Parks and Rec

[eandslee]

22 minutes ago, I miss RVA said:

The city is ponying up $15 million to purchase Mayo Island from the Shaia family.  While I do agree this is a really cool acquisition for the city that will be a tremendous asset to the JRPS - I'm a little torched that the city is willing to spend money here while scaling back plans (via cutting out the purchase of the VCU Sports Backers statdium site) in what has been to this point the highly-touted, allegedly "transformative" Diamond District redevelopment.

Priorities a tad out of whack maybe? 

From today's Richmond BizSense:

https://richmondbizsense.com/2024/01/08/mayo-island-sold-to-city-in-15m-deal/

You’re probably right - priorities are out of whack. SMH 

[eandslee]

Didn’t exactly know where to post this but I snapped some screenshots of some renderings of the pickleball and pádel center in the canal walk:

 

 

Edited January 31 by eandslee

[Shakman]

I don't know.  So much potential for something better here unfortunately market conditions dictate otherwise.

[123fakestreet]

2 hours ago, Shakman said:

I don't know.  So much potential for something better here unfortunately market conditions dictate otherwise.

Agree. Buildings needs a lot of work though. I'm just glad someone is putting something in there after being vacant for so long. My hope is that even if it fails, much of the basic level renovations have been done so it's much easier for someone else to come along and put something different in at that time.

[I miss RVA]

Just now, 123fakestreet said:

Agree. Buildings needs a lot of work though. I'm just glad someone is putting something in there after being vacant for so long. My hope is that even if it fails, much of the basic level renovations have been done so it's much easier for someone else to come along and put something different in at that time.

 %  agreed.

[Brent114]

I don’t think this will fail. 
There  are thousands of active 20 and 30 something’s in a mile radius of this places.  There is very little in the way of recreational infrastructure (aside from river activities ) in the same area (where is the closest place to play any racket sports?  Battery Park, Randolph?). 
 

There is pent up demand. It will work and be sustainable with just  the nearby residents (so won’t get into “but where will we park” nonsense). 

[Flood Zone]

17 hours ago, 123fakestreet said:

I'm just glad someone is putting something in there after being vacant for so long.

Strong disagree, but only for selfish reasons. I've walked through that area countless days during lunch time for the past however many years. So have many other people. And I've seen it used for such creative purposes, like senior HS photos or engagement portraits.

17 hours ago, Brent114 said:

I don’t think this will fail. 

That said, I agree with this. 

[Rooster]

I think its a nice addition to the ecosystem down there - another reason for people to head that way, an active lifestyle draw. Ive always tried to support the restaraunts down there and love accessing the pipeline down there behind the flood wall - but its always been very underutilized. Maybe some of the folks going down for pickleball will have lunch at Casa del Barco after...

[ancientcarpenter]

2 hours ago, Rooster said:

I think its a nice addition to the ecosystem down there - another reason for people to head that way, an active lifestyle draw. Ive always tried to support the restaraunts down there and love accessing the pipeline down there behind the flood wall - but its always been very underutilized. Maybe some of the folks going down for pickleball will have lunch at Casa del Barco after...

Agreed. Everyone in RVA should be ecstatic about this. It's a sign that downtown is moving away from just building offices. Investors looked at the downtown demographics and said "even with the little amount of people that live in the city area, we feel that we can have a profitable place for them to utilize that isn't just another bar/restaurant or apartment building." 

 

This is great news. This could be the small symbolic pivot of businesses looking at downtown. The more people live downtown the more we get rec investments like this. This is a good thing and we should be cheering it on. 

[I miss RVA]

If memory serves, the restored canal was to be Richmond's version of San Antonio's Riverwalk. Now - I don't know how much has changed over the past 23 years I've been away, but I recall well despite how beautiful it was, it was essentially empty. Unless there were events on Browns Island, there was almost no activity other than some folks walking, riding bikes, etc. The premise of the canal being lined with condos, apartments, bars, restaurants, shops - it hadn't come to pass when I left more than two decades ago. Now - the renderings I've seen of what Tom Papa has proposed with Locks 7 & 8 certainly looks promising - and building apartments directly on the canal as Papa is proposing will go a LONG way toward changing that. I hope and pray that with CoStar's outstanding campus anchoring the western end of the canal and - hopefully - eventually more apartments coming via the Locks building - plus what's been developed to this point will REALLY change the level of sidewalk-level activity there. The potential has always been ENORMOUS - and it's been sad to see it taking SO long to really kick into gear.

[Flood Zone]

25 minutes ago, I miss RVA said:

Now - I don't know how much has changed over the past 23 years I've been away, but I recall well despite how beautiful it was, it was essentially empty. Unless there were events on Browns Island, there was almost no activity other than some folks walking, riding bikes, etc. The premise of the canal being lined with condos, apartments, bars, restaurants, shops - it hadn't come to pass when I left more than two decades ago

Let's say it's somewhere in between "nothing" and "everything they dreamed of."

That said, the traffic it gets from people walking, riding bikes, etc. more than justifies it. The canal walk, extended to Brown's Island, has been a great source of recreation for downtown employees.

[eandslee]

54 minutes ago, Flood Zone said:

Let's say it's somewhere in between "nothing" and "everything they dreamed of."

That said, the traffic it gets from people walking, riding bikes, etc. more than justifies it. The canal walk, extended to Brown's Island, has been a great source of recreation for downtown employees.

Interesting that you say that a people use the canal walk - I don’t discredit your account, but every time I’ve been to the canal walk, and in pictures (except during major events), the place seems dead - not a soul.  Perhaps I’m going there during off-peak times, but I’m glad it get used more than it seems to get used in my mind.

I want to see a scene just once where there are lots of people enjoying the canal walk, like they show in architectural renderings!

[123fakestreet]

1 hour ago, I miss RVA said:

If memory serves, the restored canal was to be Richmond's version of San Antonio's Riverwalk. Now - I don't know how much has changed over the past 23 years I've been away, but I recall well despite how beautiful it was, it was essentially empty. Unless there were events on Browns Island, there was almost no activity other than some folks walking, riding bikes, etc. The premise of the canal being lined with condos, apartments, bars, restaurants, shops - it hadn't come to pass when I left more than two decades ago. Now - the renderings I've seen of what Tom Papa has proposed with Locks 7 & 8 certainly looks promising - and building apartments directly on the canal as Papa is proposing will go a LONG way toward changing that. I hope and pray that with CoStar's outstanding campus anchoring the western end of the canal and - hopefully - eventually more apartments coming via the Locks building - plus what's been developed to this point will REALLY change the level of sidewalk-level activity there. The potential has always been ENORMOUS - and it's been sad to see it taking SO long to really kick into gear.

It was never going to be San Antonio's riverwalk, there just isn't enough foot traffic, retail and restaurants in the entire city center area where even if you moved them all to the canal walk it would match San Antonio. 

It would be nice if there was a bit more there, but I'd certainly say it gets enough use just from people walking on it that it's justified and not a failure. This pickleball court will help, as will CoStar. If the Reynolds building ever gets done (wasn't that announced over 5 years ago at this point?) that will be very big, as right now there's a bit of a gap in the walk there. The security perimeter for the Fed hurts it a bit on access to the northside right there, and the lack of anything along Dock st is another detriment - interstate flyovers and parking lots is it.

The only restaurant really on the walk is Casa Del Barco, Southern Railway Taphouse is near it but not right on it. Would also help if Lady Byrd Hat building has a restaurant in it, maybe some others. As it is now it's all offices and apartments so it's mostly just office workers taking a walk at lunch or people living there taking a morning jog.

 

Edited February 1 by 123fakestreet

[Flood Zone]

32 minutes ago, eandslee said:

Interesting that you say that a people use the canal walk - I don’t discredit your account, but every time I’ve been to the canal walk, and in pictures (except during major events), the place seems dead - not a soul.

Every experience is different, I guess. I'm a pretty veteran lunch-time walker down there. Aside from the winter or days when there's rain in the forecast, there's always a good mix of people walking or jogging. 

(To be fair, the Potterfield Bridge has directed A TON of foot traffic its way. But the canal walk still gets a good amount of people, at least in my experience.)

[I miss RVA]

6 hours ago, 123fakestreet said:

It was never going to be San Antonio's riverwalk,

there just isn't enough foot traffic,

retail and restaurants in the entire city center area where even if you moved them all to the canal walk it would match San Antonio. 

1.) You're correct that - in practice - there was just no way this was going to ever match San Antonio's Riverwalk. HOWEVER - I clearly recall that the city kept banging the drum  publicly about this being "inspired by San Antonio's Riverwalk" and that it could be RVA's "version" of Riverwalk. In concept, that's how it was envisioned and that's how it was pitched to the public. Sadly, it was clear as a bell from day one that it wouldn't come anywhere close to what's in San Antonio.

2.) Exactly my point. Not just not enough foot traffic. At least as of the last time I was there 23 years ago, there was damn near NO foot traffic. 

3.) This is true. I remember how the city kept saying that the canal would attract bars, restaurants, retail, etc. and bring crowds. Wellllllllllllllp - the city also pitched the concept that there would be hundreds upon hundreds of residents living along the canal - and even after the small smattering of residential conversions and the two new-construction projects rose along the riverfront, NOTHING even remotely like what was envisioned has yet to spring up. Locks 7 and 8 are about as close as it gets to what was envisioned - and that development has sat dormant for several years now. Add to it the fact that the something like 500-plus condominiums that were planned as part of the James Center in two towers south of Byrd Street also never materialized (along with two office towers - one of which was to be 40-plus stories tall - but I digress). 

There were lots of big plans for what this area could be - and the reality has not ever come close to matching the dream.

Edited February 2 by I miss RVA

[Shakman]

This type of development reminds me of "organic" rather than BOLD growth.  I can see something like this along the Carroll Creek in Downtown Frederick, MD but no in Richmond, VA.  Hopefully this fails just as the market conditions improve for something BOLD. 

Edited February 2 by Shakman

[I miss RVA]

1 hour ago, Shakman said:

This type of development reminds me of "organic" rather than BOLD growth.

This is -- and has been all along -- my contention about RVA growth, be it population growth, downtown development, the airport, etc. Organic and incremental vs BOLD. Like you - my preference is for BOLD growth. Save the incremental inchworm foolishness for small towns.

[Brent114]

To Imiss…the Canal Walk gets a whole lot of use in the early evening.   Saturday and Sundays too.     Richmond isn’t the kind of tourist town that will have occupied parks during typical business hours.   It doesn’t get busy until the people that live near it get  home from work or have the day off (weekends).
 

 

[I miss RVA]

22 hours ago, Brent114 said:

To Imiss…the Canal Walk gets a whole lot of use in the early evening.   Saturday and Sundays too.    

Richmond isn’t the kind of tourist town that will have occupied parks during typical business hours.   It doesn’t get busy until the people that live near it get  home from work or have the day off (weekends).

1.) You'd think, then, that this would be a catalyst for the kinds of businesses (restaurants, bars, etc.) that might have limited hours - evenings, weekends, not reliant on daytime touristy foot traffic) -- and if memory serves, this was one of the "selling points" (talking points?) pitched when the Canal Walk was proposed.

2.) All the more reason to really push for high-density residential development right along the Canal. And you're right - RVA is NOT the kind of tourist town that could support something like this during business hours. That's been one of my bones of contention for decades - you're NOT going to pull the kind of tourist traffic necessary for this kind of vibrancy just with "historic" architecture. You HAVE to have something of real substance, particularly downtown, to pull the level of tourist foot traffic to make something like this work. That simply doesn't exist in Richmond (not to say we don't have attractions -- we do -- just not enough or at the level to pull in the amount of traffic that would make this work.)  THAT SAID (and this is something you've heard me yammer on about many times) - we need people LIVING downtown. And for the Canal Walk to really work, we need folks living there - right on the canal. Locks 7 and 8 would really help (particularly if even a fraction of what's depicted in the renderings actually comes to pass in terms of people traffic). Thing is, we need SEVERAL projects like this there. I'm still smarting over the loss of the Locks at 321 - and not just because a gorgeous glass 23-story mixed-use tower was planned (and would look awesome on the skyline). Losing that one really hurt what could have been along the canal.

Man oh man... would could have been:

Edited February 4 by I miss RVA

[Brent114]

There really isn’t any space to add any bars and restaurants and IMO it isn’t necessary to do so.  The Slip and Bottom are long established places for that kind of activity and it wouldn’t be prudent to  cannibalize those places to prop up a new destination for tourists. 
It isn’t SA and was never going to be simply because of where the canal is located.  There just isn’t enough developable land along it. 

It’s a linear park used by locals to get to and from adjacent parks.  Pretty much every weekend between mid April and early November there  is an event on Browns Island.  Those events come with food and adult beverage sales.  
 

And yes, that bank rendering was nice…but completely obsolete just 5 years later.  The other bank mid and high rises across the metro (and commonwealth and the country) largely sit empty.  The building there now probably came with more housing /people anyway.  The renderings of CoStar show a cluster of restaurants, so there will be a few more options in a few years. 

 

 

[I miss RVA]

2 hours ago, Brent114 said:

There really isn’t any space to add any bars and restaurants and IMO it isn’t necessary to do so.  The Slip and Bottom are long established places for that kind of activity and it wouldn’t be prudent to  cannibalize those places to prop up a new destination for tourists. 
It isn’t SA and was never going to be simply because of where the canal is located.  There just isn’t enough developable land along it. 

It’s a linear park used by locals to get to and from adjacent parks.  Pretty much every weekend between mid April and early November there  is an event on Browns Island.  Those events come with food and adult beverage sales.  
 

And yes, that bank rendering was nice…but completely obsolete just 5 years later.  The other bank mid and high rises across the metro (and commonwealth and the country) largely sit empty.  The building there now probably came with more housing /people anyway.  The renderings of CoStar show a cluster of restaurants, so there will be a few more options in a few years. 

 

 

Some really good points, @Brent114. As always - a few thoughts:

1. & 2.) Can't argue those facts - all true. My point, however, is that this WAS the stated goal when this project was being marketed. This was the "selling point" that the city used when promoted building the Canal Walk. Based on what it was purported to be, what it actually became is what I find so disappointing and, unfortunately, so typical of these kinds of projects in this city (vs other cities) - overpromise, underdeliver. Not saying that the Canal Walk isn't nice - it is. But, as you correctly pointed out, it's not anywhere close to what it was "supposed" to be.

3a.) You're 100% spot on, @Brent114. Indeed, the pandemic (and WFH trends that had been burgeoning even before Covid happened) has certainly changed the dynamic - and you're probably right - a 23-story tower that's not a dedicated build (like CoStar's) likely would sit mostly empty. Now - you KNOW what my obvious comeback to this is: while I realize it's not exclusively a "Richmond problem" it sure as hell seems to have MUCH more of a significant impact here than it does in other cities. Big towers are still being constructed in Austin, the Carolinas, Nashville among many other cities. Yes all of them are LARGER. Yes (as @upzoningisgood has adeptly pointed out) there's more DEMAND in those cities. Which goes back to my basic soapbox arguments: 1.) I still want to know what we need to do to create the level of demand that will make downtown RVA a "must be there" kind of place that, say, downtown Austin or downtown Nashville unquestionably are. (@upzoningisgood - perhaps you could shed some light on this.) and 2.) WE ARE STILL TOO DAMN SMALL!!! (Shouting this from the mountaintops) I can't say this enough, because at the end of the day, all roads lead back to this baseline point. WE ARE TOO DAMN SMALL!!!

3b.) As for the current 11-story Rubik's cube that sits on the site of where the gorgeous Locks 321 tower was proposed: you're correct, @Brent114 -- the current building actually has 55 more units (237 vs 182) than would have been contained in the Locks 321 building. Interestingly, the Locks 321 tower would have had 175K sq feet of office and 5,000 sq feet of commercial/retail space. The rest - 350K - presumably would have been for residences. Fewer units - more space. Bigger units? IF, in fact, we're looking at an apples-to-apples metric (meaning, residential sq footage) the current cube building has 135K sq feet LESS space for more units than the original Locks tower had.

Dunno... even taking away the office space, my guess is that even a re-constituted Locks 321 building would have been larger - read - taller - than the current cube that sits on the site.

Relative to the Canal, it's hard to say in the post-pandemic paradigm how much of an impact this building might have had, given that there's a good chance much of that 175K of office space might be dead empty.

3c.) CoStar - absolutely. It'll be interesting to see the impact the CoStar campus anchoring the western portion of the canal will have. I'm very much looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

 

Edited February 4 by I miss RVA

[Brent114]

The CoStar sites should do very well, seeing as how they will be opening around the same time as the amphitheater.  It will be a great area for pre-gaming and dining before concerts. 

[eandslee]

$30M for a Brown’s Island overhaul.  Looks awesome!  Plan is to begin construction in 2026.  Here’s the plan (warning - large file):

https://venturerichmond.s3.amazonaws.com/Brown's+Island+Improvement+Plan_FULL.pdf

[123fakestreet]

11 hours ago, eandslee said:

$30M for a Brown’s Island overhaul.  Looks awesome!  Plan is to begin construction in 2026.  Here’s the plan (warning - large file):

https://venturerichmond.s3.amazonaws.com/Brown's+Island+Improvement+Plan_FULL.pdf

83 pages. Not sure I caught all of it, but mostly looks like targeting the riverfront area by Tredegar (not actually on Brown's Island) by making a bit nicer/more formal park area. Some concessions once you cross onto to Browns' Island from that area, then improving/formalizing the opposite end under the bridge (since concert stages will no longer be there). Beyond that just some more trees and spiffing up the area.

What am I missing?

[keo091]

Lewis Ginter Botanical Garden is getting an expansion!

https://richmondbizsense.com/2024/04/22/lewis-ginter-botanical-garden-growing-campus-with-31m-expansion/

 

Also, I don't know if this is posted anywhere but I'm a roller coaster enthusiast and construction is already well underway on Kings Dominion's new rumored B&M Wing Coaster scheduled to open in 2025 in the old Volcano plot of land! KDFans/BGWFans are known to be pretty reliable on their leaks in the coaster community before any official annoucements are made from Kings Dominion & Busch Gardens Williamsburg themselves.

https://kdfans.com/2023/new-plans-reveal-the-full-layout-of-kings-dominions-yet-to-be-announced-launched-wing-coaster/

 

He's a video of a mockup of what the ride could look like once it's open.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw_ZySyiHsU&ab_channel=MLDesigns

Edited Monday at 03:22 PM by keo091