Inner Loop - CBD, Downtown, East Bank, Germantown, Gulch, Rutledge

[markhollin]

Even more scaffolding on Raising Cane's at 212 Broadway:
 

[markhollin]

The Noel Block Garage on .4 acre at 300 Church St. (NW corner of intersection with 3rd Ave. North) has sold for $29.25 million to Rockbridge Capital, an Ohio-based hospitality firm with investments in 38 states worth over $10 billion. They secured a $23.1 million loan from WeBanco Inc. to help with the purchase. I seriously doubt they just want to keep the 5 story, 1929-era art deco garage featuring 300 parking spaces just as is.  My guess is they will raze it and build a 10-12 story luxury brand boutique hotel that will include a substantial underground garage in its place.  The previous owner, Pal PV, had purchased the site in 2015 for $9.25 million. The ground level retail slots feature Daddy’s Dog, Lonnie’s Western Room Karaoke Bar and MJ’s Chill Spot, among others.

More behind the Nashville Post paywall here:

https://www.nashvillepost.com/business/development/downtown-parking-garage-sells-for-29-25m/article_962f6576-2324-11ed-9aa0-b34938fa292a.html


And at NBJ here:

https://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/news/2022/08/24/downtown-parking-garage.html

[smeagolsfree]

I think it is an investment only!

[smeagolsfree]

FWIW, Rockbridge is an investment company only and does not do development as far as I know.

[East Side Urbanite]

42 minutes ago, markhollin said:

The Noel Block Garage at 300 Church St. (NW corner of intersection with 3rd Ave. North) has sold for $29.5 million to Rockbridge Capital, an Ohio-based hospitality firm with investments in 38 states worth over $10 billion. I seriously doubt they just want to keep the 5 story, 1929-era art deco garage featuring 300 parking spaces just as is.  My guess is they will raze it and build a 10-12 story luxury brand boutique hotel that will include a substantial underground garage in its place.  The previous owner, Pal PV, had purchased the site in 2015 for $9.25 million. The ground level retail slots feature Daddy’s Dog, Lonnie’s Western Room Karaoke Bar and MJ’s Chill Spot, among others.

More behind the Nashville Post paywall here:

https://www.nashvillepost.com/business/development/downtown-parking-garage-sells-for-29-25m/article_962f6576-2324-11ed-9aa0-b34938fa292a.html
 

The site might be better suited for the type building you describe, Mark. But would you want that?

 

We don't need to keep losing our small masonry buildings (particularly if they are art deco). This building provides a very cool feel in Printers Alley. It's quirky, gritty, distinctive, etc.

 

It will be a tragedy if it's razed. Let's just keep demolishing all the old brick and stone buildings located in that node of downtown (sarcasm intended) until we have ... Charlotte.

 

 

 

[markhollin]

11 minutes ago, East Side Urbanite said:

The site might be better suited for the type building you describe, Mark. But would you want that?

 

We don't need to keep losing our small masonry buildings (particularly if they are art deco). This building provides a very cool feel in Printers Alley. It's quirky, gritty, distinctive, etc.

 

It will be a tragedy if it's razed. Let's just keep demolishing all the old brick and stone buildings located in that node of downtown (sarcasm intended) until we have ... Charlotte.

Looking at their website, they seem to be involved with high-class projects. My guess is their design will be similar to what will happen 1/4 block to the north with the Printer Bank development--primarily brick and fitting with the tenor of the neighborhood and will fit nicely with its Noel Hotel and Residence Inn by Marriott compatriots to the west. 

[MLBrumby]

I wonder if that garage would be a candidate for conversion to hotel (I guess that depends on whether the whole floors are slanted or there are just ramps between floors, plumbing capabilities, etc.).  Seems to me that the prices is too steep if they intended to keep it a garage. 

I wish they were buying the parking lot a block away at 2nd & Church where they'd plan to build a modern Italianate replica of the Maxwell House hotel with u/g parking and 6-7 floors of verandas overlooking the river. Do any of the detectives here know if that site has been up for sale in recent years (or if it's likely to be)?  

Edited August 24, 2022 by MLBrumby

[smeagolsfree]

If the building is sound, then they will be in a fight with historic on this one. A building need not come down if it is just old. This is an example of an art deco mixed use garage. This is one I will fight you on Mark. Every time a building sells in the old historic part of Nashville the first thing everyone o=wants to do is tear it down and build something new. Now if it can't be saved or is dangerous that is one thing but tearing it down for the sake of tearing it down is criminal. 

You can't say this is a non-contributing structure either. I think Nashville Historic Commission would be all over this and I do not think Rockbridge is into spending 30 million on a structure to turn around and take it down being an investment company. They want to continue to have a good name in Nashville and this would ruin a reputation for them.

Even a conversion to a hotel would have to be done in the strictest of manors with accordance to Nashville Historic Commission Rules. With the layout of the building, I am not sure it would be a good candidate as you want windows for all of your rooms and there would be a lot of interior space with no outside window access. You would only have windows around 3/4 of the building at best as well.

Don't let your wants and desires get in the way of common sense.

[East Side Urbanite]

I'm with Smeags on this:

1. I don't think a conversion will work (but that's interesting concept from Brumby)

2. I want the structure to stay (but be rehabbed and stabilzed).

IF the building is razed and the site reinvented, I would love to see a neo-art deco structure with, say, charcoal brick and silver metal elements.

 

 

[Luvemtall]

2 hours ago, MLBrumby said:

 

I wish they were buying the parking lot a block away at 2nd & Church where they'd plan to build a modern Italianate replica of the Maxwell House hotel with u/g parking and 6-7 floors of verandas overlooking the river. Do any of the detectives here know if that site has been up for sale in recent years (or if it's likely to be)?  

That parking lot is screaming to become something more!!! It’s such a shame to waste that space on a surface lot, when it could be 4-5 levels of underground parking and a beautiful building above.

[markhollin]

4 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

If the building is sound, then they will be in a fight with historic on this one. A building need not come down if it is just old. This is an example of an art deco mixed use garage. This is one I will fight you on Mark. Every time a building sells in the old historic part of Nashville the first thing everyone o=wants to do is tear it down and build something new. Now if it can't be saved or is dangerous that is one thing but tearing it down for the sake of tearing it down is criminal. 

Alright...let's debate.  

First of all, you are being hyperbolic when you say "Every time a building sells in the old historic part of Nashville the first thing everyone wants to do is tear it down and build something new."  You know that is not true of me (for God's sake--I have created and maintain a thread here on repurposing and renovating historic structures and I love a good fix-up of an aging, significant structure as much as anyone), nor is is true of the majority of folks who participate in this forum.

Secondly, no one is suggesting "tearing it down for the sake of tearing it down."  Once again, that's hyperbolic, and dare I say it, reminiscent of the type of talk that you often berate from The Nashville Hysterical Society.   ; )  And as to what any developer wanting to build on a piece of land they own as being "criminal" is also an over reach.

Thirdly, let's look at other parking garages in the CBD:

1) Commerce and 4th  is 8 stories tall and was built 50 years ago.  It also has ground level retail. Is that historical? Would you protest if a developer bought that and wanted to build on that prime site?  And how about its sister garage that it joins at 144 5th Ave. North?  It was built in 1930 and has some ground level retail.  Would you fight for that one?

2) 201 Union is 67 years old, but I don't think you would fight to have that one saved.

3) 224 3rd Ave. North is 80 years old and is coming down for the Printer Bank development.  Why not fight for that one? 

4) How about the garages that stood at the NW corner of Commerce and 7th (where the Federal Courthouse is now) or the one that was at 801 Church (where Prime is being built now).  I didn't hear any defense of those.  Why? They were both 8 decades old when they were razed.

In all these cases, they were/are "gritty," add a certain "character," and certainly were/are functional.  Is it simply that if they are covered in brick that they are that much more worthy?

I contend that if Rockbridge came up with a brick & stone design for the 300 Church Street site that kept the function of a minimum of 300 parking spaces within or below a new structure that included a high-end boutique hotel featuring ground level retail that fit within the height codes for the neighborhood that would be a much better usage of that space.  And I'm guessing that they didn't just spend $30 million to maintain it as a parking garage. 

Now,  if they could come up with a structural plan to build on TOP of the garage, that would certainly be terrific. But I have my doubts as to whether the existing infrastructure could be adapted for that.  

[Argo]

Lonnie's, Ms Kellie's, MJ's, Daddy's Dogs should be left alone, thank you.

 

[bnacincy]

I would not be in favor of razing this parking garage unless the developer built something that kept the character of the structure and allowing for club space fronting Printers Alley just as the hotel on 4th Avenue has done.

If that happened, then I would like to see the two parking lots that sandwich 3rd Ave at the intersection of Church be built into multi level parking garages that resembled the Noel block-that way you would make up for the loss of the Noel Block and the parking garage that is coming down for the residential structure on 3rd that would also have club space fronting Printer's Alley.

[Luvemtall]

Bnacincy, why do you think that anything built in above mentioned blocks , need to have “clubs” . Just curious as to the reasoning, not everything needs to be a nightclub or honky tonk. It would be nice to see some good old fashioned locally owned businesses that featured such things as to benefit the people that live and work downtown. Not just the tourist and party crowd. Of course food is always a great deal, so restaurants are in, but also hair salons, barbershops, hardware, shoes, etc. downtown has over 15,000 people that call it home, and with all the new apartments and condos u/c and planned it’s expected to be over 30,000 in a few years. They need goods close by, not having to drive somewhere to a mall or plaza in the outlining communities. 

[bnacincy]

31 minutes ago, Luvemtall said:

Bnacincy, why do you think that anything built in above mentioned blocks , need to have “clubs” . Just curious as to the reasoning, not everything needs to be a nightclub or honky tonk. It would be nice to see some good old fashioned locally owned businesses that featured such things as to benefit the people that live and work downtown. Not just the tourist and party crowd. Of course food is always a great deal, so restaurants are in, but also hair salons, barbershops, hardware, shoes, etc. downtown has over 15,000 people that call it home, and with all the new apartments and condos u/c and planned it’s expected to be over 30,000 in a few years. They need goods close by, not having to drive somewhere to a mall or plaza in the outlining communities. 

For the simple fact that Nashville needs an alternative entertainment district not so much for the tourists but forthe people moving here who are not otherwise fans of country music. All the folks that will be living and working in the Gulch and Nashville yards will probably be a lot of tech workers for whom Lower Broadway will get old pretty quick-so what is needed are more jazz clubs/cabarets, music theaters,supperclubs, etc.... whatever you want to call them I think would be a necessary addition to Nashville's entertainment scene.

As far as shops and stores that downtown people  need for necessities the best options would be for adding more retail are Capitol View and Division Street as it passes through the Gulch going towards Rutledge Hill.  And this brings up something that you alluded to which has been bothering me for a while. I've long thought that putting residential development in the CBD particularly on Church Street was a mistake. The Gulch would have been a much better place to build as the Gulch has enough space where you can house a critical mass of people along with all the amenities you mentioned-shops, stores, restaurants-the kinds of things you want to see in an urban neighborhood-whereas there's is not enough space in the CBD to do that. 

Let the CBD be for work and entertainment and let the Gulch,Capitol View and Division Street be for residential and all the amenities that are needed for urban living.

Edited August 24, 2022 by bnacincy

[Nashvillain]

^ It's Printer's Alley. Clubs are kind of its thing nowadays, seeing as how there's not much printing going on there anymore. Of course, downtown, and all urban neighborhoods need a variety of businesses and services that meet the needs of residents and visitors, but downtown is pretty compact and going a couple blocks to seek out a pharmacy, barbershop, etc., isn't too much to ask. 

I know I'm about to get super annoying for most of ya'll, but when we're advocating for preserving parking garages downtown, maybe we've lost the plot. I agree that the street level experience of this garage isn't bad, minus the curb cuts for car ingress/egress on all three sides, but there is definitely a much better use for this space than storage for cars. But what am I talking about, whatever happens with this lot will definitely include plenty of parking

[East Side Urbanite]

6 minutes ago, Nashvillain said:

^ It's Printer's Alley. Clubs are kind of its thing nowadays, seeing as how there's not much printing going on there anymore. Of course, downtown, and all urban neighborhoods need a variety of businesses and services that meet the needs of residents and visitors, but downtown is pretty compact and going a couple blocks to seek out a pharmacy, barbershop, etc., isn't too much to ask. 

I know I'm about to get super annoying for most of ya'll, but when we're advocating for preserving parking garages downtown, maybe we've lost the plot. I agree that the street level experience of this garage isn't bad, minus the curb cuts for car ingress/egress on all three sides, but there is definitely a much better use for this space than storage for cars. But what am I talking about, whatever happens with this lot will definitely include plenty of parking

It is not a parking garage only, NVillian, as it also offers retail. So, and I might be wrong, it is the city's only art deco structure with both parking and retail. Once it's gone, that's it. No more such buildings for our city. And, on top of that, the vibe the structure creates at Printers Alley, with the tiny Daddy's Dog shop ... quirky and big city. I seriously doubt that form and function would be replicated with a new structure. Any future building will likely have a certain sterility to it.

 

 

[Nashvillain]

7 minutes ago, East Side Urbanite said:

It is not a parking garage only, NVillian, as it also offers retail. So, and I might be wrong, it is the city's only art deco structure with both parking and retail. Once it's gone, that's it. No more such buildings for our city. And, on top of that, the vibe the structure creates at Printers Alley, with the tiny Daddy's Dog shop ... quirky and big city. I seriously doubt that form and function would be replicated with a new structure. Any future building will likely have a certain sterility to it.

 

 

It does have a lot of retail, which is why I mentioned that the street-level experience isn't bad, minus the cars. If something replaces the building, it's not likely to include as much retail or offer rents low enough that the current tenants are likely able to afford to stay.

It would be great if the structure could be retrofitted and maybe not even a hotel. Perhaps an entertainment complex. I've long dreamed of opening up a Norebang downtown. I think that concept (private karaoke rooms for those who don't know the term) might really fly in Nashville. Or... maybe some office space? Who knows? 

[East Side Urbanite]

27 minutes ago, Nashvillain said:

It does have a lot of retail, which is why I mentioned that the street-level experience isn't bad, minus the cars. If something replaces the building, it's not likely to include as much retail or offer rents low enough that the current tenants are likely able to afford to stay.

It would be great if the structure could be retrofitted and maybe not even a hotel. Perhaps an entertainment complex. I've long dreamed of opening up a Norebang downtown. I think that concept (private karaoke rooms for those who don't know the term) might really fly in Nashville. Or... maybe some office space? Who knows? 

Some good ideas, NVillian. I simply would prefer the building be kept and rehabbed.

3 hours ago, markhollin said:

Alright...let's debate.  

First of all, you are being hyperbolic when you say "Every time a building sells in the old historic part of Nashville the first thing everyone wants to do is tear it down and build something new."  You know that is not true of me (for God's sake--I have created and maintain a thread here on repurposing and renovating historic structures and I love a good fix-up of an aging, significant structure as much as anyone), nor is is true of the majority of folks who participate in this forum.

Secondly, no one is suggesting "tearing it down for the sake of tearing it down."  Once again, that's hyperbolic, and dare I say it, reminiscent of the type of talk that you often berate from The Nashville Hysterical Society.   ; )  And as to what any developer wanting to build on a piece of land they own as being "criminal" is also an over reach.

Thirdly, let's look at other parking garages in the CBD:

1) Commerce and 4th  is 8 stories tall and was built 50 years ago.  It also has ground level retail. Is that historical? Would you protest if a developer bought that and wanted to build on that prime site?  And how about its sister garage that it joins at 144 5th Ave. North?  It was built in 1930 and has some ground level retail.  Would you fight for that one?

2) 201 Union is 67 years old, but I don't think you would fight to have that one saved.

3) 224 3rd Ave. North is 80 years old and is coming down for the Printer Bank development.  Why not fight for that one? 

4) How about the garages that stood at the NW corner of Commerce and 7th (where the Federal Courthouse is now) or the one that was at 801 Church (where Prime is being built now).  I didn't hear any defense of those.  Why? They were both 8 decades old when they were razed.

In all these cases, they were/are "gritty," add a certain "character," and certainly were/are functional.  Is it simply that if they are covered in brick that they are that much more worthy?

I contend that if Rockbridge came up with a brick & stone design for the 300 Church Street site that kept the function of a minimum of 300 parking spaces within or below a new structure that included a high-end boutique hotel featuring ground level retail that fit within the height codes for the neighborhood that would be a much better usage of that space.  And I'm guessing that they didn't just spend $30 million to maintain it as a parking garage. 

Now,  if they could come up with a structural plan to build on TOP of the garage, that would certainly be terrific. But I have my doubts as to whether the existing infrastructure could be adapted for that.  

Mark, with all due respect: These are not comparable examples. Will provide details later.

[Luvemtall]

Seems to be some really good talking points , on both sides of this coin. I agree with Mark on a lot of his points, but I fully agree and understand what the opposite side is offering. But , and this is just my opinion on this. If anyone comes in and buys a property (and in this case, spends 29 million) and they decide to raze the current building and build whatever the zoning permits and the powers that be approved. Then that’s their business, regardless of what we might all think. It’s not our call, we don’t have a say. And if anyone here on this forum, was involved in a same kind of situation as a developer, or investor etc. you would want to exercise your right to do what best serves your intentions. So at this point, let’s wait and see what plans might come forth, maybe nothing… maybe something super nice and awesome that will completely change the way we look at this. 

[East Side Urbanite]

2 hours ago, markhollin said:

Alright...let's debate.  

First of all, you are being hyperbolic when you say "Every time a building sells in the old historic part of Nashville the first thing everyone wants to do is tear it down and build something new."  You know that is not true of me (for God's sake--I have created and maintain a thread here on repurposing and renovating historic structures and I love a good fix-up of an aging, significant structure as much as anyone), nor is is true of the majority of folks who participate in this forum.

Secondly, no one is suggesting "tearing it down for the sake of tearing it down."  Once again, that's hyperbolic, and dare I say it, reminiscent of the type of talk that you often berate from The Nashville Hysterical Society.   ; )  And as to what any developer wanting to build on a piece of land they own as being "criminal" is also an over reach.

Thirdly, let's look at other parking garages in the CBD:

1) Commerce and 4th  is 8 stories tall and was built 50 years ago.  It also has ground level retail. Is that historical? Would you protest if a developer bought that and wanted to build on that prime site?  And how about its sister garage that it joins at 144 5th Ave. North?  It was built in 1930 and has some ground level retail.  Would you fight for that one?

2) 201 Union is 67 years old, but I don't think you would fight to have that one saved.

3) 224 3rd Ave. North is 80 years old and is coming down for the Printer Bank development.  Why not fight for that one? 

4) How about the garages that stood at the NW corner of Commerce and 7th (where the Federal Courthouse is now) or the one that was at 801 Church (where Prime is being built now).  I didn't hear any defense of those.  Why? They were both 8 decades old when they were razed.

In all these cases, they were/are "gritty," add a certain "character," and certainly were/are functional.  Is it simply that if they are covered in brick that they are that much more worthy?

I contend that if Rockbridge came up with a brick & stone design for the 300 Church Street site that kept the function of a minimum of 300 parking spaces within or below a new structure that included a high-end boutique hotel featuring ground level retail that fit within the height codes for the neighborhood that would be a much better usage of that space.  And I'm guessing that they didn't just spend $30 million to maintain it as a parking garage. 

Now,  if they could come up with a structural plan to build on TOP of the garage, that would certainly be terrific. But I have my doubts as to whether the existing infrastructure could be adapted for that.  

 

 

In a perfect world, not one single pre-World War II-built structure located within that specific node of downtown would be razed Mark.

You make some fine points.

 

[titanhog]

IMO, as long as it stays a nice brick structure up to at least the height it is now…I’m ok with whatever they build there.  Looking at the garage…it’s not like it’s a masterpiece of Art Deco.  It’s nice…but I could see them building something more updated (like an apartment tower with retail)…with the first 5 stories being an exact replica of the current facade.  Even maybe use the same bricks or similar.  

Then…above 5 floors can be a glass box.

[nashville born]

I'm always a little sad when I see us up in arms, yet I do so appreciate the civility and respect with which the arguments are made.  Please try to remember there is no right or wrong, regardless of the perspective you hold. 

I'm a corporate trainer by profession.  Invariably, I will lead a session, and someone will comment on a reaction sheet that the room was too hot.  Someone else on another sheet, from the same session, will say the room was too cold.  IMO, the development game is very similar in that dynamic.  Beauty remains in the eye of the beholder.

I hope whatever happens, everyone will find some semblance of a positive outcome/result.

[Luvemtall]

Titanhog I like your take on this. I’m thinking something like the Graduate Hotel. Your idea of replicating the current 5 stories of garage, and building above to the zoning height is a good idea. 

[Baronakim]

9 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

If the building is sound, then they will be in a fight with historic on this one. A building need not come down if it is just old. This is an example of an art deco mixed use garage. This is one I will fight you on Mark. Every time a building sells in the old historic part of Nashville the first thing everyone o=wants to do is tear it down and build something new. Now if it can't be saved or is dangerous that is one thing but tearing it down for the sake of tearing it down is criminal. 

You can't say this is a non-contributing structure either. I think Nashville Historic Commission would be all over this and I do not think Rockbridge is into spending 30 million on a structure to turn around and take it down being an investment company. They want to continue to have a good name in Nashville and this would ruin a reputation for them.

Even a conversion to a hotel would have to be done in the strictest of manors with accordance to Nashville Historic Commission Rules. With the layout of the building, I am not sure it would be a good candidate as you want windows for all of your rooms and there would be a lot of interior space with no outside window access. You would only have windows around 3/4 of the building at best as well.

Don't let your wants and desires get in the way of common sense.

Oh well.  here is the two cent opinion of an old architect, guys.  From what I can tell, I must assume the  parking lot floors are not ramped. but have some internal ramping without parking on them.  These ramps would be rather steep which would be consistant with parking structures from that era.  I would think that the original garage had attendant serviced parking.  For instance the Cain-Sloan Department Store built in 1964 was still attendant parking.  From the existing  window layouts, I see no reason to doubt this.  The windows are reasonably large and should  offer no problems for providing room windows for a quality boutique hotel.  They wrap on three sides offering windows onto Printer's Alley and 3rd Avenue.  I see NO reason for much necessity to modify the existing building very much beyond a good cleaning and signage.  It looks perfectly sound and in fair repair to me.  I think the street sloping towards the river would allow a very workable floor to floor height for a very nice hotel lobby function and I would assume  some parking retention to be accessed  as existing off Printer's Alley for the hotel.  Surely the hotel can function with many fewer parking spaces than currently exist.  Basically the parking on the upper levels can be converted to rooms.    If the existing parking access on Church can serve as an automotive guest arrival access, any additional parking can be valet served off site if necessary. I think a competent design firm could very easily come up with a resonable layout retaining all of the exterior masonry.  Look at what ESa did with the Dream Hotel project on 4th Avenue.  The  glazing of the steel windows would surely have to be addressed with something  historically compatible, but I don't think that is a big issue.  I am going to assume that the half story window discontinuty on the 3rd Avenue fascade  houses an exit stair and probably there is only one stair, so another would have to be designed exiting onto Printer's Alley.  As to the lack of windows on one side, I don't think that is a big issue either as the center side would be very practically needed for an elevator core, room services and HVAC core.  I would assume that two rooms flanking could utilize some of the windowless space for luxury spa/bar or some such function too.  I am quite confident that I could design a layout that would work as a quality boutique hotel   I could easily see the existing roof having a great bar being built set back from the original fascade.    Of course there would have to be substantial study and probably some creative solutions to make it all come together, but from my POV, problems would not be insurmountable.    I agree with Smeag that Nashville Historic Commission would be all over this and I see that good  design can satisfy the main historic nature of the building without resorting to demolition. As to Lonnie's, Ms Kellie's, MJ's, Daddy's Dogs... I think they must go as their Church Street storefronts are awful.  The building is going to have to be gutted and I do not see these businesses returning as the rent of the redesigned spaces would be too high.  I guess the argument is similar to those folks who would have Rotiers move into the new tower on West End.  Not gonna happen.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Baronakim
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