Cap over Belk Freeway (277)

[Desert Power]

On 9/29/2021 at 2:26 PM, KJHburg said:

You should hop on a DART and ride downtown.  (visit Fort Worth if you have a chance too) 

@CLT2014you are right they paid for half of it privately.  There are several private parks in downtown Dallas too but small ones like where the huge Eyeball is and the Thanksgiving Square. 

Any tips on what to see in Fort Worth? I'll be staying more on that side of the metro, so probably head there tomorrow afternoon. Will take Monday to explore downtown Dallas if there isn't a chance sooner.

[Spartan]

Just wondering if anyone else noticed this on the Station Area Planning page: https://www.catssilverline.com/station-5

[kermit]

1 hour ago, Spartan said:

Just wondering if anyone else noticed this on the Station Area Planning page: https://www.catssilverline.com/station-5

A First Ward cap!

Edited October 2, 2021 by kermit

[go_vertical]

I like how optimistic they are on the second slider showing the Levine garage complete.

[KJHburg]

9 hours ago, go_vertical said:

I like how optimistic they are on the second slider showing the Levine garage complete.

that is probably the new Park and Ride for this Silver Line.  

[davidclt]

I love when UP and Twitter collide @CLTdevelopment @TGIBridays  : Haunted House Development on Twitter: "Who did this? It was me. https://t.co/mxFbHXatAF" / Twitter

(and darnit if UP won't let me leave in the emojis)

Nice map addition!

[tozmervo]

TIL that US74 is officially "Andrew Jackson Highway" through the whole state except for Robeson County.

[KJHburg]

18 minutes ago, tozmervo said:

TIL that US74 is officially "Andrew Jackson Highway" through the whole state except for Robeson County.

they are not too keen on the name Andrew Jackson in ironically Jackson and Swain counties either where US 74 comes through for obvious reasons (Trail of Tears) and it is called Smoky Mountains Expressway in that part of the state.  

[kermit]

Every city in the country is hustling for money for a freeway cap except us (probably because he city feels like it would be ‘too complicated’)

#Removal!

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by kermit

[Matthew.Brendan]

Charlotte can’t even build a pedestrian bridge over 277 and people thinking a freeway cap is in the cards for our lifetime.  

[RANYC]

I'm with KJHBurg on this one - I want to see us follow through on our greenway system down to the last mile.  Any reason why a 277 project would side-track us, however?  You guys know Charlotte and its history of completing things and multi-tasking better than I do.

[TheMightyBK]

Rail trail/cap 277/tourism/entertainment idea


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[RANYC]

2 hours ago, TheMightyBK said:

Rail trail/cap 277/tourism/entertainment idea


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Not too far off.  If we put a glass viewing box over the center of Stonewall Street, why not the same over 277 as part  of a multi-level Rail Trail bridge? 

[jthomas]

3 hours ago, TheMightyBK said:

Rail trail/cap 277/tourism/entertainment idea


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Unfortunately, it will take billions of years for the Belk River to carve a canyon that deep...

[Matthew.Brendan]

Well if the Hawthorne bridge crew gets started now…

[KJHburg]

from Twitter tonight

Joe Bruno
@JoeBrunoWSOC9
There will be a press conference tomorrow morning about the Rail Trail Pedestrian Bridge. Due to rising material costs, the design is changing. There's also a new timeline. 2022 construction start. 2024 opening. Originally was fall 2021 construction, 2023 opening #CLTCC

[JRCLT]

Anytime I see 277 anywhere in a discussion, on a map, in person. It just makes irk. So much land to shoot people in a direction through redundant twin freeway noose around charlottes urban core which up to recently was designed in a suburban style. Slowly the city has reclaimed land from it. But why not take it all back..l well at least half back. Doesn’t have to be necessarily removed entirely and remade into a boulevard which can be expensive. Anything is better than a through-fare for metal boxes. Iconic like the high-line, NY and more useful land accessible uptown fore redevelopment. Removing key parts that are not absolutely necessary while maybe creating a trail and linear park would create and indispensable asset to the surrounding area. Focused on redevelopment on existing structures (anything cut costs. The state has underfunded NCDOT anyways so how about one less redundant freeway that CDOT has to worry about). J. Belk Park? It would be a major attraction if masterfully planned. The Highway has a hold on Americans like any other drug. It’s addicting and difficult to get away from. Also hard to fight against because convenience is over everything else. At least eliminating half would be a like releasing the choke hold that these freeways have on the urban center.



Just ranting at this point.

[jjwilli]

6 hours ago, JeanClt said:

Just ranting at this point.

Seems like a good many of us have this rant on this board. And a few more joking on Twitter about this 277 River. Maybe it’s just an echo chamber I am in but I feel if we come together on this we can lobby the city / state for this change to happen one day. The Queens Park group was successful in moving their park idea in the public realm with a similar effort.

Adding my two cents;

As you mentioned, NCDOT is way underfunded and Charlotte seems to be low on the totem pole (they haven’t touched 77 south of the city in 30 years).  The beauty of this idea is that even with creating a large park you would still have many parcels in high demand center city that you could sell to partially pay for the removal / park. Along Hill St, the three on/off ramps along Morehead / South, and between the Pipe Foundry land come to mind. Then there’s land around the future Med School as well. And there’s now a small pool of federal money for highway removal projects.

Add on/off ramps from 77 to W Summit and Carson (connecting thru Pipe Foundry land where Post St is today). Morehead would be your main “replacement” blvd but Carson and W Summit would help carry the traffic load for people trying to get to South End. All three could help carry game day traffic to the new stadium.

These on/off ramps around 77 would also mostly disappear. You still have Wilkinson and Freedom colliding here but perhaps this could help better layout those roads and their ramps with 77.

Think of the Highline / Rail Trail / park like connection between the Silver and Blue line you could have.

Pipe dream? Probably. But with a website, some fancy maps / renderings (hey @TheRealClayton), and a press release we could at least get more people talking about it. Maybe with fewer jokes about it being turned into a river this time?

[B Randy]

On 12/18/2021 at 6:00 AM, jjwilli said:

Seems like a good many of us have this rant on this board. And a few more joking on Twitter about this 277 River. Maybe it’s just an echo chamber I am in but I feel if we come together on this we can lobby the city / state for this change to happen one day. The Queens Park group was successful in moving their park idea in the public realm with a similar effort.

Adding my two cents;

As you mentioned, NCDOT is way underfunded and Charlotte seems to be low on the totem pole (they haven’t touched 77 south of the city in 30 years).  The beauty of this idea is that even with creating a large park you would still have many parcels in high demand center city that you could sell to partially pay for the removal / park. Along Hill St, the three on/off ramps along Morehead / South, and between the Pipe Foundry land come to mind. Then there’s land around the future Med School as well. And there’s now a small pool of federal money for highway removal projects.

Add on/off ramps from 77 to W Summit and Carson (connecting thru Pipe Foundry land where Post St is today). Morehead would be your main “replacement” blvd but Carson and W Summit would help carry the traffic load for people trying to get to South End. All three could help carry game day traffic to the new stadium.

These on/off ramps around 77 would also mostly disappear. You still have Wilkinson and Freedom colliding here but perhaps this could help better layout those roads and their ramps with 77.

Think of the Highline / Rail Trail / park like connection between the Silver and Blue line you could have.

Pipe dream? Probably. But with a website, some fancy maps / renderings (hey @TheRealClayton), and a press release we could at least get more people talking about it. Maybe with fewer jokes about it being turned into a river this time?

All great points.  

land Develpment + reduced costs for state long term + economic development + City identity + neighborhood connectivity + increased tree canopy and air quality. 

Unlike the largely unsuccessful approach of Queens Park - I think this conversation needs to start w a group of plugged in civic/design leaders having honest conversation with NCDOT, City, Center City Partners FIRST.  

Rather than telling the state what to do with their land and putting it out in public.

[RANYC]

2 hours ago, B Randy said:

All great points.  

land Develpment + reduced costs for state long term + economic development + City identity + neighborhood connectivity + increased tree canopy and air quality. 

Unlike the largely unsuccessful approach of Queens Park - I think this conversation needs to start w a group of plugged in civic/design leaders having honest conversation with NCDOT, City, Center City Partners FIRST.  

Rather than telling the state what to do with their land and putting it out in public.

What would a first concrete step toward a 277 cap look like?  Getting either the city council or the county to fund a capping study?  Is that what cap boosters are aiming for?  

 

[B Randy]

1 hour ago, RANYC said:

What would a first concrete step toward a 277 cap look like?  Getting either the city council or the county to fund a capping study?  Is that what cap boosters are aiming for?  

 

I’m not sure what cap boosters are after, I’d personally like to see a more wholesale approach similar to the last few posts.  Don’t miss the forest for the trees.

Before a million dollar A/E study is pitched, I’d think it needs to involve serious, honest discussions w NCDOT, City of Charlotte, other stakeholders.  And the foundation for those talks would be a credible series of high level scenarios, issues, outcomes generated by project  champions (civic, design leaders) -  to elicit  feedback, build credibility and start a dialogue towards consensus (whatever is possible).  

Workshops to chart the range of possible outcomes before settling on a strategy or drawing something that’s not feasible for whatever reason. 

[Merthecat]

I completely forgot about this—I actually did a brief "what-if?" study on capping or removing the Belk Freeway this spring for a planning class.  This has probably already been posted, but a cap was discussed about a decade ago and was estimated at $330m in 2013.  That figure has surely skyrocketed since then.

Here are some of my findings:  As for removing the freeway entirely—between Clarkson St. and 7th St., the freeway right-of-way consumes approximately 116 acres.  Based on per-acre property values on both sides of the freeway, I calculated rough estimates of what each right-of-way parcel would be worth if it were not tax-exempt.  The total came to just over $458m, and this is a relatively conservative figure because it doesn't include the possibility of valuation increases as a result of the freeway's removal.  While surely the freeway removal and new replacement infrastructure would be costly, there's a lot of value to be created here.  The City would surely appreciate the increased tax revenue from these parcels.

I used a Google MyMap to organize some of this, as well as visualize a possible street grid replacement.  You can look at it here:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1oemDbiWgXmZpMO_LViuXCFg3KEmVl9_T&usp=sharing

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by Merthecat

[davidclt]

3 minutes ago, Merthecat said:

I completely forgot about this—I actually did a brief "what-if?" study on capping or removing the Belk Freeway this spring for a planning class.  This has probably already been posted, but a cap was discussed about a decade ago and was estimated at $330m in 2013.  That figure has surely skyrocketed since then.

Here are some of my findings:  As for removing the freeway entirely—between Clarkson St. and 7th St., the freeway right-of-way consumes approximately 116 acres.  Based on per-acre property values on both sides of the freeway, I calculated rough estimates of what each right-of-way parcel would be worth if it were not tax-exempt.  The total came to just over $458m, and this is a relatively conservative figure because it doesn't include the possibility of valuation increases as a result of the freeway's removal.  While surely the freeway removal and new replacement infrastructure would be costly, there's a lot of value to be created here.  The City would surely appreciate the increased tax revenue from these parcels.

I used a Google MyMap to organize some of this, as well as visualize a possible street grid replacement.  You can look at it here:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1oemDbiWgXmZpMO_LViuXCFg3KEmVl9_T&usp=sharing

 

It would be awesome if every fill in street could be a tunnel and it was a ribbon park style greenspace bordered by buildings (since this is all fanciful anyway).

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, B Randy said:

I’m not sure what cap boosters are after, I’d personally like to see a more wholesale approach similar to the last few posts.  Don’t miss the forest for the trees.

Before a million dollar A/E study is pitched, I’d think it needs to involve serious, honest discussions w NCDOT, City of Charlotte, other stakeholders.  And the foundation for those talks would be a credible series of high level scenarios, issues, outcomes generated by project  champions (civic, design leaders) -  to elicit  feedback, build credibility and start a dialogue towards consensus (whatever is possible).  

Workshops to chart the range of possible outcomes before settling on a strategy or drawing something that’s not feasible for whatever reason. 

Booster = keen promoter of a cause…the cause in this case being the capping of 277

[kermit]

this particular addition to the now well-known tictock/twitter thread seemed appropriate here:

REMOVE 277!

(we won't get the Grand Canal, but it could be pretty great)

Edited January 30, 2022 by kermit