Drinking Beer in Charlotte

[SgtCampsalot]

Random conversation topic I had with some colleagues recently: Do craft breweries divide or self-sort (hesitant to use the word "segregate") patronage in a community by socio-economic lines, thereby translating into racial lines, due to the racial and economic make-ups of the parts of cities that are seeing the most breweries?

The Belmont neighborhood as a case-study: older women, African-American, i know don't seem to agree with this trend in their neighborhood as a whole because of the alcohol issue, and the stigma that the last few decades put on alcohol around there.

Older men and younger men/women, long-time African-American residents, that I know tend to not mind the alcohol but feel they're divisive because they are perceived as "snobby" and unwelcoming. Only catering to the one demographic: mostly white affluent who move here from out of town.

I want to round this out by saying my white family and friends who come from rural NC have the same exact grievances for the same reasons, but they don't seem to be  the communities getting the most breweries in them these days, so it doesnt seem to comw up as much.

Thoughts? Intellectual discussion? Derisive rebuttals?

Edited October 27, 2016 by SgtCampsalot

[ah59396]

2 hours ago, SgtCampsalot said:

Random conversation topic I had with some colleagues recently: Do craft breweries divide or self-sort (hesitant to use the word "segregate") patronage in a community by socio-economic lines, thereby translating into racial lines, due to the racial and economic make-ups of the parts of cities that are seeing the most breweries?

The Belmont neighborhood as a case-study: older women, African-American, i know don't seem to agree with this trend in their neighborhood as a whole because of the alcohol issue, and the stigma that the last few decades put on alcohol around there.

Older men and younger men/women, long-time African-American residents, that I know tend to not mind the alcohol but feel they're divisive because they are perceived as "snobby" and unwelcoming. Only catering to the one demographic: mostly white affluent who move here from out of town.

I want to round this out by saying my white family and friends who come from rural NC have the same exact grievances for the same reasons, but they don't seem to be  the communities getting the most breweries in them these days, so it doesnt seem to comw up as much.

Thoughts? Intellectual discussion? Derisive rebuttals?

Craft breweries don't segregate, people do.

Craft breweries sell craft beer.

[videtur quam contuor]

I think this is an excellent question that can have several answers, not one. I would feel better about the discussion if the concern, if there is one, came directly from a person you describe rather than filtered through Sgt C.

I think any successful business tries to go to where they think the customers are or will be. Would Coulwood, a long time middle class conservative neighborhood, welcome such a business? Dunno.

 

[SgtCampsalot]

1 hour ago, ah59396 said:

Craft breweries don't segregate, people do.

Craft breweries sell craft beer.

 

59 minutes ago, tarhoosier said:

I think this is an excellent question that can have several answers, not one. I would feel better about the discussion if the concern, if there is one, came directly from a person you describe rather than filtered through Sgt C.

 

True and true. 

[JRNYP2C]

6 hours ago, grodney said:

It is indeed pretty strange that of all the breweries, only 2 (OMB and Heist) truly have a full food service.  Well plus Rock Bottom of course.

I prefer it with just taprooms and no food, but maybe that's just me.

(Legal Remedy in Rock Hill has full food.  Can't really think of any others, even in surrounding counties.)

Rivermen Brewing in Belmont is patterning up with a chef from Lincolnton for their new space between the Post Office and Police Station about a block or so from downtown.  I have heard that they are supposed to open this month.

[grodney]

5 hours ago, NeverSummer said:

Sycamore has a kitchen and has done their own food.  

Yeah true, so has sugar creek, and lenny boy, and thirsty nomad, and legion (who is now bringing in roots), and others, but none of these are full service with wait staff, rather, it's just a way around ABC laws.

Bringing in Papi Queso or Roots is interesting, as is parking Twisted Eats or Tin Kitchen full time, but it's still not a brewpub. Fascinating business choices.

 

[InSouthPark]

9 hours ago, grodney said:

Bringing in Papi Queso or Roots is interesting, as is parking Twisted Eats or Tin Kitchen full time, but it's still not a brewpub. Fascinating business choices.

Yeah so true on the fascinating business choice. I travel to the "other" beer city USA (Grand Rapids, MI) often for work and most of the popular breweries up there are full service brewpub (with the exception of Founders which is walk up food service but table service for beer).  And the brewpubs don't just serve food, they serve really good food. We go to places like Perrin and Vivant specifically to eat (and grab a drink of course). And these aren't tiny operations either. Most have full production capacity to get their cans/bottles to every Mejier's in town. 

Never once have I said "I am going to Wooden Robot for dinner and a drink".  Its more of, "I'm hungry now and that's my option".  Heist is really it. Most people don't go to Olde Meck specifically to eat. Of course people do (as have I) but again it's about getting a beer and food if you are hungry, not specially for the food.

I enjoy a full service brewpub. If I am going to tip a bartender while I stand in line being ignored, I rather tip a waitress and have her get it for me. That also makes actually sitting at the bar more enjoyable rather than having it 3 deep of people ordering beers. 

[Guest]

10 hours ago, grodney said:

Yeah true, so has sugar creek, and lenny boy, and thirsty nomad, and legion (who is now bringing in roots), and others, but none of these are full service with wait staff, rather, it's just a way around ABC laws.

Bringing in Papi Queso or Roots is interesting, as is parking Twisted Eats or Tin Kitchen full time, but it's still not a brewpub. Fascinating business choices.

 

Also means they can bring in people to cater large events. Its a no brainer to have a kitchen.

[CLTProductions]

As a Cleveland native, I am very excited about this. They have really good beer and should fit right in here. 

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/biz-columns-blogs/whats-in-store/article110896097.html

[Guest]

I think I figured out the ABV/Victory/Southern Tier location, stay tuned.

[InSouthPark]

4 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

I think I figured out the ABV/Victory/Southern Tier location, stay tuned.

** Come on South Charlotte, no whammies **  I will go back to my regularly scheduled day dreaming now. 

[grodney]

52 minutes ago, InSouthPark said:

** Come on South Charlotte, no whammies **  I will go back to my regularly scheduled day dreaming now. 

Now by "South Charlotte", do you mean the Ely definition which includes Olde Providence (yes, since you are InSouthPark I would guess so), or do you mean *real* south Charlotte, which would be anything south of 485?  hahaha  Okay, maybe south of 51.

[InSouthPark]

1 minute ago, grodney said:

Now by "South Charlotte", do you mean the Ely definition which includes Olde Providence (yes, since you are InSouthPark I would guess so), or do you mean *real* south Charlotte, which would be anything south of 485?  hahaha  Okay, maybe south of 51.

I consider most anything south of Fairview "South Charlotte"!  I don't live "in" southpark anymore (still work there though) but I still live north of 51. My "true south charlotte" though is Fairview to 485.  Anything south of 485 is just plain old Ballantyne to me. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, InSouthPark said:

** Come on South Charlotte, no whammies **  I will go back to my regularly scheduled day dreaming now. 

I thinks its going to be on the heavy industrial periphery of SouthEnd

[cltbwimob]

1 hour ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

I thinks its going to be on the heavy industrial periphery of SouthEnd

Approximately how many sq ft is the building you think it's going in?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, cltbwimob said:

Approximately how many sq ft is the building you think it's going in?

200K With 27 foot ceilings for a production facility, 15k sq feet of space for a taproom, super easy access to I-77 for distribution.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Guest

[cltbwimob]

That's huge

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, cltbwimob said:

That's huge

Its really the only space in the metro that I feel could accomodate a production facility, and its suddenly no longer on the market.

[grodney]

Free Range put on the twitter last night that 32oz crowlers were on special for "only" $10.  Yikes.  Growlers (64oz) at Birdsong are $10.

I haven't seen crowler pricing at Wooden Robot yet.

[InSouthPark]

On 11/5/2016 at 9:39 AM, grodney said:

I haven't seen crowler pricing at Wooden Robot yet.

$10/$12/$15 depending on the tier. 

I don't think $10 for two full pints sealed and ready to go is a big deal.  The can itself cost around 80 cents and a new crowler machine itself costs upwards of $7000. 

[wilmore]

1 hour ago, InSouthPark said:

$10/$12/$15 depending on the tier. 

I don't think $10 for two full pints sealed and ready to go is a big deal.  The can itself cost around 80 cents and a new crowler machine itself costs upwards of $7000. 

I'd pay $15 for a crowler of that cherry sour - it definitely doesn't take the place of actual can distribution (so for Birdsong), but it's nice to have the option. 

[11 HouseBZ]

Sgt C, I wanted to attempt to answer your question above to the best of my experience because I felt that it was a too a good question to fade away so quickly. 

 

I agree with ah59396 that it's not the breweries, but the some of people that sometimes go that's the problem. Breweries are being built in or near black neighborhoods as any other type neighbourhood. Heist's 2nd location in Druid Hills/ Double Oaks, NoDa's new location just north of Tryon Hills/Graham Heights, Catawba's new location in Belmont, Blue Blaze, etc. Snobbish people that you've noticed don't give an "everybody's welcomed vibe" to breweries even when the staff of those breweries do. From mine and my family/friends experience that translates into not wanting to be around those people. My wife and I, for the most part, enjoy the brewery scene. And when we encounter the above, we can typically deal with it, but some POC don't and avoid it. 

 

Also, in general, blacks tend to lean more towards liquor than beer, at least they do in my family/circle of friends. My immediate family are the only ones that drink beer. So to the rest of my family, a brewery is pointless for them to visit (we've tried to get them to go). We do have a few friends though that are beer geeks. Some are older (40s to 60s) but most are of the younger crowd (20s to 30s) that are getting into beer.

 

I thought it interesting you brought up the older women, because it was the same with my grandmother. Her dislike of alcohol stemmed from my grandfather's alcoholism, a common scene from many poor neighborhoods. Being like most older black women she was very religious. Which meant to her that all alcohol was bad and she passed that view on to her 10 kids. Not all but most would not like a brewery near by based on the stigma alcohol has for some in poor neighborhoods. That crowd has gotten fewer and fewer because of the growth in interest for beer. The breweries though aren't promoted in all communities the same. So they don't reach as many in the black community as others. That coupled with all the above is why, in my experience, there are fewer blacks at breweries. Not because breweries are targeting a non- black crowd. 

 

Disclaimer: my wife and I are POC. This is a very limited scope of the world, it's only my experience. I hope this helps answer some of what you were getting at. If not, ignore. Cheers. 

[cjd5050]

On 10/27/2016 at 5:10 PM, SgtCampsalot said:

Random conversation topic I had with some colleagues recently: Do craft breweries divide or self-sort (hesitant to use the word "segregate") patronage in a community by socio-economic lines, thereby translating into racial lines, due to the racial and economic make-ups of the parts of cities that are seeing the most breweries?

The Belmont neighborhood as a case-study: older women, African-American, i know don't seem to agree with this trend in their neighborhood as a whole because of the alcohol issue, and the stigma that the last few decades put on alcohol around there.

Older men and younger men/women, long-time African-American residents, that I know tend to not mind the alcohol but feel they're divisive because they are perceived as "snobby" and unwelcoming. Only catering to the one demographic: mostly white affluent who move here from out of town.

I want to round this out by saying my white family and friends who come from rural NC have the same exact grievances for the same reasons, but they don't seem to be  the communities getting the most breweries in them these days, so it doesnt seem to comw up as much.

Thoughts? Intellectual discussion? Derisive rebuttals?

I am not sure you're giving enough thought to the operational considerations of breweries and possibly placing too much consideration on other theories.   

Breweries, unlike bars or tasting rooms, need to be located in industrial type buildings due to the manufacturing element of their business. Brewing takes up space.  Added to this, Breweries, unlike traditional manufacturing, are best located near some residential due to the need for patron traffic.  

The above combination, without prejudice, boxes breweries into specific neighborhoods.  These neighborhoods in Charlotte tend to be African-American.  By comparison, in San Diego many breweries are located in Mira Mesa, which has a high Asian-American community.  San Diego is about 10 years ahead and breweries have migrated to other parts of the city like North Park...which are mostly populated by Millennials or 'Hipsters' but this only happened after the overall economics of the beer community evolved.  

I also think the beer community is both welcoming and snobby at the same time.  

To many, drinking craft beer is much more than drinking at a bar.  Those who don't share the same sentiment are exiled to an extent. I am talking about the person who demands a bud light or cheap draft at a craft bar.  The reaction you get would be similar to going to a jazz club asking for the house band to play a cover song or going to a sushi bar and asking for fried fish dinner.    But if you try to embrace the 'beer culture' and approach drinking craft beer from a perspective of enjoying something crafted by skilled artists who take pride in what they do...then the experience you will find is blind to any socioeconomic background.

[jwntim]

1 hour ago, cjd5050 said:

I am not sure you're giving enough thought to the operational considerations of breweries and possibly placing too much consideration on other theories.   

Breweries, unlike bars or tasting rooms, need to be located in industrial type buildings due to the manufacturing element of their business. Brewing takes up space.  Added to this, Breweries, unlike traditional manufacturing, are best located near some residential due to the need for patron traffic.  

The above combination, without prejudice, boxes breweries into specific neighborhoods.  These neighborhoods in Charlotte tend to be African-American.  By comparison, in San Diego many breweries are located in Mira Mesa, which has a high Asian-American community.  San Diego is about 10 years ahead and breweries have migrated to other parts of the city like North Park...which are mostly populated by Millennials or 'Hipsters' but this only happened after the overall economics of the beer community evolved.  

I also think the beer community is both welcoming and snobby at the same time.  

To many, drinking craft beer is much more than drinking at a bar.  Those who don't share the same sentiment are exiled to an extent. I am talking about the person who demands a bud light or cheap draft at a craft bar.  The reaction you get would be similar to going to a jazz club asking for the house band to play a cover song or going to a sushi bar and asking for fried fish dinner.    But if you try to embrace the 'beer culture' and approach drinking craft beer from a perspective of enjoying something crafted by skilled artists who take pride in what they do...then the experience you will find is blind to any socioeconomic background.

In addition, the people who have enough disposable income to be able to spend $5+ on a single beer are extremely unlikely to be poor. So even if they are residents of the neighborhood where a brewery is located, poor people simply can't afford to go. You can get bud light for $0.50 a can or even craft brews for $1.50 at the grocery store.

People of color are more likely to be poor so there are less of them at breweries just like there are less people of color at any upscale place where cheaper alternatives exist. 

http://www.city-data.com/poverty/poverty-Charlotte-North-Carolina.html

 

[SgtCampsalot]

6 hours ago, cjd5050 said:

I am not sure you're giving enough thought to the operational considerations of breweries and possibly placing too much consideration on other theories.   

Breweries, unlike bars or tasting rooms, need to be located in industrial type buildings due to the manufacturing element of their business. Brewing takes up space.  Added to this, Breweries, unlike traditional manufacturing, are best located near some residential due to the need for patron traffic.  

The above combination, without prejudice, boxes breweries into specific neighborhoods.  These neighborhoods in Charlotte tend to be African-American.  By comparison, in San Diego many breweries are located in Mira Mesa, which has a high Asian-American community.  San Diego is about 10 years ahead and breweries have migrated to other parts of the city like North Park...which are mostly populated by Millennials or 'Hipsters' but this only happened after the overall economics of the beer community evolved.  

I also think the beer community is both welcoming and snobby at the same time.  

To many, drinking craft beer is much more than drinking at a bar.  Those who don't share the same sentiment are exiled to an extent. I am talking about the person who demands a bud light or cheap draft at a craft bar.  The reaction you get would be similar to going to a jazz club asking for the house band to play a cover song or going to a sushi bar and asking for fried fish dinner.    But if you try to embrace the 'beer culture' and approach drinking craft beer from a perspective of enjoying something crafted by skilled artists who take pride in what they do...then the experience you will find is blind to any socioeconomic background.

I hear you. I appreciate your nuanced response. I guess I was more just trying to wax philosophical and/or pragmatic on just the culture-clash realities that are at play in these areas, regardless of the overall trend of Craft beer and breweries in general. I live in these areas and am trying to reconcile my own preferences/interests with the fact that I'm coming into a neighborhood and culture that existed long before I arrived. So breweries play a relevant part in that equation.

EDIT: ^^jwntim, very interesting/valid analysis.

I guess the truth of the matter is somewhere in between, and the question is where do we find the common ground? These businesses will be what they are, and there are other businesses that can be something else.

Edited November 10, 2016 by SgtCampsalot