may. There also won't be any control gates or crossing arms, just curbs, bollards, or raised delineation, along with more complex signal timing.  Entire stations will be eliminated, while remaining stations will be entirely reconstructed. Tracks in curb lanes Uptown will be rebuilt to the curb, while tracks already in the middle will still be reconstructed just to take slight curves out.

>>>Add all these changes to Trade St up, and there's no way Shared Gold Line costs less than Shared Blue Line, which already has traffic separation, plus two of its stations extended to three-car platforms.

[JRCLT]

So would this be entirely separated from traffic? Is that what you mean by "dedicated guide ways"? I hope so, but the rendering makes it look like it's sharing a road with cars. 

If it’s to be light rail standard as they need it and will need it, yes. It will not share the “lane” with vehicles. It would be on its own “dedicated” guide way. This is their plan. I wouldn’t be as enthusiastic about it if it wasn’t what they are planning for.

Edit: But yes it would share the road with cars like Tryon but the street would be, as seen in the render, narrower which is better so pedestrians for easier crossing.

[JRCLT]

It would be sharing the road with mixed traffic.
It's cheap, wack, and poorly thought out alternative.  The LPA might be more expensive but it opens up more of Uptown to developable density induced by the alignment.  The transfer issue can be solved by requiring CATS to craft a multilevel, covered, ADA-compliant mobility hub around the LYNX Blue Line & proposed Silver Line transit station near 9th Street.  The key is apply pressure to CATS and MTC leadership to make that happen by attending the MTC monthly meetings and any public outreach meetings around the Silver Line.
This can be done right not cheap

This is not wack? It’s just an analysis on the best way to get a line through crowded uptown. Just because it costs less does not mean it is a bad thing. Sure going on cheaper materials or an easier route can be detrimental to a project lifecycle use and future prospects, but looking at another alternative that is less costly does not mean less quality or usefulness. North Tryon is seeing some development already and with the 7th and Tryon, INLIVIAN, the now finished Ellis, the hotel next to it, etc. all of those are pushing for more development North. The light rail sure would cause more…probably. If it’s to provide better development, sure. To provide riders better access to uptown the trade route would be my pick. Uptown is much more walkable than any area in the city so have Omg the line not north and not near a highway lol would be better for riders. Also if anything Trade (the area between Tryon and Hawthorne) needs just as much development push when you look that area. The connections between the gold and silver and blue are just unbeatable by the LPA, the cost not just getting through uptown, but at gateway where the LPA would have to bridge over the NS tracks makes more expensive versus cruising under it along the gold line then heading west in the same direction as the LPA where the gold line and silver would separate. For the street experience also to pedestrians. Where is the pedestrian interaction better along the line? Is it while it’s raised up in places south and NoDa, Optimist Park areas? Or in south end where all the stations and tracks are at ground level?

Also I want to emphasize that I only go along with this if there’s dedicated guide ways meaning NO CARS ON TRACKS. Also preemption they want that too like the blue line has on north Tryon.

[kayman]

1 hour ago, JeanClt said:

This is not wack? It’s just an analysis on the best way to get a line through crowded uptown. Just because it costs less does not mean it is a bad thing. Sure going on cheaper materials or an easier route can be detrimental to a project lifecycle use and future prospects, but looking at another alternative that is less costly does not mean less quality or usefulness. North Tryon is seeing some development already and with the 7th and Tryon, INLIVIAN, the now finished Ellis, the hotel next to it, etc. all of those are pushing for more development North. The light rail sure would cause more…probably. If it’s to provide better development, sure. To provide riders better access to uptown the trade route would be my pick. Uptown is much more walkable than any area in the city so have Omg the line not north and not near a highway lol would be better for riders. Also if anything Trade (the area between Tryon and Hawthorne) needs just as much development push when you look that area. The connections between the gold and silver and blue are just unbeatable by the LPA, the cost not just getting through uptown, but at gateway where the LPA would have to bridge over the NS tracks makes more expensive versus cruising under it along the gold line then heading west in the same direction as the LPA where the gold line and silver would separate. For the street experience also to pedestrians. Where is the pedestrian interaction better along the line? Is it while it’s raised up in places south and NoDa, Optimist Park areas? Or in south end where all the stations and tracks are at ground level?

Also I want to emphasize that I only go along with this if there’s dedicated guide ways meaning NO CARS ON TRACKS. Also preemption they want that too like the blue line has on north Tryon.

The LYNX Gold Line already goes through the center of the Uptown.  It provides ample local stops with its station platforms.  The remedy to the Gold Line problems is Transit Signal Priority system along the route along with higher frequency. It's the north-to-due-east route through the region with future terminus in East Charlotte at the soon-to-be reconstructed Eastland Transit Hub. 

The LYNX Silver Line LPA is suffice at what it will do by providing a west-to-southeast route through Uptown with a direct connection to the CLT Airport. 

[Desert Power]

7 hours ago, southslider said:

Trade St won't become devoid of cars, though a block of Elizabeth at CPCC may. There also won't be any control gates or crossing arms, just curbs, bollards, or raised delineation, along with more complex signal timing.  Entire stations will be eliminated, while remaining stations will be entirely reconstructed. Tracks in curb lanes Uptown will be rebuilt to the curb, while tracks already in the middle will still be reconstructed just to take slight curves out.

All of this means a substantial shutdown of the Gold Line during construction as well. Going through Trade Street seems like a horrible idea.

[Reverie39]

6 hours ago, JeanClt said:

If it’s to be light rail standard as they need it and will need it, yes. It will not share the “lane” with vehicles. It would be on its own “dedicated” guide way. This is their plan. I wouldn’t be as enthusiastic about it if it wasn’t what they are planning for.

Edit: But yes it would share the road with cars like Tryon but the street would be, as seen in the render, narrower which is better so pedestrians for easier crossing.

I see. So this is sort of a compromise solution between completely replacing Trade St. with a railway and a Gold Line style streetcar. 

I guess I can get behind it because I really like the actual route it takes through Uptown. But the lack of crossing arms /control gates is interesting. An important follow-up question might be: just how well can signals be timed? Is it possible to ensure this line has a smooth ride through Uptown without stopping at any intersections to let traffic pass? Or at the very least with infrequent/minimal stoppage? I think this is hugely important because it's one of the biggest advantages of rail transit to me: skipping traffic, not interacting with cars at all.

[tozmervo]

Oh, good. We're not dead last.

https://transitrecovery.com/agency/?id=40008

 

[JRCLT]

The LYNX Gold Line already goes through the center of the Uptown.  It provides ample local stops with its station platforms.  The remedy to the Gold Line problems is Transit Signal Priority system along the route along with higher frequency. It's the north-to-due-east route through the region with future terminus in East Charlotte at the soon-to-be reconstructed Eastland Transit Hub. 
The LYNX Silver Line LPA is suffice at what it will do by providing a west-to-southeast route through Uptown with a direct connection to the CLT Airport. 

You make it sounds like this type of alignment is rare in city centers and as if it is redundant? This would increase the frequency to half the wait time of whatever the silver and the gold line would be at. Signal priority is CDOTs jurisdiction CATS can’t go and set up the signals as if they own the roads, because they don’t. CDOT is the entity standing in the way of CATS, CATS WANTS signal priority. With the silver line it’s essentially a guarantee the gold line will get priority. At the very least for the section that gold and silver share. Silver line LPA I’d argue doesn’t go through uptown. It’s stuck between a highway and another road way up on a bridge. Sure reliability when grade separated, but at the cost of accessibility and little interaction with the area around it. You need look no further than the blue line. Look at the development (since you mentioned development on North Tyron uptown) around stations that are high above grade and bounded by tracks (similar effect to what 277 would cause) versus those that are not elevated and see the difference in development. With the exception of 36th st since it is at the “center” of a growing neighborhood, and isn’t entirely isolated like the other blue line stations such as Tyvola and not nearly as isolated as the elevated silver line would be.

I’ve said this before many times and I’ll say if there was a better way of getting the line at grade and not elevated at least not elevated stations that went through somewhere other than trade in the same orientation (i.e. not the blue line interlining) then I would totally support it too.

[JRCLT]

I see. So this is sort of a compromise solution between completely replacing Trade St. with a railway and a Gold Line style streetcar. 
I guess I can get behind it because I really like the actual route it takes through Uptown. But the lack of crossing arms /control gates is interesting. An important follow-up question might be: just how well can signals be timed? Is it possible to ensure this line has a smooth ride through Uptown without stopping at any intersections to let traffic pass? Or at the very least with infrequent/minimal stoppage? I think this is hugely important because it's one of the biggest advantages of rail transit to me: skipping traffic, not interacting with cars at all.

It’s very effective due to how priority signaling works. It will change the lights well in advance of the trains arrival to where trade traffic thoroughfare would get the green light (the direction the train is going in). There would need to be planning for traffic light timing and such and when each point of traffic flow lines gets a turn when a train is passing and when it’s not. If you are familiar with how the blue line runs on North Tryon it would be something very similar to what happens there in terms of preemption (traffic lighting priority). It’s hard to tell how it works within the train but if you have driven through Tryon you can see how the train takes priority at intersections. Complete opposite of what Gold line is now and what it really should have been.

[15895]

I think the issue in Charlotte is:

1.) The state is not supportive of Rail Transit and makes it hard for local governments to even raise taxes for mass transit. (Mass transit had historic amounts approved this election on referendums for mass transit. San Franciscans approved $1.9 Billion in bonds, Massachusetts $1.3 Billion, $52.6 Million in Arlington, VA. At least for the DC region, I have no idea how many Billions are going towards mass transit but it’s a lot of billions. MD, VA, DC, local municipalities, referendums, infrastructure bill, private companies… it’s a ton of money.) It’s likely Charlotte would have similar support but without the backing of the state, other funding sources evaporate. Even the blue line was like a 25/25/50 (county/state/federal) funding. Now I believe the state has even put a cap on referendums for tax increases? I also want to point out bridges and roads get an insane amount of money too and no one questions the cost of having to redo every bridge along a highway to widen a highway, etc… But everyone is an accountant on mass transit. 
 

that leads to

2.) Everything being as cheap as possible at the detriment of ridership potential, convenience.

and also causes Charlotte to focus on justifying mass transit with:

3.) Development. Charlotte used to highlight development for the transit success and also constantly uses development opportunities to plan for transit as the peril of ridership potential. A couple hundred units in development vs. great mobility for a region of 3 million is typically what it comes down to.

which leads to 

4.) Charlotte using the wrong rail technology for certain objectives due to cost. Charlotte built the gold line with the expectations of having it operate like light rail and people have expectations of the silver line operate like a heavy rail metro system. 

And it really all comes back to - sorry to be political - NC republicans being against investments in mass transit. So we’re stuck with trying to use the wrong type of rail transit on suboptimal routings with the hopes a stick built apartment development wrapped around giant parking decks for a couple hundred units generates enough tax revenue to justify rail transit. So. Until the money flows… we’ll be hand-wringing over issues over type of rail and routes.

Light rail sharing streets in very dense areas is very common if not a primary feature of light rail lines. They really should be used for inner-city mobility rather than as a way to connect swaths of the metropolitan area 10 miles out. 
 

Edited November 12, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[Reverie39]

4 hours ago, JeanClt said:

It’s very effective due to how priority signaling works. It will change the lights well in advance of the trains arrival to where trade traffic thoroughfare would get the green light (the direction the train is going in). There would need to be planning for traffic light timing and such and when each point of traffic flow lines gets a turn when a train is passing and when it’s not. If you are familiar with how the blue line runs on North Tryon it would be something very similar to what happens there in terms of preemption (traffic lighting priority). It’s hard to tell how it works within the train but if you have driven through Tryon you can see how the train takes priority at intersections. Complete opposite of what Gold line is now and what it really should have been.

Awesome, if that's the case then I think at least as far as my limited transit knowledge goes, I'm a fan of the Gold Line interlining. 

 

1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Light rail sharing streets in very dense areas is very common if not a primary feature of light rail lines. They really should be used for inner-city mobility rather than as a way to connect swaths of the metropolitan area 10 miles out. 

I very much agree, and think that we should keep the light rail system limited to urban Charlotte and instead push for a commuter rail system to connect outlying areas.

That said, I saw the news that your DC is finally about to open that gigantic Silver Line expansion. I recently drove on the highway (is it Dulles Access Road) that the expansion basically follows across its entire length and was floored by how long it was. Ashburn is something like 26 miles from downtown DC as the crow flies, and that's just one side of the Silver Line. This has me wondering why the DC area didn't opt more for what I said should happen for Charlotte - sure the MARC and VRE exist as commuter rails in the area, but do you know what drove the decision to provide areas as far as Dulles and even beyond with a rapid transit metro line instead of a standard commuter rail to Union Station? Perhaps there is some relevance in that decision making to Charlotte, although of course we are talking about a city that is twice the size, and a heavy rail system as opposed to light rail.

[JRCLT]

I think the issue in Charlotte is:
1.) The state is not supportive of Rail Transit and makes it hard for local governments to even raise taxes for mass transit. (Mass transit had historic amounts approved this election on referendums for mass transit. San Franciscans approved $1.9 Billion in bonds, Massachusetts $1.3 Billion, $52.6 Million in Arlington, VA. At least for the DC region, I have no idea how many Billions are going towards mass transit but it’s a lot of billions. MD, VA, DC, local municipalities, referendums, infrastructure bill, private companies… it’s a ton of money.) It’s likely Charlotte would have similar support but without the backing of the state, other funding sources evaporate. Even the blue line was like a 25/25/50 (county/state/federal) funding. Now I believe the state has even put a cap on referendums for tax increases? I also want to point out bridges and roads get an insane amount of money too and no one questions the cost of having to redo every bridge along a highway to widen a highway, etc… But everyone is an accountant on mass transit. 
 
that leads to
2.) Everything being as cheap as possible at the detriment of ridership potential, convenience.
and also causes Charlotte to focus on justifying mass transit with:
3.) Development. Charlotte used to highlight development for the transit success and also constantly uses development opportunities to plan for transit as the peril of ridership potential. A couple hundred units in development vs. great mobility for a region of 3 million is typically what it comes down to.
which leads to 
4.) Charlotte using the wrong rail technology for certain objectives due to cost. Charlotte built the gold line with the expectations of having it operate like light rail and people have expectations of the silver line operate like a heavy rail metro system. 
And it really all comes back to - sorry to be political - NC republicans being against investments in mass transit. So we’re stuck with trying to use the wrong type of rail transit on suboptimal routings with the hopes a stick built apartment development wrapped around giant parking decks for a couple hundred units generates enough tax revenue to justify rail transit. So. Until the money flows… we’ll be hand-wringing over issues over type of rail and routes.
Light rail sharing streets in very dense areas is very common if not a primary feature of light rail lines. They really should be used for inner-city mobility rather than as a way to connect swaths of the metropolitan area 10 miles out. 
 

I agree with everything you said here. I’d like to add though despite the line stretching long distances, rail can be useful for those in the denser areas around the line. Like interstate highways are used to travel between states but also on shorter routes across the city. Short trips from one station to another or two or three stations down is also important. Some people do underestimate that feature. Same thing happens with the conceptual high speed rail across the country. It wouldn’t necessarily be used for NY to Miami for example but could be used from NY to DC or Boston, Charlotte to Raleigh, Charlotte to Atlanta, Seattle to Portland, LA to SF, Etc. Of course no one would pick a high speed rail from say Charlotte to Chicago or Dallas or Miami or Houston if it takes longer than flying and they have the option to pick that over the train. Longer lines doesn’t have mean longer trips or outskirts commuters only using the line.

This is the map concept im referring to:

[kermit]

1 hour ago, Reverie39 said:

This has me wondering why the DC area didn't opt more for what I said should happen for Charlotte - sure the MARC and VRE exist as commuter rails in the area, but do you know what drove the decision to provide areas as far as Dulles and even beyond with a rapid transit metro line instead of a standard commuter rail to Union Station?

Much of this is due to the history of Metro (as well as BART and MARTA). These systems were conceived in the late 1960s as hybrid rail systems which were focused more on connecting white flight suburbs (commuter rail) with downtown office spaces rather than urban circulation (like earlier heavy rail systems in NYC, Boston and Chicago). Stop spacing on these 60s era systems is much wider than what you find on older systems since the primary goal of the 60s era heavy rail systems was to get suburbanites into town quickly.

The 26 miles to Dulles is not much different than the 30ish miles from Market Street to Dublin on BART.  There was a legacy rail line that ran close to Dulles which could have been converted to commuter rail but that would have needed to run via Alrington to get to Union Station. The opportunity for true commuter rail vanished when the route was converted into a trai several decades ago. Tldr: a new build Metro line (which could connect to the existing Orange line to get to town) was the most cost effective option.  Having driven the Dulles access road recently I would also say that tons of residential development is certainly on its way to the Silver Line stations.

/marginally relevant transit history rant over/

Edited November 12, 2022 by kermit

[LKN704]

1 hour ago, Reverie39 said:

I saw the news that your DC is finally about to open that gigantic Silver Line expansion. I recently drove on the highway (is it Dulles Access Road) that the expansion basically follows across its entire length and was floored by how long it was. Ashburn is something like 26 miles from downtown DC as the crow flies, and that's just one side of the Silver Line. This has me wondering why the DC area didn't opt more for what I said should happen for Charlotte - sure the MARC and VRE exist as commuter rails in the area, but do you know what drove the decision to provide areas as far as Dulles and even beyond with a rapid transit metro line instead of a standard commuter rail to Union Station?

As the crow flies, I believe Ashburn is actually closer to West Virginia than it is to Downtown DC. 

The DC Metro has a lot of commonality in terms of its system structure with the BART in SF in that they are both essentially a combination of a urban rail system and a regional rail system (think S Bahn in Germany), designed to connect the suburbs with the central employment core, although the DC Metro is much closer to an urban rail system than BART is in that it plays a distinct transit purpose for intra-DC trips and provides better headways. BART's fares are much more in line with a commuter rail system, and BART is essentially worthless for intra-SF trips outside of those going to the Mission district. 

MARC and VRE operate over existing rail corridors taking advantage of existing infrastructure to bring the lines to Union Station (Long Bridge, CSX Metro subdivision, NEC, First Street Tunnel, etc.). The infrastructure was not there to connect say a line from Vienna to Union Station, so it made sense to tie everything together with an urban rail system. 

In the grand scheme of things, the 41 mile long Silver Line isn't *that* much longer when compared to other rapid transit lines. The A Train in NYC is 32 miles long, and the longest end-to-end ride on the Underground (Central Line) is 35 miles long.

[MarcoPolo]

Jumping in during a short breather between projects to add my 2 cents     

As you may remember back in Aug of last year (page 194 of this thread) I lamented the colossal failure in urban and transportation planning represented by the Silver Line's proposed alignment.   My intent was two fold, 1) broaden the discussion and introduce transportation planning principles to educate and help raise the level of discourse on this forum, and 2) covertly reach out to those with access to local decision makers and implore them to re-evaluate the designs.  As regards the first intention, I have enjoyed reading the many wonderful posts since, when my crazy schedule has allowed me to.   Many of you UP'ers are well versed in planning principles and techniques.   I have also been pleased to see my second intention bear fruit.   When I stated my astonishment at the original CAT's proposals for the Silver Line, I was not the only voice in the wilderness.  Many colleagues of mine were equally dismayed.  Unfortunately, few work in the Charlotte region.  I hoped my post here would raise a flare and grab the attention of more local actors who could begin a "behind-the-scenes" push for the better outcome.   It did.   A timely Tweet from CLTDevelopment helped draw even more attention to my flare  

Slowly, but surely, the discussions amongst the professionals have started to "re-align" (pardon the pun) with best practice, and the plans are now visibly beginning to follow suit.   Hopefully they fully straighten themselves out to achieve the optimum routing, the one along Trade St. (option 3).   Option 2, at, or below grade, (I know....odds are almost certain it will not be below grade) is by far the superior alignment for all the reasons I discussed in my post on page 194 over a year ago.   The concerns about car traffic mixing with the line are irrelevant.   Separating the two is not rocket science.   And, by the time the line is operational, it may be the case that Trade St need only accommodate the Gold Line Trolley, CATS buses, cycling ways, and pedestrians.  Car traffic may not need be part of the future equation at all, if we develop the CPCC to Johnson C Smith corridor correctly.   

I know, outwardly, the CATS process of outreach and presentation looks chaotic and at times half-baked, and it is.  If you were privy to how messy the inner workings of all this are, you would be more than happy to cut everyone some slack given the consequential turnaround in planning that has been orchestrated over the last 6 months.  Not to say we are out of the woods....but at least we now can see a few nearby clearings through the tangled underbrush.   If we could only alter the other portions of the alignment leading into and out of Uptown we'd really be in a happy place!  wink, wink  

One comment concerning the bus transfer station's design, as it is a relevant factor in the planning of the Sliver Line along Trade St.   If a bus transfer station is to be built in Charlotte's uptown (not going to get into a discussion here about whether such a facility is needed, or beneficial) the biggest urban design challenge is to limit the impact large numbers of buses, parked, maneuvering, queuing, and idling, have on surrounding civic spaces.  They are loud, even electric ones, large, and impact all the geometries of surrounding roadways and sidewalks.  While they are pedestrian enabling along routes and corridors, the stations needed to facilitate transfer and terminal functions are not.   The current and proposed location is at the heart of the State's largest and densest urban center.   Setting aside an entire surface block (as we have now) to make buses happy is a terrible waste of prime downtown property, and more importantly a major intrusion into the Civic Realm at the very heart of the City.   Burying the facility, or raising it above street level as part of a larger development is paramount for the future prosperity of this part of downtown.   While obviously not at the same scale, or purpose as say the Port Authority Bus Terminal in midtown Manhattan, our bus transfer station is contextually identical, and therefore should emulate a similar design approach.   If it were located in a less central location more options about the design would be viable. 

[15895]

2 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

Awesome, if that's the case then I think at least as far as my limited transit knowledge goes, I'm a fan of the Gold Line interlining. 

 

I very much agree, and think that we should keep the light rail system limited to urban Charlotte and instead push for a commuter rail system to connect outlying areas.

That said, I saw the news that your DC is finally about to open that gigantic Silver Line expansion. I recently drove on the highway (is it Dulles Access Road) that the expansion basically follows across its entire length and was floored by how long it was. Ashburn is something like 26 miles from downtown DC as the crow flies, and that's just one side of the Silver Line. This has me wondering why the DC area didn't opt more for what I said should happen for Charlotte - sure the MARC and VRE exist as commuter rails in the area, but do you know what drove the decision to provide areas as far as Dulles and even beyond with a rapid transit metro line instead of a standard commuter rail to Union Station? Perhaps there is some relevance in that decision making to Charlotte, although of course we are talking about a city that is twice the size, and a heavy rail system as opposed to light rail.

Correct to your last point. The size discrepancy of the areas makes the comparisons a little wonky. 

The center of the DC area is always going to prefer National Airport. But there is an entire beast and economic powerhouse called Northern Virginia more convenient to Dulles. Tyson’s Corner alone has around 7 Fortune 500 HQ’s not counting significant amounts of other businesses. 

To demonstrate the economic strength of the areas, below is the class A, B, and C office space Sq footage in millions of each area: 

Uptown: 24.87

SouthEnd: 8.49

Plaza/Midtown: 4.74

Southpark 5.52

———— 

Northern Virginia (specifically markets centered around metro. There’s other significant major markets but not necessarily TOD dominated) 
Rosslyn-Ballston: 24.97

National Landing: 13.4

Tyson’s: 28.66 (Silver convenient to Dulles) 

Herndon: 12.12 (Silver Ext) 

Reston: 20.25 (Silver Ext.)

King St Metro: 7.76 

Old Town: 5.54

Then you also have the conundrum of a commuter rail would parallel the orange line most of the time. So it really does make more sense to provide 5 minute frequencies to Rosslyn-Ballston corridor and 10 minutes for Tyson’s, Herndon, Reston & Dulles airport (as opposed to the parallel routing, difficult transfers between major centers) 

So it’s quite a different situation. You’ll definitely hear DC people complain and they could’ve done a 3rd rail for express service but too would’ve been complicated and super costly to triple track from DC or Rosslyn to Dulles and starting a third track at East Falls (where it goes above ground) May not have save much more time anyway by the time you get through Arlington. But again. NoVa is big enough and has its own needs. 

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD