Richmond's Suburban Developments

[wrldcoupe4]

An outdoor mall tries to imitate a thriving city streetscape. I'd rather have a thriving city streetscape downtown than a "Disney" mall. There's plenty of empty storefronts that could be full of retailers...the same retailers that settle into suburban malls.

Edited March 20, 2006 by wrldcoupe4

[TBurban]

IMO, Richmond is more for retailers like the ones in Carytown. Those are the shops that settle in those streetfront buildings. An open air mall would atrract the retailers that usually go into suburban malls. Then leading to the expansion of these retailers into the streetfront buildings in the downtown area. It happened in Short Pump, and sorry to bring that up. It all started with that one mall that led to office buildings and condos, retail, etc... I think thats what Richmond needs in order to inspire other companies to build things along those lines down there. Its happening right now with ROTJ and VOTJ and even with Toads Place. Mixed use is the way to go.

Edited March 20, 2006 by RVA_tommy

[ric75]

IMO, Richmond is more for retailers like the ones in Carytown. Those are the shops that settle in those streetfront buildings. An open air mall would atrract the retailers that usually go into suburban malls. Then leading to the expansion of these retailers into the streetfront buildings in the downtown area. It happened in Short Pump, and sorry to bring that up. It all started with that one mall that led to office buildings and condos, retail, etc... I think thats what Richmond needs in order to inspire other companies to build things along those lines down there. Its happening right now with ROTJ and VOTJ and even with Toads Place. Mixed use is the way to go.

I have mixed feelings about bringing big name chains into the city. I like the fact that most shops/restaurants in Carytown you can only find on that one street and nowhere else in the country. For a city to have character it has to have these privately owned establishments. Chains would bring in more people from the outskirts and provide a place for city dwellers to shop more cheaply but it also makes Richmond a little more like every other city in the country. I think one centrally located "chain" district or mall would be OK a long as it was developed in an urban manner, meaning it should be indoors, have several levels, and not be surrounded by surface lots. To be honest something like 6th St. Marketplace probably would have worked downtown a couple years from now with all the development going on. I think it was just a matter of bad timing. But anyways, keep the chains a minimum... I don't want to see Starbucks and Panera's popping up everywhere like you see in Chesterfield or Henrico.

[wrldcoupe4]

use the available stock of storefronts for developing retail downtown... or new storefronts on the street level of new mixed use projects. I don't want to see a suburban disney mall downtown, indoor or outdoor. I wouldn't have a problem seeing starbucks and panera downtown...put them in the first floor of something like the John Marshall or something and I think it would be fantastic.

A shortpump style disney mall, while nice for a mall, shouldn't go downtown. The grid should stay in tact as much as possible.

[TBurban]

Yeah, Short Pump traffics a mess with that street layout of theres. Your right, it would be nice to see places like Starbucks and Panera in a place such as John Marshall Hotel or even the Vistas on the James restaurant space.

[Cadeho]

Wow. That's a bit melodramatic. Geez, they didn't build that place just to piss you off. There were a lot of people out there who expected a certain level of retail, and who would go to Northern Virginia to get it. Now, although it doesn't particularly benefit the center city, at least the money stays in the metro area.

Don't get me wrong, I love downtown and wish that Henrico and Chesterfield could come up with some sort of revenue sharing that would benefit the city (GASP!!! SOCIALISM!!!). I try to get down there as much as I possibly can, which is difficult since I have two little ones and work in NOVA most of the week. I think I'm probably the prototypical "new" western Henricoan in that regard, for better or worse. At least I'm not one of the long-time residents who shudder at the prospects of "goin' dow-un thay-uh buh-cah-wuz of all the muh-daz".

Now, if I was single or it was just my wife and I, I'm pretty sure I'd be looking at some loft or townhouse downtown. But the problem would still be diversity of retail, and then I'd end up having to go out to the suburban malls for some of what I'd need. Heck, they're just stores. Some happen to be downtown, some happen to be in a suburban mall. No need to boycott them just because they aren't where you want them to be!

Actually my Hokie friend, they did!

I'm kidding about that, but look, if those people out there in Wyndham, Wellesley, and whatever out there were tired of going to northern Va to shop, how do you think people east of the Boulevard feel? They used to have it and all of a sudden in a span of 3 years, it was all gone. When Miller & Rhoads closed in 1990. all the other stores were still open and one by one, they all closed. The decline wasn't exactly decades long, although if you want to consider the building of the interstates and suburban malls, then yeah it was in the books. But that didn't have to happen. The city gave up and didn't even fight. I remember a Gorrell cartoon in the paper that had an areal view of downtown with a caption saying "The last one out, please turn off the lights!"

Once the big stores were gone, it seemed like everybody was leaving and things just went down hill then. In the 80s downtown in my eyes was still glorious although its golden age had passed. We did a lot of our shopping downtown, and if not there, then Thalhimer's off Westmoreland (I think), Willow Lawn, Regency, and Eastgate. but those were the places to go when we were forced to look elsewhere. Going to the suburbs isn't a choice for city dwellers, it's a mandate now by those who have settled into the notion that this is the way it has to be.

Now, you say it is socialism to share the wealth? If I can remember and I may have to go find it, when the freeze on annexation was put in place, Chesterfield and Henrico were supposed to compensate the city for lost revenue. No one knows what happened to that.

Once again I see the attitude of, "isn't it supposed to be this way?" coming up. Carytown is not downtown and downtown has had chains before. A Starbucks, Radio Shack, Circuit City, Barnes & Noble, another Tower, a department store... wouldn't hurt. There will always be the home-grown places, but will they or can they really cater to all needs? It's not about the suburbanization or Disneyfying downtown, but bringing in those stores to serve the community. If a suburb went up with houses only and had no retail, there would be complaints or people wouldn't move to that place. Well that's what's going on now. Tons of housing opportunities and still forced to spend your gas and time getting to the far reaches of outter space just to buy a simple item. I know life's not fair, but that is really foul. I guess some Richmonders aren't deserving or just that inferior. And it is no secret how the posh west-enders look down their noses on the rest of the city. I saw it years ago when I went to shcool there. We made fun of it at work years later. Do not dare deny it doesn't exist, you'd be lying to yourself. Now they've finally won with a New Richmond of their own. To hell with Richmond!

And no, it isn't coming.

If you have kids, I admit, they're better off out there because of the schools... but then, there's private school. That's how I didn't see but one year of RPS. My aunt saw how bad it was then in 1983-1984.

[Culpeper Hokie]

Once the big stores were gone, it seemed like everybody was leaving and things just went down hill then.

It happened in all big cities during that period of time, but I think it hit Richmond particularly hard because of the Confederate attitudes many people had. When major pushes for desegregation occurred, white people and the businesses they owned, flew from downtown so fast, it would make your head spin. Of course, that's a simplistic explanation, and one which everyone already knows.

The good news is, attitudes in race relations have finally evolved to the point that white people aren't afraid to live side by side with people of other races (at least most - there are still some diehards). Now that one whole segment of the population is not draining from the cities, the bleeding is beginning to subside, and the tide is beginning to turn. I think many of the bad things we have come to associate with downtowns, will slowly pass into history over the coming decades. It might be like watching the minute hand move around the clock dial, but it moves, nonetheless. Look at how different downtown Richmond is now than 10 or 15 years ago. Progress. Small steps, but progress.

Now, you say it is socialism to share the wealth?

NO! I don't call it that, but there are plenty of folks who feel that way. I don't think revenue sharing accross a metropolitan area is Socialism at all. The city is the core of the region, and if it rots, then the whole metro area suffers. Henrico and Chesterfield need to share the wealth to keep the whole metro healthy.

[burt]

I have mixed feelings about a disney-ish (if that's the word some like to use) shopping area downtown. When you look at the aerials of practically empty blocks between 2nd, 6th, Main and The Expressway, I can easily envision thriving retail/entertainment activity centered in the area. Bow Tie just MAY be the pioneer in the movement; we'll have to wait and see. Imagination, intelligence and innovative planning could combine suburban-style, Carytown-like development with some existing structures such as the Richmond Plaza building, the pleasing Richmond Ballet, Crown Plaza Hotel and the few remaining town houses. Commercial and residential high rises and ample parking would be part of the plan. Disney planning could come into play by devising means to transport people up and down the hills of the area in an exciting and unique way.

Edited March 21, 2006 by burt

[wrldcoupe4]

I'd like to see highrises in the area you're talking about burt... Reach for the sky, and pack the streetlevel with pedestrian oriented activity (shops, restaurants, offices, etc), create focal points with plazas and fountains, keep the street grid in tact and voila! Basically, I don't want to see an actual shopping mall downtown. I want to create what malls try to emulate. With that area being only a few blocks from the river, VCU, and downtown, I'm surprised it hasn't exploded already.

[burt]

I'd like to see highrises in the area you're talking about burt... Reach for the sky, and pack the streetlevel with pedestrian oriented activity (shops, restaurants, offices, etc), create focal points with plazas and fountains, keep the street grid in tact and voila! Basically, I don't want to see an actual shopping mall downtown. I want to create what malls try to emulate. With that area being only a few blocks from the river, VCU, and downtown, I'm surprised it hasn't exploded already.

That's my idea, generally, Coupe. But one of the drawbacks is topography - hills ranging from minor to major. Imaginative lifting devices might be an answer.

[wrldcoupe4]

I think we all agree for the most part What kind of a lifting device would you be thinking of?

[burt]

I think we all agree for the most part What kind of a lifting device would you be thinking of?

Hahaha. That's where Disney's imaginative boys come into play. With Richmond's chilly winters and sweltering summers. climate has to be a factor. Maybe the entire area could be inside an enormous bubble, but then, that would just be another enclosed mall, wouldn't it?

Cable cars? Escalators? Moving sidewalks? Monorails?

[wrldcoupe4]

rent out segways?

[TBurban]

Whoa those things are awesome!

[burt]

Whoa those things are awesome!

I like 'em too. How come they haven't really caught on?

Merchants in "our downtown" could supply them to customers, return guaranteed, with purchases.

[TBurban]

I like 'em too. How come they haven't really caught on?

Merchants in "our downtown" could supply them to customers, return guaranteed, with purchases.

Haha, if I lived downtown, Id be sure to have one

[Cadeho]

We could do Jetson moving sidewalks (my second reference to them tonight... what's with them?!). The hills aren't that bad really. The only place where they'd be bad is along Byrd St. Canal, Cary, and Main's aren't that bad. But I'd rather see towers to change the skyline. Broad and Grace are our traditional shopping mecca... so you're envisioning a spread out area?

[wrldcoupe4]

Chesterfield County's budget is up for vote tonight... The proposed $1.1 billion budget is a 15+% increase from last year's budget. About half of the budget goes to public schools... (with about 60 schools and about 53,000 students, it is one of the 100 largest school systems in the country).

Chesterfield currently has around 285,000 residents and is the largest locality in the Richmond metro area.

[wrldcoupe4]

Looks like there is a compromise regarding the height of the buildings in West Broad Village...

High-rise compromise in Short Pump

quick excerpts:

The proposed West Broad Village may now be three shorter office buildings instead of two tall ones....Now, the developer is redrawing the plans with three 12-story tall office towers.

There's also a rendering in the link

[eandslee]

Looks like there is a compromise regarding the height of the buildings in West Broad Village...

High-rise compromise in Short Pump

quick excerpts:

There's also a rendering in the link

Well, that's just dumb...12 stories, 18 stories...not much of a difference there. That's just dumb. I'd rather see 2 22 story buildings!

[wrldcoupe4]

I could care less about how tall they are since they're in short pump..

[TBurban]

I guess the rendering is of one of the 3 towers. I wonder if theyll still be able to court Mead Westavco.....Although, Id rather see it going downtown. Well, looks like the old farm is history either way

Edited March 24, 2006 by RVA_tommy

[burt]

If they're going to go above 4 floors, go all the way! I have a notion that the developers bow to criticism from activists who they fear may make a lot of noise eventho the activists may be in the minority. There is a noisy contingent in Richmond that has delayed and killed projects.

But on the upside, maybe Mead/Westvaco would rather consolidate in one building which could be good for Centennial.

[JWCJ]

The eastend may be getting a new mall on luburnem Ave.

[wrldcoupe4]

a new mall? I know the Viasystems tract is being redeveloped, but it will, for the most part, be a very strip mallish development.