Traffic Congestion, Road Construction, & Improvement Projects

[vicupstate]

59 minutes ago, vistatiger said:

Not the first time at the rodeo  The extra penny sales tax has been voted down more than once in Greenville county. I will be shocked if it passes this time especially with the rising cost of living/ inflation.

Only once that I remember. A two year tax for recreation that failed 47-53, IIRC.  That was at least 10-14 years ago, I want to say. 

 

Back in 1990 all counties voted on the 'original' Lost Option Sales Tax' which uses sales taxes to reduce property taxes.  Only Charleston and a few small counties passed it that year.  More than half of all counties have it now though. Not exactly the same as what this would be.   

[distortedlogic]

48 minutes ago, SVL said:

I did a quick search and found the average American uses somewhere in between 600-800 gallons of gas each year.  Sounds right to me.  If we use those numbers, we would each get taxed about $6-8 a year.   That's a good trade to get better roads and infrastructure. We get a lot of out of county folks coming here everyday for work and play that would probably fill up and contribute also. I hope it happens. 

I would guess it's more the principle of it. The state gas tax has gone up incrementally in recent years and that was supposed to "fix" the roads, but now they want more. After awhile people start to doubt and question the ever open hand. People want to see the progress of what they are already giving. There is a bridge near me that has been out for a couple of years now and there seems to have been no progress for months. Wasn't the state tax supposed to help with that kind of stuff? It shouldn't take months of idleness to finish a bridge; it should be completed in a few weeks at most. Is a one cent tax going to fix that? If the state increases over the past few years did not work I doubt a penny tax will either so what's the point? If the average Greenville county driver will only pay $6-8 a year, how much will that raise; a couple million dollars? That won't even buy a stop sign these days. I don't know what the answers are but I'm not sure another tax is the best one. And maybe if groceries had not gone up 50% over the past 4 years and many goods and services had not doubled people would be more open to that sort of thing.

[gman430]

36 minutes ago, distortedlogic said:

I would guess it's more the principle of it. The state gas tax has gone up incrementally in recent years and that was supposed to "fix" the roads, but now they want more. After awhile people start to doubt and question the ever open hand. People want to see the progress of what they are already giving. There is a bridge near me that has been out for a couple of years now and there seems to have been no progress for months. Wasn't the state tax supposed to help with that kind of stuff? It shouldn't take months of idleness to finish a bridge; it should be completed in a few weeks at most. Is a one cent tax going to fix that? If the state increases over the past few years did not work I doubt a penny tax will either so what's the point? If the average Greenville county driver will only pay $6-8 a year, how much will that raise; a couple million dollars? That won't even buy a stop sign these days. I don't know what the answers are but I'm not sure another tax is the best one. And maybe if groceries had not gone up 50% over the past 4 years and many goods and services had not doubled people would be more open to that sort of thing.

Remember that groceries, pharmaceuticals, and gas would not be included in this proposed penny sales tax. The proposed tax is slated to raise $131 million annually. The state having one of the lowest gas taxes in the nation until recently caused a lot of projects that should have gotten done to get deferred due to the lack of funding. Gonna take a while for the state to catch up to the backlog and even longer without this extra funding. 
 

In early 2024, Greenville County staff engaged SCDOT and the mayors and administrators of the six municipalities to develop a list of high-priority intersection, safety, corridor, and resurfacing projects within their respective jurisdictions.

This map is the result of this collaborative effort: https://gcscgis.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Embed/index.html?webmap=1910c37dca7d437eb8f38eba0f927168&extent=-83.4666,34.3528,-81.4382,35.312&home=true&zoom=true&previewImage=true&scale=true&search=true&searchextent=true&details=true&legend=true&active_panel=legend&basemap_toggle=true&alt_basemap=topo&disable_scroll=true&theme=dark

It shows potential bridge (blue star), intersection (gold star), corridor (blue and gold lines), and resurfacing (red line) projects across Greenville County. (Note: this map only shows the highest priority resurfacing projects.) These projects would address some of the most dangerous roads and intersections in the county as well as major traffic bottlenecks and deficient bridges.

While all of these projects are important to the safety and welfare of our community, none of them are currently funded. Without an alternate funding source for transportation improvements, few, if any, of these projects are likely to be funded in the foreseeable future.

Edited February 23 by gman430

[GVLer]

I hate paying taxes, but the vast majority of the road surfaces in the State need repaving. SC has to have the worst roads of any State along the Eastern seaboard. 

[distortedlogic]

1 hour ago, gman430 said:

Remember that groceries, pharmaceuticals, and gas would not be included in this proposed penny sales tax. The proposed tax is slated to raise $131 million annually. The state having one of the lowest gas taxes in the nation until recently caused a lot of projects that should have gotten done to get deferred due to the lack of funding. Gonna take a while for the state to catch up to the backlog and even longer without this extra funding. 
 

In early 2024, Greenville County staff engaged SCDOT and the mayors and administrators of the six municipalities to develop a list of high-priority intersection, safety, corridor, and resurfacing projects within their respective jurisdictions.

This map is the result of this collaborative effort: https://gcscgis.maps.arcgis.com/apps/Embed/index.html?webmap=1910c37dca7d437eb8f38eba0f927168&extent=-83.4666,34.3528,-81.4382,35.312&home=true&zoom=true&previewImage=true&scale=true&search=true&searchextent=true&details=true&legend=true&active_panel=legend&basemap_toggle=true&alt_basemap=topo&disable_scroll=true&theme=dark

It shows potential bridge (blue star), intersection (gold star), corridor (blue and gold lines), and resurfacing (red line) projects across Greenville County. (Note: this map only shows the highest priority resurfacing projects.) These projects would address some of the most dangerous roads and intersections in the county as well as major traffic bottlenecks and deficient bridges.

While all of these projects are important to the safety and welfare of our community, none of them are currently funded. Without an alternate funding source for transportation improvements, few, if any, of these projects are likely to be funded in the foreseeable future.

I'm aware the tax won't be on groceries but the point is people have already had to absorb the increases of all that, not to mention the incremental gas tax increase and the gas price itself.

I have no idea where the 131MM figure comes from but somebody's math is off. If there are maybe 450k drivers in Greenville county and they will have to pay $6-8 dollars per year for increased taxes that would work out to about 3MM per year, not 131MM. There aren't nearly enough tourists and passersby to make up the rest, are you sure that 131MM is not something else?

I totally get that there is a backlog of projects but residents can only do so much, especially when what they already pay has little transparency.  Finishing a bridge in reasonable time would be a good start. As many have said before, lets truly look at management of existing funds and eliminating waste, then if it's not enough people will likely be more open.

17 minutes ago, GVLer said:

I hate paying taxes, but the vast majority of the road surfaces in the State need repaving. SC has to have the worst roads of any State along the Eastern seaboard. 

Work needs to be done but EVERYONE in EVERY state says this. I really don' think they are worse than  any other state, you're just more familiar with them.

[gman430]

This article says $131 million annually: 

https://www.wyff4.com/article/greenville-county-penny-tax-november-ballot-roads/46874940

 
 

The roads here continue to get worse and worse every year which hurts quality of life and economic development. If it does go on the ballot in November I will be voting yes for sure. I don’t see how paying $7.01 for a Starbuck’s Mocha whatever would be a problem when paying $7.00 for the same drink currently isn’t. 

Edited February 23 by gman430

[vistatiger]

5 hours ago, vicupstate said:

Only once that I remember. A two year tax for recreation that failed 47-53, IIRC.  That was at least 10-14 years ago, I want to say. 

 

Back in 1990 all counties voted on the 'original' Lost Option Sales Tax' which uses sales taxes to reduce property taxes.  Only Charleston and a few small counties passed it that year.  More than half of all counties have it now though. Not exactly the same as what this would be.   

It was in 2014 and it was for roads.  I seem to remember  one prior to that also failed and I think you are correct that particular one was  for recreation.  

https://www.wyff4.com/article/greenville-county-voters-reject-penny-sales-tax-increase/6775815

I guess we will see but I'm  just not sure families will have the appetite for it with the high price of everything including housing/rent, and grocery.  Everything is much more expensive than 10 years ago.

Edited February 23 by vistatiger

[distortedlogic]

46 minutes ago, gman430 said:

This article says $131 million annually: 

https://www.wyff4.com/article/greenville-county-penny-tax-november-ballot-roads/46874940

 
 

The roads here continue to get worse and worse every year which hurts quality of life and economic development. If it does go on the ballot in November I will be voting yes for sure. I don’t see how paying $7.01 for a Starbuck’s Mocha whatever would be a problem when paying $7.00 for the same drink currently isn’t. 

Ah, ok; here it says

"Officials said the tax could add a penny to every purchase except for groceries, pharmaceuticals and gasoline. In total, county officials said it could add $131 million annually. "

So it's basically a penny sales tax for anything, not a penny gas tax (excludes these). I thought it was just for gas so that wouldn't raise very much money.

I get the need, I just think there needs to be better transparency and accountability with the DOT.

 

Just some very rough estimates here; per the article about 1/3 of the money would come from out of county residents so about 85MM of the 131 would come from Gville county residents. If there are about 450k adults (exclude kids) who spend money those 450k people will cover the 85MM. That's almost $200 per year per resident. I just don't think people will support that when many are already having a hard time just going to the grocery store every week. Maybe I'm wrong, but again, a lot of this is the principle.

 

Maybe tax hotel rooms and tourist attractions more?

Edited February 23 by distortedlogic

[gman430]

Backlog is $3 billion: 

https://greenvillejournal.com/community/greenville-county-weighs-how-to-pay-for-3b-road-maintenance-backlog/
 

80 potholes on this one stretch of road…yeesh: 

https://www.foxcarolina.com/2024/02/23/getting-answers-dunklin-bridge-rd/

 

I could see a hotel tax working out if the penny one doesn’t. Not sure why Greenville County residents have such an issue with passing one though when literally the residents in every other county in the state have. If I recall correctly, there are only three counties in the state without a penny sales tax for roads and Greenville is one of them. 

Edited February 23 by gman430

[vicupstate]

3 hours ago, gman430 said:

Backlog is $3 billion: 

https://greenvillejournal.com/community/greenville-county-weighs-how-to-pay-for-3b-road-maintenance-backlog/
 

80 potholes on this one stretch of road…yeesh: 

https://www.foxcarolina.com/2024/02/23/getting-answers-dunklin-bridge-rd/

 

I could see a hotel tax working out if the penny one doesn’t. Not sure why Greenville County residents have such an issue with passing one though when literally the residents in every other county in the state have. If I recall correctly, there are only three counties in the state without a penny sales tax for roads and Greenville is one of them. 

Hotel taxes can't be used for roads, only to promote or develop/support tourism.  Only three counties don't pay at LEAST one extra penny in sales taxes (Greenville, Oconee, Georgetown) but there are different types and some of them pay for school construction  or other government projects. Spartanburg's penny pays for the new courthouse and other yet to be built government buildings. 

 

Sales Taxes by County in SC  

[motonenterprises]

Until they provide transparency of where the extra money has gone I'll be voting a big fat no on this. I'm tired of this taxing just because they can, but they never show you where it goes. Probably their personal bank accounts.

[gman430]

42 minutes ago, motonenterprises said:

Until they provide transparency of where the extra money has gone I'll be voting a big fat no on this. I'm tired of this taxing just because they can, but they never show you where it goes. Probably their personal bank accounts.

It’s right on the front page of the SCDOT’s website. Come on man: https://www.scdot.org/inside/new-gastax-trustfund.aspx

Gas tax project list from that link: https://www.scdot.org/inside/pdf/trustfund/New Gas Tax Fund Project List -January 2024.pdf

And if you’re looking for even more transparency: https://www.scdot.org/performance/performance-reports.aspx

 

 

Edited February 23 by gman430

[SVL]

15 hours ago, gman430 said:

Groceries, pharmaceuticals, and gas would not be included in this tax. 

My bad, I guess I was just remembering the last penny tax that was proposed.  I still prefer this style of tax, small amounts, instead of larger sums. 

[ingvegas]

The problem tax payers have is (1) they don't know exactly where the money will go and (2) who will make sure it goes there. Tax payers will suffer for road deterioration because nobody believes in politicians. They vast majority believes "government is always bad." 

If  Greenville County wants any chance of passing this then:

1) they need to provide a detailed, easy to find, and easy to understand, statement about funding and what the money will do.  Basically, a single website, highly publicized, that a fourth grader can understand.

2) they need to publicize that an outside independent auditor will account for the money coming in, and where it's going, on a quarterly basis. Otherwise, voters will believe the money will be wasted on fancy cop cars and other pork.

Public education followed by public accountability. It's basic good government. 

 

[distortedlogic]

10 hours ago, gman430 said:

Backlog is $3 billion: 

https://greenvillejournal.com/community/greenville-county-weighs-how-to-pay-for-3b-road-maintenance-backlog/
 

80 potholes on this one stretch of road…yeesh: 

https://www.foxcarolina.com/2024/02/23/getting-answers-dunklin-bridge-rd/

 

I could see a hotel tax working out if the penny one doesn’t. Not sure why Greenville County residents have such an issue with passing one though when literally the residents in every other county in the state have. If I recall correctly, there are only three counties in the state without a penny sales tax for roads and Greenville is one of them. 

3 billion is a lot but I just don't see people going for it. What is the current sales tax in Greenville County? I am in Pickens county where it is 7 or 8%, which is already high. If they put one up for vote here I would not want to increase the cost of things more. You can only nickle and dime people so much. I feel like the transportation system, much like the health system is broken. It shouldn't cost thousands of dollars to put someone in an ambulance and drive them a few miles to to a hospital when they need it. Similarly,  it shouldn't cost "x" millions of dollars to repave a road or fix potholes. It shouldn't take years to replace a small country bridge. Just taxing residents more is not the answer. I don't know what the answer is but I don't think another tax is it . I would start with a complete audit and overhaul of the DOT and then figure out why the construction companies seem to be so inefficient. 

Edited February 23 by distortedlogic

[vistatiger]

2 minutes ago, distortedlogic said:

3 billion is a lot but I just don't see people going for it. What is the current sales tax in Greenville County? I am in Pickens county where it is 7 or 8%, which is already high. If they put one up for vote here I would not want to increase the cost of things more. You can only nickle and dime people so much. I feel like the transportation system, much like the health system is broken. It shouldn't cost thousands of dollars to put someone in an ambulance and drive them a few miles to to a hospital when they need it. It should cost "x" millions of dollars to repave a road or fix potholes. It shouldn't take years to replace a small country bridge. Just taxing residents more is not the answer. I don't know what the answer is but I don't think another tax is it . I would start with a complete audit and overhaul of the DOT and then figure out why the construction companies seem to be so inefficient. 

It's still  6%  state sales tax in Greenville county. The extra local option sales tax has been voted down multiple times in this county yet the politicians still haven't gotten the message.  

[motonenterprises]

4 hours ago, gman430 said:

It’s right on the front page of the SCDOT’s website. Come on man: https://www.scdot.org/inside/new-gastax-trustfund.aspx

Gas tax project list from that link: https://www.scdot.org/inside/pdf/trustfund/New Gas Tax Fund Project List -January 2024.pdf

And if you’re looking for even more transparency: https://www.scdot.org/performance/performance-reports.aspx

 

 

They aren't telling jack in those things. We need to see the books detailing where every dime was spent. I see little difference. Where are the improvements? I don't trust politicians or government. You're a fool if you believe everything they tell you "man".

[gman430]

40 minutes ago, distortedlogic said:

3 billion is a lot but I just don't see people going for it. What is the current sales tax in Greenville County? I am in Pickens county where it is 7 or 8%, which is already high. If they put one up for vote here I would not want to increase the cost of things more. You can only nickle and dime people so much. I feel like the transportation system, much like the health system is broken. It shouldn't cost thousands of dollars to put someone in an ambulance and drive them a few miles to to a hospital when they need it. Similarly,  it shouldn't cost "x" millions of dollars to repave a road or fix potholes. It shouldn't take years to replace a small country bridge. Just taxing residents more is not the answer. I don't know what the answer is but I don't think another tax is it . I would start with a complete audit and overhaul of the DOT and then figure out why the construction companies seem to be so inefficient. 

It’s 6% in Greenville County. Pickens County also has a penny sales tax. Oh and I agree the entire system is broken but what can you do? Nobody in our legislature wants to fix it. I do like your idea of a hotel tax though. I don’t understand why money from one can’t be used for road projects. Why hasn’t a single person in our legislature come up with a bill to change this law? Yeesh.

[bikeoid]

19 hours ago, motonenterprises said:

They aren't telling jack in those things. We need to see the books detailing where every dime was spent. I see little difference. Where are the improvements? I don't trust politicians or government. You're a fool if you believe everything they tell you "man".

Are you saying that the entries such as "US 25 Hwy 25N  4.670 miles $320,618  92% complete"  is not specific enough because it doesn't have GPS coordinates?

[gman430]

2 hours ago, bikeoid said:

Are you saying that the entries such as "US 25 Hwy 25N  4.670 miles $320,618  92% complete"  is not specific enough because it doesn't have GPS coordinates?

Don’t come in here trying to make sense. He’s one of those people that thinks everything is a  conspiracy theory. The pdf file I posted clearly shows how much money has come in and where it’s all going. If that isn’t good enough for him then I don’t know what to say. 

 

Edited February 24 by gman430

[motonenterprises]

7 hours ago, bikeoid said:

Are you saying that the entries such as "US 25 Hwy 25N  4.670 miles $320,618  92% complete"  is not specific enough because it doesn't have GPS coordinates?

I'm saying I don't trust them. They lie. Roads aren't great around here. 

[motonenterprises]

5 hours ago, gman430 said:

Don’t come in here trying to make sense. He’s one of those people that thinks everything is a  conspiracy theory. The pdf file I posted clearly shows how much money has come in and where it’s all going. If that isn’t good enough for him then I don’t know what to say. 

 

At least I'm not a negative whiner who blindly believes everything he reads or hears, while playing my life out online. Hey you went there. I can get dirty too. Do you want to go that route? Let's go.

[gman430]

8 hours ago, motonenterprises said:

At least I'm not a negative whiner who blindly believes everything he reads or hears, while playing my life out online. Hey you went there. I can get dirty too. Do you want to go that route? Let's go.

At least I don’t live in the arm pit of SC that is Columbia. The lack of posts on that sub forum proves how sorry that place has become. Even the forum members have moved to other cities. No new air service in decades either. Should just give it to Russia honestly. Nobody would miss it. Greenville and Charleston reign.

Go ahead and tell me how I am wrong @Spartan and @krazeeboi. LOL. Columbia is a JOKE.

Edited February 25 by gman430

[Galley]

On 2/22/2024 at 4:28 PM, SVL said:

I did a quick search and found the average American uses somewhere in between 600-800 gallons of gas each year.  Sounds right to me.  If we use those numbers, we would each get taxed about $6-8 a year.   That's a good trade to get better roads and infrastructure. We get a lot of out of county folks coming here everyday for work and play that would probably fill up and contribute also. I hope it happens. 

Apparently, I am the outlier.  I only use 140 gallons per year.

[motonenterprises]

12 hours ago, gman430 said:

At least I don’t live in the arm pit of SC that is Columbia. The lack of posts on that sub forum proves how sorry that place has become. Even the forum members have moved to other cities. No new air service in decades either. Should just give it to Russia honestly. Nobody would miss it. Greenville and Charleston reign.

Go ahead and tell me how I am wrong @Spartan and @krazeeboi. LOL. Columbia is a JOKE.

What are you doing? We're having a small fight. You can't invite them. Okay. So I'll accept your information you shared. But I still don't trust government or politicians.