Cap over Belk Freeway (277)

[davidclt]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

So Seattle essentially put a cap over the Alaskan Way Viaduct a few years ago (they built a tunnel for it). Turns out they should have just removed it. Toll revenue and traffic are running way below expectations, the tunnel is going to need a bailout, so non drivers are going to end up paying for this boondoggle.

Removing the Belk (not capping) is the fiscally prudent thing to do.

https://www.theurbanist.org/2022/07/22/sr-99-tunnel-is-bleeding-money-as-toll-revenue-forecasts-plunge/

The Alaskan Way Viaduct was one of my favorite Seattle drives until it got north of the Aurora Bridge (then it feels like Independence Blvd.) That said, they shouldn't have built the tunnel when the decommissioned the AWV.

[JRCLT]

Why hasn’t anyone thought of this! It’s genius! I haven’t seen anyone say this before. TURN I-277 INTO A RACE TRACK FOR NASCAR!!

Lol.

[Reverie39]

If that were somehow possible it would be the biggest tourist attraction in the Carolinas 

[videtur quam contuor]

I was in NYC this week and taxi driver from LGA asked me about Billy Graham Library. "Is it nice? I hear it is worth a visit" He was a long time NYC taxi driver so not a NC transplant.

[Madison Parkitect]

On 7/22/2022 at 5:07 PM, davidclt said:

The Alaskan Way Viaduct was one of my favorite Seattle drives until it got north of the Aurora Bridge (then it feels like Independence Blvd.) That said, they shouldn't have built the tunnel when the decommissioned the AWV.

Building that tunnel was the biggest mistake Seattle has made in a long, long time. And they then just put a surface highway on top of it. 

[kermit]

[JRCLT]

http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2022_07/C7786746-965E-4335-8F09-97B999A4D280.jpeg.d593f18d95293ba46cd53709237cc423.jpeg

With how much rain we get shouldn’t take long to flood-

[kermit]

Turning I-20 in Atlanta into a river! Smart move.

I would like to think urbanplanet Charlotte posters have kickstarted a new post-auto propaganda strategy.

Edited August 6, 2022 by kermit

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

4 hours ago, kermit said:

Turning I-20 in Atlanta into a river! Smart move.

I would like to think urbanplanet Charlotte posters have kickstarted a new post-auto urbanization strategy.

This is FAKE NEWS

[kermit]

9 hours ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

This is FAKE NEWS

Yes it is, in the same way that “make 277 a river” is fake news.

But just like the 277 river talk, the I-20 removal thought-bubble did get some people to imagine the possibilities of reducing auto dependence in Atlanta (of all places).

You can’t begin to make change until you can get people to imagine the positive impact of that change. Auto reliance is so embedded in most people’s psyches that you gotta take some radical steps to get people to even think about it. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by kermit

[JRCLT]

“Belk Fwy River” Topic: merely an exaggeration to emphasize what it could be and what it really acts like (Channel for cars). 277 acts like a river without the- you know… the natural beauty and benefits rivers have similarly to parks other than ~maybe saving most drivers getting to/around uptown a few to 0 minutes depending on their route. (A response to another poster).



Removing that section and replacing it with anything except with what currently is will be much more beneficial to residents that live around it and those that will visit (not just tourist but literally anyone who goes uptown/Center city). In red I just outlined several entry points into uptown solely from the interstates and highways despite the removal. That is aside from the numerous city streets that you could enter uptown through.

Several ideas with what could replace or add on to in the case of a Cap along with some thoughts on those ideas from what I’ve heard from others along with some of my own thoughts. Replacing 277 with:

Capping: putting a park over the highway. Probably the least intrusive in the fwy simply because it isn’t removed. Definitely a bandaid on a deep gaping wound metaphorically. Still better for connecting the uptown and southend and provided park space.

A Linear Park: a step bigger from capping. A larger step actually. Literally removing the freeway. Charlotte needs more parks and recreational areas especially in this zone that is getting a lot of residential development right now and southend also lacking parks.

Boulevard: an actual good one with space for all forms of mobility and narrow street design so is easy to cross for pedestrian. Also helps slow down traffic because speeding in non freeway areas end up more likely in collisions and most importantly end up in high pedestrian/bike rider accidents with high mortality.

Reconnecting the grid: I’ve seen this one too where it could open up a lot of land to development and connect uptown directly to its surrounding inner city neighborhoods. Would also improve the walkability as development takes place and closes the gap.

Lastly, the Moat: very ambitious and way out there, but that’s the point. Simply a way to draw attention to the cause. This is certainly not a meant to be realistic, again, just a concept to emphasize the need to remove the Fwy in place of something that will serve the surrounding communities better than 277. Not impossible of course many reservoirs have been build and retention ponds. (Albeit on a smaller scale of course) there is not natural creek that flows where Belk Fwy runs through so it would be artificial for the most part but with the amount of rain we get wouldn’t be too hard at a glance.

Could be more detailed but I think the idea should be getting across by now. Certainly any combination of these options would also work. Design doesn’t have to be rigid. Combinations can be formed to adjust better to constraints in certain areas. (Except maybe the moat)

This is a bit crude so anyone can feel free to add on to this.

[15895]

Honestly, There is no cap that will be that good or do much IMO. I've yet to see smaller scale (like a block or 2) interstate caps that were anything but a meh park. Bridges on the other hand have been more active and cooler and people seem more interested in frequenting them. There is one I can't find from like the 2008 era where it was a giant circular pedestrian bridge that looked like it had four columns around the circle that looked like giant flames. It was very Olympic looking.

Other ones seems nice:

 

Charlotte would likely get a Freeway cap like the below but a bit nicer. Probably wont get anything you'd see in an Amsterdam or some of the largest liberal US cities that people share on twitter that advocate for caps that would be more decent. But pedestrian bridges on the other hand, I think Charlotte can get a dope cool one. The benefits of high cost areas is you get cooler toys. Jack the taxes, get a moat and more light rail lines. Otherwise, dope bridges at a fraction of the cost'll do.

 

 

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[kermit]

26 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Charlotte would likely get a Freeway cap like the below but a bit nicer. Probably wont get anything you'd see in an Amsterdam or some of the largest liberal US cities that people share on twitter that advocate for caps that would be more decent. But pedestrian bridges on the other hand, I think Charlotte can get a dope cool one. The benefits of high cost areas is you get cooler toys. Jack the taxes, get a moat and more light rail lines. Otherwise, dope bridges at a fraction of the cost'll do.

The downside of bridges is that, when running over 277, they will never be pleasant places to be. The noise from the highway is awfully loud (especially during informal race time) and its a lousy place to be breathing if you have asthma. So while bridges might make it marginally safer to walk across, those spaces will just be locations that people want to leave as quickly as possible (unlike some really nice pedestrian bridges over rivers in Chattanooga, Nashville or Greenville SC.)

Edited August 8, 2022 by kermit

[15895]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

The downside of bridges is that, when running over 277, they will never be pleasant places to be. The noise from the highway is awfully loud and its a lousy place to be breathing if you have asthma. So while bridges might make it safer to walk across, those spaces will just be locations that people want to leave as quickly as possible (unlike some really nice pedestrian bridges in Chattanooga, Nashville or Greenville SC.)

I agree for the most part, but I don't see a game changing or even that pleasant of a cap Charlotte would build. Maybe the best option would be to just completely decommission that portion of 277 (in purple) and make it a boulevard instead (raised up level to the rest of the streets). And no caps.

Though with over 100,000 workers and special events, can the remaining portions of 277 handle that volume of people coming in?

Edited August 8, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[kermit]

22 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I agree for the most part, but I don't see a game changing or even that pleasant of a cap Charlotte would build. Maybe the best option would be to just completely decommission that portion of 277 (in purple) and make it a boulevard instead (raised up level to the rest of the streets). And no caps.

Though with over 100,000 workers and special events, can the remaining portions of 277 handle that volume of people coming in!

I agree that the noise and air quality issues exist with realistic caps as well.

As for road capacity, yea we have plenty -- the surface grid is very robust. Particularly with the Silver Line, a few more uptown hotels and hybrid work. Looking at traffic today suggests that Southend is the bottleneck these days, and I think 277 arguably makes that situation worse.

Edited August 9, 2022 by kermit

[abttown]

If part of 277 was decommissioned, I think a section of the interstate (maybe nearest the Ally development between Tryon and College) could be turned into a pretty cool skate park.  The topography of that area could be utilized in such a way that could make for an awesome park for skaters, cyclists, etc.  That area with the steep hillsides sort of reminds me of the LA river basin.

[kermit]

The Philadelphia Fed just posted a working paper on the quality of life impacts of freeways. The authors find that, in general, freeways have a negative impact on quality of life on intown neighbrohoods (due to barrier effects and noise) while they have positive impacts on outlying hoods (due to access advantages). They find that the quantified quality of life benefits of capping generally exceed the cost of a cap.

As best I can tell from my skim of the paper, they are mostly concerned with barrier effects, so they assumed capping to have the same amenity benefits as removal (which, IMO is an inappropriate assumption due to air quality, noise and construction expense). In addition, I do not believe they considered the real estate aspects of capping or removal (they did not model any new property value or increases in adjacent property values).

Despite the shortcomings here its nice to see that freeway disamenities are now on the radar of Fed economists.

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by kermit

[Third Strike]

Interesting video on how and why Boston’s “Big Dig” tunnel failed and how it impacted Boston’s transit system. Removing downtown highways altogether seem to be more beneficial than digging a tunnel. 
 

 

[kermit]

In the category of 'keeping up with the Jones'" Atlanta will apply for a $10.5 million grant to do preliminary engineering on the Stitch (a park on a cap over a portion of the 75-85 connector downtown).

[the same grant program could fund design for removal as well as a cap]

https://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2022/09/20/atlanta-engineering-grant-stitch-downtown.html

Edited September 22, 2022 by kermit

[JRCLT]

Someone fess up…lol

[KJHburg]

Y'all know I don't get into the river on 277 discussion but this is for real in the Netherlands.   How about a river cap??

[Richhamleigh, DC]

9 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

Y'all know I don't get into the river on 277 discussion but this is for real in the Netherlands.   How about a river cap??

Have you seen the elevated rivers in Magdeburg, Germany?  So cool.

[15895]

21 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

Y'all know I don't get into the river on 277 discussion but this is for real in the Netherlands.   How about a river cap??

Flood uptown & SouthEnd except 277 lol.  Uptown and SouthEnd would finally be connected if flooded like this picture 

Edited October 13, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[Reverie39]

18 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Flood uptown & SouthEnd except 277 lol.  Uptown and SouthEnd would finally be connected if flooded like this picture 

So replace all our roads with canals and become the Venice of America. I like it.

[kermit]

Ely’s excellent Charlotte Magazine article on 277 as a problem that can be solved is now out. Big thanks to him for helping to move the Remove 277 discussion into the public discourse. 

one quibble I have with the piece:

Quote

...any major changes would touch a huge number of stakeholders. Those include the city, county, state, and federal governments; Charlotte Area Transit System; Norfolk Southern Railway; private landowners; and, above all, drivers: Parts of I-277 carry nearly 100,000 cars a day.

I would argue that the community members who live within walking / biking distance may have equal or greater significance in this discussion -- I'll bet there are upwards of 150,000 of those folks, we should not reflexively give drivers a big say here, particularly where there are plenty of alternatives for drivers and none for community members.

One other worthwhile excerpt since driver safety has not really entered into this discussion yet:

Quote

The study found that parts of I-277 have accident rates as much as three times higher than the state average. (Try to get off the Brookshire Freeway and onto East 12th Street at Exit 3A, and you’ll understand why.) A highway that funnels a huge volume of cars into three lanes instead of a web of street connections virtually guarantees bottlenecks every rush hour. Worse: The loop doesn’t take you anywhere that surface streets wouldn’t. 

“It really is one giant interchange,” Smith says. 

https://www.charlottemagazine.com/cry-us-a-river-the-calamity-of-i-277-in-charlotte-and-how-we-could-undo-it/

Edited October 17, 2022 by kermit