Charlotte-Douglas Airport (CLT) Expansion

[Dale]

I'm hoping the current round of renovations will elevate the experience.

[LKN704]

I often wonder (hypothetically speaking) of what it would be like if CLT were to start from scratch and rebuild an entirely new terminal building, maybe keeping D/E. I wonder if AA would ultimately give CLT its blessing, and what type of terminal CLT would build.  

Regarding PIT, IIRC, the county was willing to renegotiate the lease rates and landing fees with US but ultimately if they lowered US's fees, they would have to lower them for all carriers. US threatened to move all ops to PHL and CLT if their fees weren't lowered, and they eventually made good on their threats. 

PHL/PIT didn't compete with each other. PIT served as the Midwest hub for US and served primarily East-West traffic flows. Several cities on the West coast were only served from PIT (SJC/SNA/ABQ). Likewise, when the hub was closed, a lot of small/medium Midwestern cities lost US service. 

[Miesian Corners]

On 4/8/2017 at 0:29 AM, xapostrophe said:

Charlotte is awful.  Operationally its absurd.  The ramp, taxi and runway/terminal configuration is awful.  one way traffic, tight alley ways are an incredible way to waste some time.  The inside of a b c leaves a lot to be desired.  should have been updated at least 15 years ago.  the bathrooms all smell like old pee.  I can go on.

It'ts so awful it lived through two bankruptcies, yet PIT didn't.

CLT is still here as a very profitable hub at AA because it's cheap. PIT was shuttered because Allegheny County would't reduce costs for US back when it began to bleed money, CLT on the other hand, asked the airline what it needed and made good on every request.I might think Jerry Orr did our airport a disservice by deferring much needed maintenance, but he did do a phenomenally good job at keeping it a major hub airport.

I travel every week. I'll take connecting at CLT over DFW, PHX, ATL or ORD ANY DAY OF THE WEEK. As a matter of fact, I dread my trip home from Albuquerque next week because I have to change terminals at DFW. 

[cjd5050]

14 minutes ago, Miesian Corners said:

I might think Jerry Orr did our airport a disservice by deferring much needed maintenance, but he did do a phenomenally good job at keeping it a major hub airport.

Are these not the same thing?

[caterpillar2]

On 4/8/2017 at 2:29 AM, xapostrophe said:

Charlotte is awful.  Operationally its absurd.  The ramp, taxi and runway/terminal configuration is awful.  one way traffic, tight alley ways are an incredible way to waste some time.  The inside of a b c leaves a lot to be desired.  should have been updated at least 15 years ago.  the bathrooms all smell like old pee.  I can go on.

My guess is that you haven't been to JFK, Boston, or many other numerous airports. I see nothing wrong with Charlotte. The restaurant availability is good, the concourses  are clean and certainly on par or above, and the bathrooms are clean with attendants. I don't know what bathroom you used, but it must have been after someone with bladder disease peed. What exactly are you referring to when you say "a b c leaves a lot to be desired?" Additionally, what do you mean by "one way?"  I thought that all runways were one way with a big green area in between. What are the "alley ways?"  I am just curious. I mostly travel from Clt direct to Europe and sometimes go through other places. I see nothing wrong. I think the Charlotte airport is quite nice and I absolutely love the USO which I use if there is a delay or long wait. It is know as the second best airport  USO facility in the U.S. thanks to Jerry Orr. Saying "Charlotte is awful" needs some clarification and specifics. Sounds like personal grudge or 'airport envy' to me. There are likely more desirable airports around the world but Charlotte certainly is satisfactory and overall has one of the best on-time records in the U.S. 

Edited April 9, 2017 by caterpillar2

[RiverwoodCLT]

I like Charlotte Douglas for getting around better than Denver or Dallas.

[elrodvt]

CLT airport is also bottom half? to me. Feels really old, all chain restaurants, few device power stations or work areas. I could go on. Keep an open mind and compare it to Denver or MSP or Portland or half a dozen others in similarly sized cities. Sure LGA, JFK, BOS and many other large international airports are much worse but that doesn't mean we cannot aspire to be the best among cities our size. It sounds like you don't see those other airports though?

Never been to USO and most travelers haven't either I would guess but glad it is nice for the folks who qualify. That's only for current or former military right?

[15895]

I fly Delta and usually east coast, Europe & South America. The only airport in the US I've been to and thought was beautiful is Detroit. Detroit is so beautiful looking. I think the ugliest interior, lack of stores or food (they were all chains too) lack of Windows, most shabby, rag tag customs area has been Atlanta. I've never flown international from Atlanta so maybe that concourse is good. But the terminals I always get in ATL are atrocious. 

 

I never really go through B or C, but A in Charlotte is lackluster but ok. Much better than ATL.

D and especially E I think are fairly nice.

 

but it's fine. Charlotte pretty much connects people from the east coast and I'm not sure people are so much about an airport looks unless your waiting on international arrivals we're you're stuck in an airport for longer times. I mean. My layovers are always so quick. 

 

Even in foreign countries, they're not that great. 

I mean. T4 in Madrid now that I think about it is amazing. Not really any stores. The other domestic nonsky team terminals in MAD are worse than clt.

The international terminal in Paris is fairly ugly and old looking. It has lots of highend stores with not a single shopper in them. The terminal with the low cost airlines is literally a tin shed... no jet ways. 

the TAP terminal in Lisbon is very ugly but they have the typical glitzy mall thing you have to walk through that no one shops at.

São Paulo's international terminal is stunning and shops are busy. The domestic ones, looks pretty 3rd world.

 

I mean. Only Detroit so far has been overall pretty I've seen 

 

(And there's more chains I've seen in foreign airports than clt. I remember being hungry in Lisbon. There was Pizza Hut. KFC. McDonalds. Starbucks. And 2 local places. This was the fancy terminal with the mall thing.)

Edited April 9, 2017 by AirNostrumMAD

[KJHburg]

The USO serves active duty military and retired military. Yes we have a lot of chains at CLT like 10 Starbucks maybe more but there is also regional favorites like Bojangles, Dale Jr's bar, Bad Daddy;s burgers,  the 1897 Market restaurant, some Barbecue places  Here's current list from the CLT website http://www.cltairport.com/MapsandDirections/Documents/CLT Maps/SDWRMap.pdf  Yes national chains but some local favorites too. Plus we are getting a Chick-fil-a another very popular chain. 

The end users voted and they voted CLT #2 in USA so we are doing something right. From Travel and Leisure magazine 

http://www.travelandleisure.com/slideshows/americas-best-and-worst-airports/13

Edited April 9, 2017 by KJHburg

[nowensone]

1 (MSP) and 3 (DTW) have great bars/brews and restaurants but I always seem to be unlucky in having to go from one corner of each to the other, lessening my agreement there but perhaps that is just luck of the draw.  CLT's hub/spoke design does make this less a bit less an issue.

[elrodvt]

2 hours ago, nowensone said:

1 (MSP) and 3 (DTW) have great bars/brews and restaurants but I always seem to be unlucky in having to go from one corner of each to the other, lessening my agreement there but perhaps that is just luck of the draw.  CLT's hub/spoke design does make this less a bit less an issue.

Yeah, I get that I'm just commenting on the amenities and feel of the airport.  Taking trains to connect is definitely stressful when it's tight.

You would have even better luck in BTV. There your gate will be next to the one you arrive at. ;-)

[KJHburg]

When I fly to China via DFW on the way back I have to always leave secured area take a train to another terminal then do security again to get back to CLT. Any international passengers arriving in CLT going elsewhere would not have to do that. I have also done the same at EWR  and LAX on an international flight. 

[LKN704]

I've  said it before D and E are fine. 

My favorite terminals in the US are: TBIT at LAX, JFK T8, PDX, DFW International Terminal, IND, and the refurbished UA terminal at SFO. 

But my favorite terminal by far is the international terminal at SFO. I love the large, grand check in lobby. It's truly beautiful, architecturally speaking. Great food options as well.  

[saam14]

According to to our favorite airline forum ... Charlotte to Curaçao was cut for October. Does anyone have any info on that? Still bummed Insel Air cut its service to Charlotte

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

6 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I fly Delta and usually east coast, Europe & South America. The only airport in the US I've been to and thought was beautiful is Detroit. Detroit is so beautiful looking. I think the ugliest interior, lack of stores or food (they were all chains too) lack of Windows, most shabby, rag tag customs area has been Atlanta. I've never flown international from Atlanta so maybe that concourse is good. But the terminals I always get in ATL are atrocious. 

 

I never really go through B or C, but A in Charlotte is lackluster but ok. Much better than ATL.

D and especially E I think are fairly nice.

 

but it's fine. Charlotte pretty much connects people from the east coast and I'm not sure people are so much about an airport looks unless your waiting on international arrivals we're you're stuck in an airport for longer times. I mean. My layovers are always so quick. 

 

Even in foreign countries, they're not that great. 

I mean. T4 in Madrid now that I think about it is amazing. Not really any stores. The other domestic nonsky team terminals in MAD are worse than clt.

The international terminal in Paris is fairly ugly and old looking. It has lots of highend stores with not a single shopper in them. The terminal with the low cost airlines is literally a tin shed... no jet ways. 

the TAP terminal in Lisbon is very ugly but they have the typical glitzy mall thing you have to walk through that no one shops at.

São Paulo's international terminal is stunning and shops are busy. The domestic ones, looks pretty 3rd world.

 

I mean. Only Detroit so far has been overall pretty I've seen 

 

(And there's more chains I've seen in foreign airports than clt. I remember being hungry in Lisbon. There was Pizza Hut. KFC. McDonalds. Starbucks. And 2 local places. This was the fancy terminal with the mall thing.)

 

I honestly wonder if you were even flying through Atlanta... I can't think of 1 terminal that is rag tag. Most don't even have carpet anymore. The international terminal is gorgeous. 

Charlotte is my hometown and I love it, but Charlotte Douglas is much more rag tag. 

[CLT2014]

11 hours ago, saam14 said:

According to to our favorite airline forum ... Charlotte to Curaçao was cut for October. Does anyone have any info on that? Still bummed Insel Air cut its service to Charlotte

AA has pushed the seasonal service on Curacao from starting in October to starting November 11th (further after hurricane season). There will still be seasonal service in the winter.

Insel Air went basically bankrupt in 2016. They were forced to ground their planes due to not having cash to operate a reliable maintenance program. The government finally shut them down after some mid flight cabin pressure issues that resulted in emergency landings. The airline has suspended all their routes for the time being except for Aruba, Bonaire, and Sint Maarten. All other destinations, including Miami, have been suspended until the airline re-organizes and can safely operate the larger aircraft. 

Edited April 10, 2017 by CLT2014

[HopHead]

I just don't get the complaint about "chain restaurants". If you've actually been to the CLT airport at all in the last couple years, you'll know it's not just filled with national chains. 1897 Market, First in Flight, Whisky River, Bad Daddy's, etc are all places off the top of my head that are unique to the airport or region. Airport food options cater to the general traveling population, which usually gravitates towards something they are familiar with like national chains. So of course that's what you're going to see at an airport that serves ~45 million people per year. Now, if you're going to complain about feeling claustrophobic or outdated carpeting in the airport, that's a legit complaint. Most of which will be addressed in the coming years. We all know that Jerry Orr ran this airport on the cheap for years for AA/US Airways. Now it's playing catch up.  

19 hours ago, elrodvt said:

CLT airport is also bottom half? to me. Feels really old, all chain restaurants, few device power stations or work areas. I could go on. Keep an open mind and compare it to Denver or MSP or Portland or half a dozen others in similarly sized cities. Sure LGA, JFK, BOS and many other large international airports are much worse but that doesn't mean we cannot aspire to be the best among cities our size. It sounds like you don't see those other airports though?

Never been to USO and most travelers haven't either I would guess but glad it is nice for the folks who qualify. That's only for current or former military right?

 

Edited April 10, 2017 by HopHead

[xapostrophe]

23 hours ago, caterpillar2 said:

My guess is that you haven't been to JFK, Boston, or many other numerous airports. I see nothing wrong with Charlotte. The restaurant availability is good, the concourses  are clean and certainly on par or above, and the bathrooms are clean with attendants. I don't know what bathroom you used, but it must have been after someone with bladder disease peed. What exactly are you referring to when you say "a b c leaves a lot to be desired?" Additionally, what do you mean by "one way?"  I thought that all runways were one way with a big green area in between. What are the "alley ways?"  I am just curious. I mostly travel from Clt direct to Europe and sometimes go through other places. I see nothing wrong. I think the Charlotte airport is quite nice and I absolutely love the USO which I use if there is a delay or long wait. It is know as the second best airport  USO facility in the U.S. thanks to Jerry Orr. Saying "Charlotte is awful" needs some clarification and specifics. Sounds like personal grudge or 'airport envy' to me. There are likely more desirable airports around the world but Charlotte certainly is satisfactory and overall has one of the best on-time records in the U.S. 

I'm based in CLT.   I have used probably all of the bathrooms. They stink.  They are attended but barely cared for.  They wipe everything down with the same rag, watched a guy wipe the urinals yesterday and then wipe the sinks with the same rag.

I have been to 100s of airports, there are worse, but as far as big airports like CLT its pretty awful.  The Alleyways on the ramp are terrible.    One way traffic around the top of D con. is moronic at best.   On time arrivals for E con are out the window most of the time because of landing 6 miles away on the west runway.    MIght be cheap for AA and for that I am thankful, I love the city and don't want to move.

The A/C in the airport is awful. Cold in the winter, hot in the summer.  Last summer they installed a ground A/C unit for an airplane and ran the hose/duct for it up the side of the terminal into a window (replaced by plywood) in an attempt to cool the rotunda where Whiskey River is.  It didnt work and is a great example of how not to do things. For anyone, let alone an airport.  The moving sidewalks are broken weekly, nobody knows why they cannot be maintained to work or just removed if they aren't going to be operational.  Seems like one catches fire every few years.

The carpet has to be the most annoying thing in the world to pull a suitcase over, its like pulling it through wet concrete.  Hopefully the renovations replace it with terrazzo.   The hallways are unevenly lit and generally dim, making them feel depressing.

The atrium is actually pretty cool.  Love how open it feels, could use a a coat of paint and new lighting though.

I realize that the airport is growing, but holy crap most of these projects should have began years ago and they should be fast tracked to get this airport back on track.  A decade for a new runway to go in? HOLY SMOKES.   Ramp expansion, and more or less the cheapest construction quality in E con taking years to expand? WHY?  No jet bridges on most of the gates in E? WHY????   2 years to build what amounts to an overpass in front of the terminal? WHY?  PICK UP THE PACE.

Why have the updates/terminal renovations been delayed now nearly a year?  They should be 1/3 completed by now...too little too late is going to be CLTs downfall.

By the time CLT gets the growth and expansion projects completed it'll be too late.

 

[deleted]

8 minutes ago, xapostrophe said:

They wipe everything down with the same rag, watched a guy wipe the urinals yesterday and then wipe the sinks with the same rag.

Yikes!  That is AWFUL!

Most of the rest of your observations/complaints feel accurate to me (though as someone who travels only 10 times a year, they seem a bit exaggerated from my limited perspective).  However, virtually everything you mentioned will be addressed by the renovation/expansion.  As I said previously, in 10 years this will be an above average airport (and still have the cost advantages for the airlines).

12 minutes ago, xapostrophe said:

By the time CLT gets the growth and expansion projects completed it'll be too late.

I see no reason why that will be the case.  But you are much closer to this than I am since you work at the airport.  My biggest issues are the low ceilings and inability to handle large crowds in some parts of the facility.  EVERY issue I have with the airport (except for those ceilings, which will be redone but not raised) will be addressed by already planned work.  

[CLT2014]

1 hour ago, xapostrophe said:

I realize that the airport is growing, but holy crap most of these projects should have began years ago and they should be fast tracked to get this airport back on track.  A decade for a new runway to go in? HOLY SMOKES.   Ramp expansion, and more or less the cheapest construction quality in E con taking years to expand? WHY?  No jet bridges on most of the gates in E? WHY????   2 years to build what amounts to an overpass in front of the terminal? WHY?  PICK UP THE PACE.

Why have the updates/terminal renovations been delayed now nearly a year?  They should be 1/3 completed by now...too little too late is going to be CLTs downfall.

By the time CLT gets the growth and expansion projects completed it'll be too late.

CLT has basically been run by US Airways and now American. Nothing happens without their blessing. If they wanted renovations, they would happen more quickly. The reason the terminals renovations are taking so slow is the massive headache it is going to cause American. Taking gates out of commission in order to renovate them is going to force American to reschedule their banks of connecting flights. If they lose 5 gates at a time to renovation, that means they will need to re-time the peak banks or cancel some routes temporarily. AA has been dragging their feet to do this as they do not have as many excess gates in CLT as they did in DFW during renovations there. Their schedule extension is largely the same through Q3 so don't expect any work on Concourse B/C until we see a schedule change by AA.

AA doesn't really have incentive to encourage a renovation because they aren't going to make more money once the renovations are done. In fact, they will probably temporarily increase their operating costs due to the logistical nightmare of gates being out of commission. AA know's their customers will not say "Wow, I'm going to pay $100 more to connect through Charlotte because of the nice terminals." For 98% of customers, no, they shop by price and schedule. AA already has to undercut prices connecting through Charlotte so they are cheaper than nonstops up and down the East Coast. You see AA eager to spend money to upgrade terminals in places like JFK and LAX because they face intense competition for travelers based there. At LAX, Delta, United, Virgin America, etc... are all racing to have the most "luxurious" terminal to attract first class and business travelers from one another. In Charlotte, you are either flying AA (and they know you have no other choice) or they are competing on a handful of other routes on domestic flights to another airline's hub and they just split it 50/50. 

With regards to efficiency, while the terminal layout is not ideal, the airport still manages to be one of the most on-time in the world. Of large hub airports, Charlotte ranks 11th in the entire world for % of flights on time. 82.36% of flights at CLT are on time at the gate. This is the second best of American hubs (slightly after Phoenix), and 6th best in the United States (after DL hubs of Detroit, Atlanta, Minneapolis, and Seattle, plus AA hub of Phoenix). DFW is the only other AA hub joining CLT and PHX in the Top 20 in the world, ranking 17th. 

https://www.oag.com/hubfs/Free_Reports/Punctuality_League/2016/PunctualityReport2016.pdf

Edited April 10, 2017 by CLT2014

[sclark]

Not sure if this was mentioned anywhere, but looks like the Airport area will be getting an Aloft in 2019. 

https://www.starwoodhotels.com/corporate/directory/hotels/north-america/us/nc/list.html

[elrodvt]

4 hours ago, HopHead said:

I just don't get the complaint about "chain restaurants". If you've actually been to the CLT airport at all in the last couple years, you'll know it's not just filled with national chains. 1897 Market, First in Flight, Whisky River, Bad Daddy's, etc are all places off the top of my head that are unique to the airport or region. Airport food options cater to the general traveling population, which usually gravitates towards something they are familiar with like national chains. So of course that's what you're going to see at an airport that serves ~45 million people per year. Now, if you're going to complain about feeling claustrophobic or outdated carpeting in the airport, that's a legit complaint. Most of which will be addressed in the coming years. We all know that Jerry Orr ran this airport on the cheap for years for AA/US Airways. Now it's playing catch up.  

 

Learn something new every day, i thought Whiskey River was a national chain. It just has that feel to me and I never looked it up. Big Daddys and 1897 are good. 

[NCMike1990]

3 hours ago, sclark said:

Not sure if this was mentioned anywhere, but looks like the Airport area will be getting an Aloft in 2019. 

https://www.starwoodhotels.com/corporate/directory/hotels/north-america/us/nc/list.html

I wonder if it'll be at the corner of Little Rock and Wilkinson? I remember seeing somewhere that a hotel was proposed there. I hope so cause that area could be cleaned up a little. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.2353883,-80.9434559,3a,66.8y,23h,82.38t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdO-3KVbfeRJtF0sjh8Yv8Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en-US

Edited April 10, 2017 by NCMike1990

[MountainIslandLakeResident]

On 3/30/2017 at 8:59 AM, uptownliving said:

Yeah that is the Concourse E expansion, the construction contract was approved by city council a few months ago.

They are also in the planning stages of expanding the Maintenance Hanger at CLT. Just another sign that they will be closing the hub in about a year.

 

I'm really surprised CLT is expanding the E concourse.  AA regional flights are set to decline markedly in the next twelve months and even more dramatically in the next couple of years.  Is this because AA is closing the hub?  No, it is due to two factors: pilots and planes.

Regional airlines are having a very difficult time recruiting enough pilots because of the 1,500 hour rule enacted by Congress.  Furthermore, thousands of mainline pilots are set to hit the mandatory retirement age of 65 in the next few years.  The result is that there will be a massive shortage of pilots.  Google "pilot shortage".

Second, AA released their 2017 fleet plan in January and it shows that there will be a decline of 24 regional aircraft in 2017 including 56% of Piedmont Airlines Dash turbo prop fleet.  Those turbo props arrive and depart as many as 5 times a day to places like Hilton Head and Florence.  Furthermore, after AA released its fleet plan, Air Wisconsin, which flies 66(!) 50 seat jets for AA announced that all its jets will fly for United beginning Feb 2018(10 months from now).  The new President at United, who used to work at AA, commented that poaching Air Wisconsin damages AA regional feed.  So AA is losing 90 regional aircraft in the next 10 months!

There hasn't been a 50 or 66 seat regional jet manufactured in 10 years and the airlines aren't going to buy any more.  Those planes are going to wear out. 

Does this mean CLT is doomed?  No, but it does mean that E concourse expansion and the 4th parallel runway are unnecessary.

Click on the Investor Update from Jan 27 to see the fleet plan.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=117098&p=irol-presentations

 

Edited April 11, 2017 by MountainIslandLakeResident

[skymiler]

On 4/9/2017 at 9:48 PM, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

 

I honestly wonder if you were even flying through Atlanta... I can't think of 1 terminal that is rag tag. Most don't even have carpet anymore. The international terminal is gorgeous. 

Charlotte is my hometown and I love it, but Charlotte Douglas is much more rag tag. 

I agree, ATL T, A-F concourses all much better than CLT.  Delta in general is much better than American too.  Love my hometown,  but the airport is outdated.