Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[15895]

I was in town this past weekend to see the Checkers play.  On Satrday after the game I went to uptown, and I must say, the streetcars look awesome.  

I still maintain my position that creating a 10 mile line is a mistake, but streetcar definitely has a place in the Charlotte transit picture.  I really wish that the city would reconsider the scope of the project and instead have multiple lines emanating from uptown (I.e. Midtown/CMC/QueensU, Freedom Drive, etc.).  I also hope the city will continue using the replica cars...they really look good and differentiate themselves from the Light Rail in a good way.  

Here's hoping Phase 2 comes quickly.

well think of it like 2 separate lines. 5 miles east of uptown and 5 miles west of uptown.

[cltbwimob]

^^^It's actually more like 3.5 miles one way and 6 miles the other way.  At any rate, I don't think it's merely a matter of changing perspectives.  My problem lies in the fact that it's so long, especially the Central Avenue portion, that it will cease to be a viable transit option due to its long average trip times.  Most transit planners including some with the city think that Streetcar is meant to be an urban circulator technology for short trips near the core where speed is not as much of a factor in a person's "ride/don't ride" decision.  At 5-6 miles with an average speed of transit speed of 6-8 mph plus wait time at the station where you board, the trip can easily push an hour.  In those cases speed will certainly play a factor in people's "ride/no ride decision".  When you consider a car can make the same trip in 15-20 minutes, I doubt streetcar will stack up well to the alternative.  

Considering that by Ron Tober's own admission  streetcar was something he used to placate east and west side neighborhoods, the routing and length decisions were likely not much more than afterthoughts that were subservient to a strong political motive.  Considering also that I've had a conversation about this project with some of the transportation engineers in the city who have said that the Gold Line will be too long, I think there is ample reason to suspect that Phase 3 is a bad idea whereas Phase 1&2 will prove to be resounding successes.

[15895]

I think Phase 3 will be a success if they stop it a little after Plaza Midwood and connecting to Rosa Parks Transit center on the other. If they do fully build out the gold line, I think there are too many stops  on central.

 

Im under the impression that most people will be terminating or beginning their trips uptown or at the uptown Transit centers. So that's why my "perspective" is its 5 miles one way, 5 miles another. Just doesn't seem too long to me. Maybe my assumption is wrong in that most people won't begin or end their trip uptown 

[tusculan]

I agree with the idea that it matters how you think about it. Very clearly, this system, at current operational speeds, in mixed traffic, and lacking signal priority would be awful for the full trip from Eastland to Rosa Parks. I honestly think 5 miles is too long for it to be functional, if people were riding from end to end. Rather I think the question is can it be supported in each and every .5 mile - 2.5 mile segment. This is where the streetcar as configured really shines and is a valuable tool. If through its entire 10 mile length, this distance is supportable, then the line will be ridiculously popular. 

If it can't be supported at every .5 mile to 2.5 mile segment, then it needs to alter something. Either its route, or its terminus, or by being faster with fewer stops. 

I would love to see a streetcar system that provides great coverage for everything inside the middle ring of the city 3 miles and in from the center city. But I recognize that not all of these could support the same type of service that is needed uptown.

[Deleted.]

If Phase 3 was dedicated right of way along Central then it would be useful, but as a streetcar it will/would not work. 

[SgtCampsalot]

Yeah, if the gold line can go as-is through the Plaza-Midwood CBD, then convert to a median ROW soon after, it would work. Then it would set them up to eventually extend it down Albemarle Rd as a further commuter line (in 67 years). If they didn't do that ROW early on, then even if they wanted to extend it down Albemarle Rd in 67 years, nobody would ride it if they had to convert to street-driving at the Eastland area.

Edited November 10, 2015 by SgtCampsalot

[southslider]

Even parts of Phase 1 and 2 should be converted to exclusive lanes, say I-77 to Charlottetowne. Much of this segment is 4 lanes and could go down to 2 for cars, or certain blocks near the Square and CPCC could even go car-free.  Then, Charlotte would have a head start on building an east-west light-rail line.

[SgtCampsalot]

Even parts of Phase 1 and 2 should be converted to exclusive lanes, say I-77 to Charlottetowne. Much of this segment is 4 lanes and could go down to 2 for cars, or certain blocks near the Square and CPCC could even go car-free.  Then, Charlotte would have a head start on building an east-west light-rail line.

I have considered this. The push-back would be legendary. But in the long-run, making certain zones along the tracks completely car-free would be a bold step toward a level playing field for all modes.

I once saw a rendering of Independence Square at Trade/Tryon being a true Square, no cars, and the train running through it. It was magical, but practically an impossible dream.

[dcharlotte]

If Phase 3 was dedicated right of way along Central then it would be useful, but as a streetcar it will/would not work. 

This would be the only way to do the line, and it could be very successful. However, CATS, NCDOT, and CDOT would need to start preparing everyone now who drives in the corridor now if they ever want to remove one lane of traffic and give it over to a transit use in the next 50 years.

People still complain about the busway even though the busway could in theory carry more people than the other three/four lanes combined during peak times when the lanes are moving slowly. 

[Deleted.]

This would be the only way to do the line, and it could be very successful. However, CATS, NCDOT, and CDOT would need to start preparing everyone now who drives in the corridor now if they ever want to remove one lane of traffic and give it over to a transit use in the next 50 years.

People still complain about the busway even though the busway could in theory carry more people than the other three/four lanes combined during peak times when the lanes are moving slowly. 

It could work if there were new tracks running parallel to central like the Blue Line- they do this in Portland. 

And did anyone go to the streetcar meting last night? Or were we too involved with the common market site? 

[birky]

One of the main goals of the gold line is to connect parts of the city that are in need of economic development with mass transit. Ending the street car at Plaza Midwood is an insane idea.  I'm not trying to be rude, but it really is.  Plaza doesn't really need the economic development boost, the Eastland area does and that was why the plan was to go down central.  There is a fair argument that it should have ROW; "it'll have too many stops if it runs down Central" is not a legitimate argument to scrap the eastern leg of Phase 3.

[archiham04]

the streetcar down Central WILL BE an urban circulator.  It will be circulating residents up and down the most dense urban environment in all of North Carolina.  Welcome to Central Avenue, NC.

Edited November 11, 2015 by archiham04
added hyperlink

[Deleted.]

the streetcar down Central WILL BE an urban circulator.  It will be circulating residents up and down the most dense urban environment in all of North Carolina.  Welcome to Central Avenue, NC.

If it was a seperate line then it would work. But not one 10 mile line. 10 miles is way too long for a streetcar line.

[kermit]

If it was a seperate line then it would work. But not one 10 mile line. 10 miles is way too long for a streetcar line

FWIW Toronto has streetcar lines that are as much as 15 miles and many that are 9 miles long long (among others) that all run in mixed traffic and are all (too) heavily patronized.  They do run at ridiculously high frequencies (less than 5 minute headways) however. 

Saying that no one will ride a 10 mile streetcar line is a red-herring, the line is not designed or intended to serve end to end riders. But the trip from Eastland to uptown does look awfully long without signal preemption or dedicated ROW.

 

Edited November 11, 2015 by kermit
Corrected mileage from initial post

[dcharlotte]

FWIW Toronto has streetcar lines that are 15, 14.8, 14 and 11 miles long (among others) that all run in mixed traffic and are all (too) heavily patronized.  They do run at ridiculously high frequencies (less than 5 minute headways) however. 

Saying that no one will ride a 10 mile streetcar line is a red-herring, the line is not designed or intended to serve end to end riders. But the trip from Eastland to uptown does look awfully long without signal preemption or dedicated ROW.

 

Charlotte does not have the density of Toronto. The end. 

[kermit]

Charlotte does not have the density of Toronto. The end. 

and it never will unless we build transit that can accommodate higher density. Just look to Amsterdam, Copenhagen and Portland to see that we are not locked into our current urban form for all eternity.

More immediately this is the same sort of geographically naive argument as saying the US lacks the density for high speed rail (east of the Mississippi is the same density as France). While Charlotte may be lower density than Toronto as a whole, the job and population density within a quarter mile of the Gold Line route is not significantly different than the density along Toronto's Lake Shore, Beaches or St. Clair lines.

Edited November 11, 2015 by kermit

[Liz Millsaps Haigler]

From my Notes of the Gold Line meeting last night at JCSU:

Funding:  The House and the Senate have both passed the budget with the transportation bill that includes our Phase 2 funding.  The House and Senate are now working on consolidating the two bills.  CATS hopes the grant will be signed sometime between January and March 2016.  In the meantime they will use the money city council has set aside to get started.

Schedule:

November 2015 = Utility Relocation (underground and inside right of way) at the 5 Points Intersection

January 2016 = Right of Way Acquisition

February 2016 = Utility Relocation (overhead on Beatties Ford and Hawthorne)

October 2016 = Construction

July 2019 = Testing and Start Up

Key Points:  All of the platforms will be in the middle of the road with the exception of Trade/Tryon stop

Frazier Avenue will be realigned to connect to Wesley Heights Way and there will be a stoplight at the intersection.

Hawthorne Bridge deck and center pier will be replaced - this will start during the first 6 months of construction and is expected to last 12 to 18 months.  Detour will be Central/7th - not Pecan.

JCSU pedestrian bridge will be removed.

Gateway Sculpture at Trade and Mint will be relocated to Irwin Street

Phase 1 platforms will have to be raised for the new streetcars.  Phase 1 was designed and constructed with this knowledge.  Phase 1 will be closed for 6 to 9 months mostly in 2019.

They are sectioning off areas of construction so the contractor may not work on on two sections that are next to each other at the same time:

Sections from West to East:

French St. to W. 5th St.

W. 5th to I-77 N ramps

I-77 N ramps to Graham St.

Graham St. to Tryons St.

Tryon St. to Arena

E. 5th St. to E. 7th St.

E. 7th St. to Central Ave.

I have to run to a meeting but I have photos from the meeting I shall post later.

 

Liz

[Deleted.]

FWIW Toronto has streetcar lines that are 15, 14.8, 14 and 11 miles long (among others) that all run in mixed traffic and are all (too) heavily patronized.  They do run at ridiculously high frequencies (less than 5 minute headways) however. 

Saying that no one will ride a 10 mile streetcar line is a red-herring, the line is not designed or intended to serve end to end riders. But the trip from Eastland to uptown does look awfully long without signal preemption or dedicated ROW.

 

Only one line (501 Queen) is over 10 miles long; 15 miles to be exact. The next two longest lines are 504 King and 506 Carlton, both being around 9 miles long. The eight other lines are between approx. 3 and 7 miles, with most being around 4-5 miles long- perfect length for a streetcar. Toronto has the advantage of being a larger city with a streetcar "culture" that has been around since the 1860s. We should model our streetcar system on Seattle and Portland not Toronto. 

Also thank you for the notes from the meeting Liz Millsaps Haigler!  

[kermit]

Only one line (501 Queen) is over 10 miles long; 15 miles to be exact. The next two longest lines are 504 King and 506 Carlton, both being around 9 miles long. The eight other lines are between approx. 3 and 7 miles, with most being around 4-5 miles long- perfect length for a streetcar. Toronto has the advantage of being a larger city with a streetcar "culture" that has been around since the 1860s. We should model our streetcar system on Seattle and Portland not Toronto. 

Also thank you for the notes from the meeting Liz Millsaps Haigler!  

You are right, I looked at the km numbers rather than miles for all but the Queen st route. My point remains however, there is nothing about a 10 mile streetcar line that makes it unmanageable.

Why shouldn't we model our streetcar system on Toronto's? Its a city with jaw-dropping sprawl combined with a central density that we aspire to create. We too could have a streetcar culture that is more than 100 years old eventually.

Edited November 11, 2015 by kermit

[Niner National]

Just seems insane to me that it'll take 3 years (I don't expect it to open on the planned date) to build a line that only goes a few miles.

[Deleted.]

Just seems insane to me that it'll take 3 years (I don't expect it to open on the planned date) to build a line that only goes a few miles.

It took almost 2 1/2 years to build a 1.5 mile line that already had tracks laid!  Oh well, this is better than not having a streetcar. 

Why shouldn't we model our streetcar system on Toronto's? We too could have a streetcar culture that is more than 100 years old eventually. 

Becuase we aren't as big as Toronto and our city design isn't like Toronto. Seattle and Portland are like us, so to model a system after cities that are similar to us, in city design with similar ideas for city planning, is a good idea. 

Edited November 11, 2015 by Piedmont767

[kermit]

Becuase we aren't as big as Toronto and our city design isn't like Toronto. Seattle and Portland are like us, so to model a system after cities that are similar to us, in city design with similar ideas for city planning, is a good idea. 

At the risk of devolving into an unanswerable, Cam Newtonesque argument I do think there are as many (perhaps more) similarities between Toronto and Charlotte (ultra-sprawling, conservative suburbs, topography, employment concentration in CBD, industrial mix, demographics, ....) as between Charlotte and Portland or Seattle. But like I said, its unanswerable, so lets agree to disagree on this point and get back to us all wanting more streetcar sooner.

Edited November 11, 2015 by kermit

[Third Strike]

It took almost 2 1/2 years to build a 1.5 mile line that already had tracks laid!  Oh well, this is better than not having a streetcar. 

It pains me that construction crews found old streetcar tracks, buried under Trade, while constructing the first phase of the Gold Line. Sad that so many cities around the U.S. did not preserve their tracks during the 20th century. Even Gastonia and Rock Hill had a streetcar network at one point.

[Liz Millsaps Haigler]

It took almost 2 1/2 years to build a 1.5 mile line that already had tracks laid!  Oh well, this is better than not having a streetcar. 

Really more like 4.5 years because much of the Elizabeth Ave work by The Visualite was done from 2007 - 2009 and that work was a solid 2 years.

[Liz Millsaps Haigler]

Photos from CATS/Lynx Gold Line Phase II meeting 11/10/2015 at JCSU.