The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[Dale]

Power lines exist in every city I've visited. Indeed, they were the worst in urban purists' wet dream, Toronto.

[BnaBreaker]

In Toronto it is mostly overhead electric wires for the electric buses and trams.

[farm_boy]

3 hours ago, Dale said:

Power lines exist in every city I've visited. Indeed, they were the worst in urban purists' wet dream, Toronto.

True, but their power lines are not 2 inches from BOTH sides of the street and they don't criss-cross over streets nearly as much as ones in Nashville. I was a bit surprised at the power lines in Toronto, but they are nothing compared to here

[MLBrumby]

Are the power lines in TO also from pinewood?  Or are they made from steel/aluminum or some other durable and more attractive material? 

[titanhog]

For you mechanical engineers:  Is there a way to send energy through the air without using cables or some other connecting device...similar to radio waves?  You'd have an electrical "box" in your home and a satellite would send energy waves to it?  Is that science-fiction stuff?

[Vrtigo]

1 hour ago, titanhog said:

For you mechanical engineers:  Is there a way to send energy through the air without using cables or some other connecting device...similar to radio waves?  You'd have an electrical "box" in your home and a satellite would send energy waves to it?  Is that science-fiction stuff?

Ever heard of this guy?

I think you'd enjoy reading about Nikola Tesla. He basically was trying to do exactly that which you propose, except nearly a century ago.

[Dale]

Granted it's been ten years since I've been to Toronto. But much of its central area had an ugly mass of overhead wires, streetcar cable and power lines. I thought it was the ugliest I'd ever seen. Plus, the streetlamps were typically circa 70's and often bent. I went away thinking that the street infrastructure was not Toronto's strong suit.

[rookzie]

8 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

If I were drunk in a taxi and from out of town and that thing went over my head, it would absolutely freak me out and scare the hell out of me. Even if I were stone cold sober, I would still be freaked. It would take some getting use to, as well as the idiot drivers needing to be in their lane.

Not to mention a never-ending trove (or roadway "trough", as it were) of motorists who become distracted by the approach of periodic gigantic bowling-pin sweepers marauding back and forth overhead, perhaps even worse by approaching from behind.

Motorists don't seem to become affected or distracted with the sight of median-bound rapid transit, as with Chicago's Kennedy-, Eisenhower-, or Dan Ryan Expressways, nor do they in the least seem fazed with BART along California East Bay's Hywy S.R. 4 and I-580, which are relatively new compared to the Chicago line extensions.

I also with no real "track" record with that thing, I could see it more susceptible to breakdowns, crosswinds, and wind shear, and I don't think I'd want to be in that damn thing during blinding rain and lightning.  And I could just see now some confounded driving-while-texting soul losing control, breaching the roadway, and either fouling one of the 2 straddle runways and worse colliding with a strut of one of those things, more often than not.

No, we don't need no new-fangled transport concept as such to start.  We need something that appeals to "progressives" and "conservatives" alike.

 

[timmay143]

7 hours ago, titanhog said:

For you mechanical engineers:  Is there a way to send energy through the air without using cables or some other connecting device...similar to radio waves?  You'd have an electrical "box" in your home and a satellite would send energy waves to it?  Is that science-fiction stuff?

One of the most underrated scientist IMO.  One of my favorites!

Edited May 26, 2016 by timmay143

[farm_boy]

13 hours ago, MLBrumby said:

Are the power lines in TO also from pinewood?  Or are they made from steel/aluminum or some other durable and more attractive material? 

A lot of them are pine. Outside the downtown core, almost all are pine

"All" cities have overhead power lines; but most cities recognized early on that putting power lines on the streets would not be attractive. These cities, instead, choose to place power lines in alleys, property lines, etc. away from the streets

[markhollin]

Nashville in early stages of "Smart Roads" infrastructure:

http://www.nashvillepost.com/business/nashville-post-magazine/article/20781142/streetwise-technology

[MLBrumby]

4 hours ago, farm_boy said:

A lot of them are pine. Outside the downtown core, almost all are pine

"All" cities have overhead power lines; but most cities recognized early on that putting power lines on the streets would not be attractive. These cities, instead, choose to place power lines in alleys, property lines, etc. away from the streets

Ah... interesting!  Would have thought that all the snow in TO would require something stronger, or more lines underground. Noticed that about the alleys in certain cities. LA has a lot of that. 

[SoundScan]

Another reason that any rail transit system Nashville may (in our dreams) implement should avoid at-grade operation/crossings:

http://gizmodo.com/stupid-cars-keep-ruining-las-newest-train-1778227464

Shutdown and delayed on the very first day of operation!

[rookzie]

23 hours ago, timmay143 said:

One of the most underrated scientist IMO.  One of my favorites!

I was able acquire a surplus test coil, some 47 years ago, used to test leaks in neon tubing.  Out lab instructor during the '60s used to have us play with these things, not just to make out hair raise, but also he would have us form a human "chain" and the person on one end quickly grab hold of the energized probe of the tester, and the person on the far end hold a fluorescent tube and make it light up.  Even at my rapidly ripening age (or overly so), I have fun with this thing, when the kiddies come around at Halloween.  Unfortunately, though, they still come back, after I let "sparks fly from my fingertips".

[FromParkAveToTN]

Any possibilityof Amtrak running through Nashville? 

[fieldmarshaldj]

2 hours ago, FromParkAveToTN said:

Any possibilityof Amtrak running through Nashville? 

About as likely as me fitting into a Size Zero dress.

[rookzie]

23 hours ago, FromParkAveToTN said:

Any possibilityof Amtrak running through Nashville? 

 

21 hours ago, fieldmarshaldj said:

About as likely as me fitting into a Size Zero dress.

Possibly, say around between 2022 and 2038 ─ about that predictable.  The reasoning behind this requires elaboration way too lengthy, if one is to consider all parameters.  Former U.S. Congressman Bob Clement, who lost to Karl Dean in the 2007 Nashville/Davidson Co. Mayoral election, arranged to bring a "demonstration" Amtrak passenger train for a special one-time ride from Louisville for a one-day display at Nashville's Union Station during 2002.

Although Louisville had a short stint of passenger service (known as Amtrak's "Kentucky Cardinal") from 1999 to 2003, from Chicago to Jeffersonville, IN (just across the Ohio River from Louisville), and eventually to Louisville Union Station, it had been proposed and advocated for extension to Nashville, for which the Congressman was highly credited.  Since the train depended largely on U.S. Postal mail contracts (for containerized parcels), that train was cancelled, when Amtrak lost its mail-handling agreement.  Now neither Louisville nor Nashville has any readily foreseeable future on the restoration of intercity rail.  When in 1978/79 the last revenue Amtrak service through Nashville (Chicago-Indianapolis-Louisville-Nashville-B'ham-Montgomery-Dothan-Jacksonville-Miami) had been on the block for discontinuance, at least one town meeting had been arranged in the city of Nashville itself.  At that time, before the days of the CSX merger, the L&N RR had openly agreed to "support" running the train, suffering among the then-worst in terms of ridership, on its existing circuitous route to Florida, via Montgomery, instead of a then-proposed rerouting via Chattanooga and Atlanta.  Even then in 1978 ,the Nashville-Chattanooga segment (now the Chatta. Sub-division of CSX's Nashville Div.) was operating at or near capacity, compared to today's railway congestion along that vital system freight route.  Even as some other cities as Columbus OH, Phoenix, and Las Vegas had passenger service for sometime since the 1971 Amtrak takeover and mandate of 5 years of retention of then-pre-existing passenger-trains for non-joining railroads, Nashville has been one of the largest, if not THE largest U.S. city to continuously not have had passenger service for as long as it has been ─ 37 years.

Short answer qualified, Nashville remains and will remain as one of the largest U.S cities without intercity passenger rail, for quite sometime.  At best, you might see a rendering of what it could have been.  It will take a consortial agreement among all host-route states, linking a major hub, such as Chicago, to, say Atlanta, and beyond, but that's highly unlikely to predictably occur, given the apathy among the states which would require participation. DC-Memphis, via Lynchburg[Va.]-Roanoke-Bristol, Knoxville, Chattanooga, Huntsville, Florence[Al.], and Collierville is highly possible and is in discussion, but Nashville to anywhere?  Not even pipe dreams. -==-

Edited May 31, 2016 by rookzie

[smeagolsfree]

15 hours ago, fieldmarshaldj said:

About as likely as me fitting into a Size Zero dress.

So there is a chance. Just go on that crash diet and there is hope. It's those high hills that get you. If we get AmTrak, we will give you the credit.

 

[markhollin]

Transportation Engineer: Nashville can't look at transit as the only solution to traffic woes...

http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/blog/2016/05/transportation-engineer-nashville-can-t-look-at.html?s=print

[smeagolsfree]

That was a good Q & A. Two key points jumped out at me.

One is the fact that there needs to be high speed rail from the burbs and two, is the fact there is enough commuter traffic to warrant two way commutes. That would be like from Nashville to Franklin.

 

I think there could be room for a commuter rail between Franklin and Murfreesboro as well. There seems to be a lot to f traffic on 840. Someone chime in here as that is an assumption on my part.

[titanhog]

3 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

That was a good Q & A. Two key points jumped out at me.

One is the fact that there needs to be high speed rail from the burbs and two, is the fact there is enough commuter traffic to warrant two way commutes. That would be like from Nashville to Franklin.

 

I think there could be room for a commuter rail between Franklin and Murfreesboro as well. There seems to be a lot to f traffic on 840. Someone chime in here as that is an assumption on my part.

Yes...I've driven 840 many times during drive time and it won't be long until there will start being delays and backups...specifically the Franklin to M'Boro lanes.

[rookzie]

2 hours ago, smeagolsfree said:

That was a good Q & A. Two key points jumped out at me.

One is the fact that there needs to be high speed rail from the burbs and two, is the fact there is enough commuter traffic to warrant two way commutes. That would be like from Nashville to Franklin.

 

I think there could be room for a commuter rail between Franklin and Murfreesboro as well. There seems to be a lot to f traffic on 840. Someone chime in here as that is an assumption on my part.

"chime"

While it's great to have early dialog about commuting among sizable satellite communities such as Lebanon, Murfreesboro, and Franklin, especially given that these towns or mini-cities consist of large and diverse business center concentrations, I would interject that it's quite uncommon practice to link such secondary cities by some form of rail, especially with no pre-existing railway RoW on which to re-develop of to expand.

Very few examples of this exist even in large urban regions, one notable example of this being "VTA", specifically the 3 light-rail lines of Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority,  serving San Jose and its own "burbs" in Silicon Valley.  It works there because of the density and complexity of commuting patterns among its 4 major corridors serving Santa Clara County; but it also works because of the contiguous network of other rail transit authorities serving the Peninsula, South Bay, and greater East Bay areas, all having evolved during the previous half century ─ some inherited, and, in the case of VTA itself, all new construction dating from the late 1980s.  An under-construction extension of the Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) will provide a somewhat seamless connection from San Jose to East Bay routes, which radiate form Oakland, and which also will provide an entirely new path from East Bay to this South Bay region around the southern extent of the San Francisco Bay.  And yet another "diagonal" direct connection was started in the late '90s as the "ACE" (Altamont Commuter Express), connecting the formerly unlikely-linked cities of San Jose and Stockton, via the Altamont Pass, in the Diablo Mountain Range east of the Bay Area proper.  ACE is a railroad-type commuter service which pays the railroad (Union Pacific) for the use of its tracks.  Then to top it off are Capitol Corridor and CalTrain railroad-type commuter rail which connect S-J to Sacramento (via Oakland, Martinez, and Davis) and San Francisco (via the  Peninsula).

All these different rail links have "hubs" of their own, but they also comprise an unusual pattern of each having at least one terminus coinciding or terminating at San Jose (Diridon Center), something rather different from the norm of having a confluence within the generally assumed largest cities of a given region.   Perhaps this is the long-term effect of having a massive array of dense communities and commercial activity concentrated in such geographically constrained boundaries and county jurisdictions.  That being said, very few other regions have afforded a single lateral, cross-linked connection between outlying cities as far out as Franklin and Murfreesboro, from their primary MSA core city of Nashville.  Then too, it might not seem to be a fair comparison since the SF area consists of an MSA with no single municipality holding a substantially dominant position ─ "San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward" MSA, which morphed in shape (and name) as a result of rapid redistribution of density during the last half century.  "NJ Transit"'s network of bus, commuter- and light-rail, serving all of New Jersey, and including Philadelphia and a couple of counties of New York, also can be said to link cities "off the beaten path", while spanning at least two large hubs of separate concentrations of connectivity.

The point is, unless the respective outlying counties work among or between themselves, it seems highly unlikely that any rail ─ commuter or light ─ would take shape, as part of a single regional transit authority (although it could be contracted to be operated by one), and such a development in concept usually would succeed those individual cities each having its own reasonably-orchestrated "intramural" transit system, on which to circulate, once cross-commuters arrive.  Having connectivity at each end or "node", say Lebanon, Murfreesboro, and Franklin, each with a direct route to Nashville, and reverse commuting, would help to rationalize the sustainability of such a cross line.
-==-

 

[markhollin]

Fascinating computer graphic shows incoming commuter flow in and around Davison County:

http://www.bizjournals.com/nashville/blog/2016/06/check-out-your-commute-and-everyone-elses-in.html#i1

[Neigeville2]

Link to WSJ article about gondola transit systems.  I can see this working in DT, especially in the future when the East Bank is developed and we will probably need a couple more pedestrian bridges.  Or does this take too much imagination for us? 

Like the outdoor public escalators that are popping up in South America and elsewhere.  We could use those in a few places; you'd think as lazy as people are here they'd be easy to convince.  

Hong Kong is so cool, and apparently not as filthy as it used to be:

 

[Hey_Hey]

Here's a cut and copy of a post of mine from December, 2012.  It's easier to cut and paste as opposed to linking or re-writing. This was from the Green Hills thread. 

----------------------------------------

 

This discussion about transit options in Green Hills and the limitations involved with it got me to thinking back a little bit to an idea I had a while ago. This would be applicable for the Green Hills transit situations as well as all of Nashville. 

 

A few years ago on Skyscraperpage I started a thread in which I presented the option of a network of gondolas/trams to provide an integrated transit network in second and third tier cities. At that point I was living in Toledo which has poor public transit and I was brainstorming ways to improve on that while understanding the cost limitations most cities have with rolling out a light rail or heavy rail system. http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=153094

 

Some people on there downplayed it, but then others thought it was interesting. Could this work in Green Hills since traditional buses aren't really much better in terms of speed of transit than autos and rail seems to be a dream?

 

Here's my premise:

-In 2nd and 3rd tier cities there is a need for mass transit but limited funds and limited ridership are major hurdles.

-A network of lines is greater than the sum of its parts, so ideally multiple lines of transit would be integrated in a relatively short timeframe.

-Fixed route, regular interval departure with multiple origination and destination possibilities are key to people using a system

-There is not a realistic possibility of cities like Nashville getting a truly integrated rail network (or even BRT) within 20 years when starting from scratch.

-Gondolas/Trams can be built in a relatively short period of time and much more inexpensively than rail or BRT.

 

These systems are in use in several places, most notably ski resorts, and provide a very efficient method of travel. Capacities are comparable to light rail (in the thousands per hour) and is fully scalable depending on needs, and pickup intervals can be as frequent as every few seconds or as infrequent as once per hour. They can utilize existing right of way over roads, so land acquisition costs are minimal. They can travel up to 20-25 mph with current technology which puts Green Hills to Downtown transit time in the 10-15 minute range. In terms of cost they are much cheaper than Light rail or BRT.....on the order of $10-15 million per mile compared to $50-100 million/mile for rail. 

 

In an ideal world, Nashville would have a network of 10 subway lines with a hundred stations. Of course, that's never going to happen. In a slightly less ideal world Nashville would have 10 HRT or LRT lines with a hundred stations. That too won't happen. A network of BRT lines around the city could happen, but with funding the way it currently is, I don't see that being fully completed for 20-30 years. Maybe we need to dramatically rethink transit options because with the current set of options cities like Nashville, Charlotte, Austin, and Louisville are going to forever be left out.

----------------------------------

In the 3.5 years since I wrote this, I still believe it is a viable option for Nashville.  It doesn't address the transit problem from Franklin or Murfreesboro, but it would work for everything from Green Hills/Sylvan Park/100 Oaks/Eastwood/MetroCenter and in.  You could probably stretch it to the airport over a 20-25 minute ride, but that would probably be the first eat extent it could reasonably go.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Hey_Hey