GreenCity/GreenCity Arena - $2.3B Ecodistrict

[I miss RVA]

11 hours ago, Brent114 said:

1) it’s a fantastic looking building, just needs a cleaning

2) venues don’t get booked based on their outward appearance.  
 

Capacity  and outdated mechanicals are the only real issues. 

Respectfully will disagree. It's a complete waste of space that adds zero value to downtown Richmond. What's proposed in City Center is a FAR more cohesive, FAR better use of the land that has the potential to transform an otherwise moribund, desolate part of downtown into something that reconnects with what was the traditional retail core and can help that entire stretch of downtown north of Broad from Jackson Ward and the convention center on the west to VCU Health on the east blossom into a high-density district with people living, working and partaking of city life. It's not the complete panacea to what ails downtown - but it can go a long way toward generating significant vitality -- on a daily and nightly basis -- to a part of the city that has sat fallow now for better than 50 years.

The Coliseum's time has come and gone. Time for something new and different downtown. What's there now (regardless of its condition) is far from the best and highest possible use of the land (from an urban planning perspective). Unfortunately, this isn't New York where a round arena plunked into a square street grid (as in MSG sitting atop Penn Station in Midtown Manhattan) not only works but generates activity. That was the game plan back in 1971 - but with nothing else around it - there was no way this would work. City Center is - far and a way - a MUCH higher and better use of the land.

Btw - I DO agree that metro RVA needs a proper arena - and if it can work out in Green City, awesome. If not there, perhaps somewhere else in the metro. I'm very hopeful Green City will work - and that the powers that be can get this thing moving forward in the very near future. The more projects like this just sit - the more I begin to question their viability. Here's hoping a fire can be lit underneath the county's collective tuchuses to get this thing moving forward.

[Downtowner]

On 12/2/2023 at 9:33 AM, Brent114 said:

1) it’s a fantastic looking building, just needs a cleaning

2) venues don’t get booked based on their outward appearance.  
 

Capacity  and outdated mechanicals are the only real issues. 

Ray Charles and Stevie wonder agree with you. About the only people who would agree until they get near it and smell it and go what’s that awful smell. 

[Rooster]

I never understood the hate the coliseum gets. While not as nice as Hampton it has the same spaceship vibe and I always thought it looked pretty cool (poor acoustics for a concert though). Ive spent alot of time over the years in festival park there -walks at lunchtime and even a group exercise thing a few years ago- and always thought it was underappreciated...

[Flood Zone]

On 12/2/2023 at 11:18 AM, eandslee said:

It's more than just outward appearance, capacity, and mechanicals - it's format and how everything is laid out (for logistics as well as services for patrons).  Additionally, the acoustics suck in that building - something that can't be fixed by adding paint.  The whole building is obsolete.  It's had a shelf life and that has long expired.  Time to tear it down...and now it's an eyesore.

The architect of The Diamond once explained, rather persuasively, how even it could be remodeled to accommodate more modern times, but what is possible and what is realistic are not the same. 

In addition to the very real issues you cite, the Coliseum's seating capacity also is a square peg/round hole. It's on the low end of mid-size and in that respect is neither an "intimate" venue nor big enough to attract stuff like opening weekend NCAA tournament games or big shows. It was becoming a dinosaur in the early 2000s, even before the slippery floor embarrassment during that Michigan St. - UVA game.

[I miss RVA]

34 minutes ago, Flood Zone said:

The architect of The Diamond once explained, rather persuasively, how even it could be remodeled to accommodate more modern times, but what is possible and what is realistic are not the same. 

In addition to the very real issues you cite, the Coliseum's seating capacity also is a square peg/round hole. It's on the low end of mid-size and in that respect is neither an "intimate" venue nor big enough to attract stuff like opening weekend NCAA tournament games or big shows. It was becoming a dinosaur in the early 2000s, even before the slippery floor embarrassment during that Michigan St. - UVA game.

!!!  This!!! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[I miss RVA]

5 hours ago, Rooster said:

I never understood the hate the coliseum gets. While not as nice as Hampton it has the same spaceship vibe and I always thought it looked pretty cool (poor acoustics for a concert though). Ive spent alot of time over the years in festival park there -walks at lunchtime and even a group exercise thing a few years ago- and always thought it was underappreciated...

The issue isn't about what it looks like - it's about the fact that the Coliseum is no longer functional, is too small, too outdated, and, in retrospect, was an ill-conceived, ill-designed development that never - EVER - functioned in a way that the city fathers 50-plus years ago had hoped or envisioned. The premise in those days was that the Coliseum would spur redevelopment north of Broad akin to what today is being proposed in the City Center plans - that it would bring office buildings, retail/commercial establishments, etc., and turn that part of downtown into a vibrant, high-activity area not unlike the way Madison Square Garden interacts with its surrounding neighborhood in Midtown Manhattan. Obviously, 50 years of hindsight has demonstrated that the only thing the Coliseum brought was a sea of surface parking lots, a couple of parking decks, and virtually nothing else. 

I vividly recall the Coliseum being built - and I attended Richmond Robins hockey and Virginia Squires basketball games in 1971, '72, etc., and Richmond Rifles hockey games in the late '70s-early '80s. Later, as an undergrad student at VCU, I attended Rams basketball games in the early '80s and as a sportswriter for the Associated Press I covered the Rams at the Coliseum and Sun Belt Conference basketball throughout the '80s. I attended Richmond Renegades games in the '90s. What I recall the most was not whether or not the Coliseum was nice or how up-to-date this or that was. What I recall was that the area around the Coliseum was completely desolate and even on game nights was all but devoid of ANY human activity. Yeah - people going from their cars to the arena - and then back to their cars after a game. That was it. No restaurants. No bars. No office buildings. Nothing. Just a vast sea of parking. Even the construction of the convention center added virtually nothing to that part of downtown in terms of people activity.

All of this is to say - the Coliseum was originally envisioned as a project that would create a new, redeveloped neighborhood north of Broad, when - in reality - it did the exact opposite. Nothing came of it. The spaceship landed and nothing sprouted around it. Project One - as in the 600 Building and the Marriott Hotel on Broad - were too far away and were totally disconnected from the Coliseum. There was nothing in between. The ancient 6th Street market, which I recall as a kid in the '60s was a ROBUST, VIBRANT place teaming with people activity - was long gone. The retail establishments were long gone. The restaurants were long gone. Essentially the Coliseum was an island that - yes - had good uses and saw plenty of mileage, whether it was college basketball, minor league hockey, the circus, truck and tractor pulls, VCU graduation events, concerts and shows, professional wrestling, etc. But that mileage was only periodic and essentially seasonal and it came at a cost. And that cost was trading in what could have been 24-7-365 human activity (had the area been redeveloped differently) for limited bursts of activity that came in drips and drabs. "X" number of hockey games. "X" number of basketball games. "X" number of shows, concerts, wrestling events. The circus once a year. The ice capades once a year. You get the idea.

I'm grateful we had the Coliseum and could have live sports and concerts downtown and - in truth - I would love it if we could somehow still have live sports and big concerts in the city. But the Coliseum's time - and this kind of stand-alone development - has long-since come and gone - and its replacement with something much more sustainable is long overdue.

Remember - the axiom that for whatever reason in Richmond seems to get repeatedly overlooked/ignored (and I just don't understand why that's the case) is: form FOLLOWS function. In the the case of the Coliseum, the "form" is no longer of any consequence because the "function" (which was limited to begin with) has long-since become not just irrelevant, but non-existent.

Edited December 4, 2023 by I miss RVA

[Rooster]

I get it - and I dont disagree with anything you say about the matter, though I think you overstate it a little. I remember some fun friday cheers events doen there in the 80's, and Ive been part of whats a pretty bustling biotech environment in that neighborhood for the past 20 years with plenty of lunches/happy hours etc. Broad street, jackson ward.... I agree we could do better down there and dont begrudge any visions ie city center - bring it on! I was just commenting on not really understanding what seems to be a visceral hatred of the asthetics of the place expressed by some...

[Flood Zone]

On 12/4/2023 at 11:18 AM, I miss RVA said:

The issue isn't about what it looks like - it's about the fact that the Coliseum is no longer functional, is too small, too outdated, and, in retrospect, was an ill-conceived, ill-designed development that never - EVER - functioned in a way that the city fathers 50-plus years ago had hoped or envisioned. The premise in those days was that the Coliseum would spur redevelopment north of Broad akin to what today is being proposed in the City Center plans - that it would bring office buildings, retail/commercial establishments, etc., and turn that part of downtown into a vibrant, high-activity area not unlike the way Madison Square Garden interacts with its surrounding neighborhood in Midtown Manhattan.

Not meaning to be difficult, but WAS that the vision?  The sports-venue-as-economic-driver theory (or rationale, or cover story, or call it what you want) hit its zenith in the 1990s. The Coliseum doesn't seem to hit the prototype, especially given the embedded street grid on its north end. I see no great design other than hey let's put the arena here.

But I can't really say much for sure. I'm just a half-generation short of watching the thing get built, etc. I have very fond memories of pro wrestling (Jim Crockett Promotions - get that WWF stuff outta here), truck and tractor pulls, and NBA exhibitions, including one when Dr. J did a windmill dunk on the basket where my dad and I had endzone seats. But the most notable memories are probably CAA tournaments: 1990 when the 8th seeded Navy players screamed "Shock the world!" against top-seeded Lefty & the JMU Dukes, 1991 when Curtis Blair went the length of the floor to give Richmond a semifinal win, etc.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Flood Zone

[I miss RVA]

1 hour ago, Flood Zone said:

Not meaning to be difficult, but WAS that the vision?  The sports-venue-as-economic-driver theory (or rationale, or cover story, or call it what you want) hit its zenith in the 1990s. The Coliseum doesn't seem to hit the prototype, especially given the embedded street grid on its north end. I see no great design other than hey let's put the arena here.

But I can't really say much for sure. I'm just a half-generation short of watching the thing get built, etc. I have very fond memories of pro wrestling (Jim Crockett Promotions - get that WWF stuff outta here), truck and tractor pulls, and NBA exhibitions, including one when Dr. J did a windmill dunk on the basket where my dad and I had endzone seats. But the most notable memories are probably CAA tournaments: 1990 when the 8th seeded Navy players screamed "Shock the world!" against top-seeded Lefty & the JMU Dukes, 1991 when Curtis Blair went the length of the floor to give Richmond a semifinal win, etc.

@Flood Zone-- you're not being difficult at all. In fact, you ask a VERY valid question!

The answer is: 

Yep - that was, in fact, the vision. I remember the Coliseum being built. I remember how it changed the look and feel of 6th Street north of Broad (we used to go downtown all the time when I was a kid - and I have vivid memories of downtown from the late '60s).  I remember the whole vibe when it first opened, how all the talk was "oh this is gonna be SOOOOOO great, it's going to spur so much development and completely revitalize the northern part of downtown". There was ample talk of hotels (note - plural) - not just the Marriott on Broad. The thought was that stuff would magically start sprouting all around the shiny new Coliseum to meet the needs of attendees of events, convention goers, etc., because the thought at the time was it would be SUCH a big draw, it was "inevitable" that new development would sprout up all around it.

Now let me add that, regardless of the poor execution of ideas, I LOVED the mindset of the powers that be in those days. There was talk (and pretty crazy drawings) of completely changing the downtown riverfront and creating a full-blown marina that would be surrounded by Jetsonville-styled apartment and condo towers (probably office buildings, too - but I remember the thrust was residential development) that probably made legendary RVA architect Haigh Jamgochian smile. Ideas were VERY bold and  ambitious for what downtown might look like and what might go there. Remember, the general mindset was that Richmond's destiny was that she would quickly become the northern "bookend" to Atlanta - and plenty of folks looked at how downtown Atlanta was being developed for ideas about how to radically transform downtown RVA into a modern, up-to-date major urban center. It was UBER progressive and forward thinking - and had what was envisioned in those days actually come to pass, downtown would be a vastly different place today than it is. And truth be told, we probably WOULD already have a few 50 and 60-story buildings gracing our skyline. THAT's how forward-thinking folks were then.

Obviously - for tons of reasons - this never happened. I think it's easy to underestimate and overlook the deleterious impact that the annexation fight of the 1970s had on Richmond. It was a huge punch to the city's solar plexus that TOTALLY took the wind out of the sails of the city. The suspension of city council elections -- as in there were NO councilmanic elections in 1972, '74, or '76 -- had a chilling effect on growth and development. Yes - there was still private development downtown - mainly a handful of tall bank buildings being built - but all of the great plans the city had were essentially permanently tabled if for no other reason that no one knew what would be when elections would finally be resumed - which they were in 1977. The city -- for a variety of reasons (discussed elsewhere here) - was hemorrhaging population in the '70s. The political rancor (and resultant infighting) following the 1977-special and 1978 "regular" councilmanic elections put the final nails in the coffin of any kind of real progress and development downtown - and it carried over well into the '80s as council representatives -- many of whom had outsized personalities -- fought over EVERY-DAMN-THING.

So the Coliseum area sat as an island -- and we know what was done in the succeeding years with the construction of the convention center, the failed Sixth Street Marketplace mall, and other things. NONE of it was anywhere close to what was envisioned in the late '60s and first couple of years of the '70s when all the talk was how Richmond would become "the next Atlanta" and was supposed to be the country's next "big thing" in terms of burgeoning major cities.

That's a long, rambling answer to your question - apologies for the length. But yes - that actually WAS the original vision of how folks honestly thought the Coliseum legit be a catalyst for development when it was anything but. And you nailed it - it DOESN'T fit the prototype and it doesn't fit the street grid. It's literally a round peg jammed (or plopped - pick your poison) into a square hole. It's a suburban-style facility built in what originally was a dense urban grid (of course, EVERYTHING got cleared for - you guessed it - PARKING - because God-forbid anyone NOT drive in Richmond!) I'm thinking of a very vulgar British term to describe what this whole situation was. I'll refrain from using it - but if you know anything about British English, it prolly ain't too hard to figure out what term I'm thinking of.

That's the long and the short of it.

Edited December 5, 2023 by I miss RVA

[Flood Zone]

RTD article today says the Green City Arena is "tentatively scheduled to open late 2026 or early in 2027." The article is framed in the context of trying to lure UVA or Virginia Tech to play special games there (perhaps against UR or VCU, who would like that because getting shots at ACC teams would help the A10's strength of schedule). The executive director of the HS&EA says that kind of thing is necessary to get the attention of the NCAA for hosting opening weekend March Madness games.

[eandslee]

45 minutes ago, Flood Zone said:

RTD article today says the Green City Arena is "tentatively scheduled to open late 2026 or early in 2027." The article is framed in the context of trying to lure UVA or Virginia Tech to play special games there (perhaps against UR or VCU, who would like that because getting shots at ACC teams would help the A10's strength of schedule). The executive director of the HS&EA says that kind of thing is necessary to get the attention of the NCAA for hosting opening weekend March Madness games.

Henrico, on their sports and events center website, used to say that groundbreaking will be in 2024.  I just noticed that they deleted the groundbreaking date (which doesn’t bode well):

 https://henricosea.com/facilities-venues/greencity/

[I miss RVA]

51 minutes ago, Flood Zone said:

RTD article today says the Green City Arena is "tentatively scheduled to open late 2026 or early in 2027." The article is framed in the context of trying to lure UVA or Virginia Tech to play special games there (perhaps against UR or VCU, who would like that because getting shots at ACC teams would help the A10's strength of schedule). The executive director of the HS&EA says that kind of thing is necessary to get the attention of the NCAA for hosting opening weekend March Madness games.

 I like the idea of having an in-state "double-header" featuring VCU, UR, UVA and Virginia Tech - and having it in GreenCity at the new arena. Definitely would be a big marketing tool to get the A-10 to bring their conference tourney to Richmond and for the NCAA to put RVA into the regular "rotation" (if there is such a thing) of cities that host the opening two rounds. Would love to see it.

Here's the RT-D story:

https://richmond.com/sports/college/schools/university-richmond/university-of-virginia-virginia-tech-university-of-richmond-vcu/article_91a2df82-cc16-11ee-9e03-07105fdd95c2.html

[123fakestreet]

1 hour ago, I miss RVA said:

 I like the idea of having an in-state "double-header" featuring VCU, UR, UVA and Virginia Tech - and having it in GreenCity at the new arena. Definitely would be a big marketing tool to get the A-10 to bring their conference tourney to Richmond and for the NCAA to put RVA into the regular "rotation" (if there is such a thing) of cities that host the opening two rounds. Would love to see it.

We used to have the governor's cup in the coliseum. Friday would be "opening round" something like JMU vs Radford. Then you'd have doubleheader on Saturday with at least one opponent being a more big time school, VT vs Norfolk St, VCU vs W&M. Teams rotated each year, I went to VCU vs VT probably the last year they held it. It fell apart largely because VT & UVA and VCU, UR & GMU were in the same conferences and these matchups had to be out of conference, so it made scheduling difficult, as well as the Coliseum becoming more and more of a dump.

A10  is never going to come back to a small market like RVA. Their tournament is in NYC or DC now. But we should definitely try for things like the CAA tournament or the ACC women's, with an eye on an opening round NCAA. 

Edited February 16 by 123fakestreet

[Flood Zone]

14 minutes ago, 123fakestreet said:

A10  is never going to come back to a small market like RVA. Their tournament is in NYC or DC now.

Perhaps, although the A10 punches well above its weight in terms of its arena selection. Semifinal and final rounds usually get about 8,000 people; there was a slight uptick for last year's semifinal round because Fordham was involved. It's possible Green City Arena might get a shot if the cost break is good, given there are 2 area teams that could fill the place a bit.

[I miss RVA]

7 minutes ago, Flood Zone said:

Perhaps, although the A10 punches well above its weight in terms of its arena selection. Semifinal and final rounds usually get about 8,000 people; there was a slight uptick for last year's semifinal round because Fordham was involved. It's possible Green City Arena might get a shot if the cost break is good, given there are 2 area teams that could fill the place a bit.

Having two A-10 schools to serve as "co-hosts" should help, though I know what you mean - if either/both get dumped out in the first round - ugh. Still - even if the arena is something in the neighborhood of 17,500-18,000 - would the A-10 balk at going to that facility? Could there be enough of a cost break to incentivize them coming here?

Am guessing they would be the only specific conference that would consider coming to Richmond, yes? 

[123fakestreet]

43 minutes ago, I miss RVA said:

Having two A-10 schools to serve as "co-hosts" should help, though I know what you mean - if either/both get dumped out in the first round - ugh. Still - even if the arena is something in the neighborhood of 17,500-18,000 - would the A-10 balk at going to that facility? Could there be enough of a cost break to incentivize them coming here?

Am guessing they would be the only specific conference that would consider coming to Richmond, yes? 

Capacity doesn't even matter, it's about the "prestige." They want to say their tourney is in NYC. 

ACC used to play in Greensboro all the time, they still go there every few years for tradition but they need their tourney to sound big time, and no one hears "Greensboro" and thinks "big time." Unfortunately same thing with Richmond.

[I miss RVA]

7 minutes ago, 123fakestreet said:

and no one hears "Greensboro" and thinks "big time." Unfortunately same thing with Richmond.

We need to change that, then. We need to get bigger - a LOT bigger - and do it quickly.

What you just said drives home the point - WE ARE STILL TOO DAMN SMALL.

[wrldcoupe4]

We aren’t big time. That’s OK

[Flood Zone]

3 hours ago, 123fakestreet said:

Capacity doesn't even matter, it's about the "prestige." They want to say their tourney is in NYC. 

ACC used to play in Greensboro all the time, they still go there every few years for tradition but they need their tourney to sound big time, and no one hears "Greensboro" and thinks "big time." Unfortunately same thing with Richmond.

Although true, the fact of the matter is the ACC can sell out 20,000 seat arenas and the A10 can’t come close. So the A10 presumably is paying a lot of money with not much return just for the right to say that their tournament is in the big city. Which is great, but if they ever tire of that model, a new arena in a footprint market represented by two teams might get a crack. That would be our pitch, I’d guess.

[Child2021]

2 hours ago, wrldcoupe4 said:

We aren’t big time. That’s OK

I agree, sometimes bigger doesn't always mean better.

[I miss RVA]

No one is talking about turning Richmond into NYC or going from 233K to 9 million. It would just be nice to be "big time" enough to not get constantly bypassed by damn near EVERYTHING for a change.

I guess if it's okay to not strive for things, then in this particular case, why even waste the time, money, resources, etc., in building an arena? We obviously "don't need it" (where have we heard THIS before?) because apparently it's "OK" to simply settle and to not have things that other cities enjoy (and they enjoy them for the sole reason that they didn't -- and don't -- think settling was/is "OK" and they put serious effort into doing what has led - and continues to lead - to significant growth and development).

And folks I'm being purposely hyperbolic here, but you get the point.

[Flood Zone]

An otherwise unremarkable story about Henrico buying 8 acres near the Green City site contains a nugget that the arena is targeted for completion at the end of 2026. We'll see.

[I miss RVA]

GreenCity still appears to be making progress.

Jonathan Spiers has reporting in today's RBS that the Henrico Economic Development Authority has purchased a small parcel adjacent to the northern edge of the southern half of the GreenCity development site. The parcel sits next to the stretch of Scott Road that will be widened into the extension of the Magellan Parkway, bisecting GreenCity. There are no plans for the property just yet.

On interesting takeaway from Jonathan's reporting regarding timing of the overall GreenCity project:

The arena is targeted for completion by the end of 2026, and Markel | Eagle has said for-sale homes could start being built in late 2025 or in 2026. Full build-out of the entire GreenCity project is anticipated in 2033.

We'll see how things shake out. The county is suggesting that the private sector will drive the timing of how the development moves forward, based on economic conditions.

From today's Richmond BizSense:

https://richmondbizsense.com/2024/04/03/henrico-eda-buys-8-acres-near-greencity-site-for-2m/

From Henrico County's government website re: the Magellan Parkway project:

https://henrico.us/projects/magellan-parkway-extension/