Charlotte Center City Streetcar Network

[ajfunder]

New round of Tiger funding announced. The pot is $474 million and the DOT is looking for projects that could get off the ground quickly. This might be a golden opportunity for the streetcar to land some federal funds. Hopefully Charlotte will at least apply.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/north-america/us-tiger-transport-funds-up-for-grabs.html?channel=535

Alex

[Guest]

*crosses fingers* 

[kermit]

New round of Tiger funding announced. The pot is $474 million and the DOT is looking for projects that could get off the ground quickly. This might be a golden opportunity for the streetcar to land some federal funds. Hopefully Charlotte will at least apply.

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/north-america/us-tiger-transport-funds-up-for-grabs.html?channel=535

Alex

Its a small pot of money but my wishlist is:

1) streetcar extended to Gateway

2) gateway station trackwork (not sure what this would be but I would be happy to board the Piedmont from a phone booth using an old 2x6 as a platform if it were downtown).

3) more three car platforms on the Southline (this does not appear to have been budgeted into the BLE)

Unfortunately I have a feeling that secretary Foxx will be reluctant to send anything to the queen city immediately after his appointment.

Edited April 25, 2013 by kermit

[Third Strike]

Looking at the past two TIGER grants, the streetcar projects by Fort Lauderdale and Cincinnati were allocated about $10 million dollars each. I'm suspecting if Charlotte applies for their streetcar project, we might get around the same amount, optimistically speaking. Honestly, I think extending the line to the future site of the Gateway Station seems feasible since it would give that much needed link between the Blue Line and AMTRAK/Red Line/etc (although having it end at Johnson and Wales would be preferable, since then the streetcar line would completely compose uptown).

[orulz]

I think that building Gateway Station should be the top priority for Charlotte when it comes to TIGER, before the streetcar extension to the future location of Gateway, but that's just my opinion. I have to imagine that given all the support the Obama administration has put behind passenger rail in NC, they would want to "finish the job" and get a proper station built in Charlotte.

 

Raleigh got $21 million in the last round for its train station, which was 1/3 the total cost for the trackwork, station, and peripheral infrastructure projects. That was enough to get the ball rolling in a serious way. In Charlotte's case the total estimated cost (according to the 2009 stimulus application) is $96 million ($56 million for tracks/bridges, $40 million for the station building). A $32 million grant would cover 1/3 the cost, which in turn would probably be enough to get the ball rolling.

[ah59396]

I agree.  Gateway Station should be priority number one.  You build the hub, then the spokes.  Not the other way around.  This also draws plenty of more pedestrian traffic into uptown AND gives people a tangible building to see that functions.

[ajfunder]

If we apply to extend the streetcar, hopefully we will include the purchase of a couple of modern vehicles. Maybe its time I write a letter to somebody at city hall and make them aware that this is a great opportunity for the advancement of multiple projects. Doesn't hurt.

Alex

[Matthew.Brendan]

Can anyone please post or link to a picture of the streetcars that will be put into service?

[kermit]

Can anyone please post or link to a picture of the streetcars that will be put into service?

 

http://www.thesteelrailsadvocate.com/Street%20Car%20Photos/Charlotte_053109_trolley_8_sm%20800%20px.jpg

[michaelef]

I like these, we will need to get the larger more modern cars for when our line (hopefully) expands. But this will bring great character to the neighborhood. 

[ajfunder]

But terrible for marketing, the city is trying to sell the streetcar as modern and these vehicles although built recently resemble the trolleys of yesteryear. Dont get me wrong, these three cars have beautiful craftsmanship, but it does not help sell the idea of a modern streetcar...

[dubone]

They will be a huge improvement over the ridiculous Gold Rush 'rubber wheeled trolleys' which are quite uncomfortable to ride.  The idea of a fare-free hop on and off circulator service downtown is very useful, and that is why it has such high ridership.

 

 

Obviously these do have some value in linking the city to it's sanitized past, even if they are replicas.   But for a factor of usable transit, these will be pleasant electrically-driven trolleys that most of us have ridden already.  

[Matthew.Brendan]

Wow. I am totally in favor of the Streetcar and all forms of mass/rapid transit but I really think the city is doing itself no favors with how these look. Did we buy these at a deep discount or something? Again I'm a gung-ho supporter but even my knee-jerk reaction to how these look is... "Are you kidding me?" It makes an easy target for opponents to ridicule it

[Urbanity]

One thing to keep in mind while we discuss the cars themselves - The city doesn't appear to have the luxury at this time to purchase brand spanking new modern cars.  

 

I agree with both michaelef and dubone that for the short inner city segment it adds character/hints at our history which is fine by me.   

 

Eventually when the city has more funding and more substantial length to the line it will get the modern cars.

[michaelef]

Some people may be thrown off at the look of it, but I think others will like it, it brings back some charm which most of Charlotte has lost. Not to mention they were originally running on the blue line where lynx is today. So maybe they will help gain interest for riders along the line, just like it has before. Again for short term. Everyone loves them in San Fran 

Edited April 26, 2013 by michaelef

[kermit]

Based on Tuscon's experience it looks like modern streetcars are not in the cards for Charlotte before 2015, even if we could afford them: http://www.kgun9.com/news/local/184205841.html

(I believe that there is only one US supplier and it appears they are brutally backlogged)

Edited April 26, 2013 by kermit

[dubone]

We already owned them.  Are you guys forgetting that before there was the Lynx Blue Line, the starter project for all modern rail transit in Charlotte was a historic trolley line going from 9th Street to Tremont? They originally ran the actual historic trolley that was renovated by volunteers, but then purchased these replica cars to supplement to historic car.   They built it to be compatible with light rail if we ever got approval for the big dream of 'extending the trolley to 485'.   They ran the trolleys every 30 minutes and had a guy that gave tours over the microphone explaining the history of the areas as they passed.     Ultimate, they were relatively successful, despite the limited hours and frequency, but people more rode the trolley line from Tremont to uptown and back, as a tourist activity rather than a routine transit activity.

 

Of course, with the real light rail project funded, they overrode many of the features of the short-lived trolley line, and we got new electrical system, modern light rail stations.   The idea at first was that these replica trolleys would continue to run on the light rail line to supplement frequency between Uptown and Southend, but in the end the larger faster Lynx trumped the replica trolleys and they went to be mothballed sitting around.

 

Now, they are back for that starter-line function again for the streetcar, as they are compatible with the electrical systems to be built for the modern streetcars, but the Elizabeth/Trade route does not require the high speeds that bumped them off the Blue Line.  So it is purely a function of capacity.  These are replacing the Gold Rush vehicles which are smaller, so that is not an initial concern.   They are also already owned by CATS or the city of Charlotte, so it is no brainer to run them even if we do end up buying additional modern cars to add to the line up.

 

The trolley line in SF from Emercardero to Castro uses all sorts of actually historic trolleys they bought from other cities as they terminated their services.   Certainly we could probably also use the historic car of ours on the Trade St line, but it is perhaps a small concern for gaining approvals in this era (I'm sure SF is grandfathered in).   The replica trolleys, however, were built only a decade ago so even though they use century old designs, they have additional safety features that easily allow them to run on the line. 

 

Frankly, it does not matter whether people like them or not.  We already own them, and there has so far been no funding to buy new ones, so that is what we get.

[ajfunder]

^I'm not forgetting that, but I think of the starter project as a perfect showcase of a modern streetcar system for the people of Charlotte. I ask people every day what they think of the streetcar and those that I talk to that don't support it (seems like the majority) picture older vehicles like the ones on Charlotte Trolley operation. The point being, we are giving the naysayers exactly what they are expecting, older vehicles, not modern vehicles. It does make more since to use the three cars on for this short segment, but if Charlotte is serious about extending the line they need a modern demonstrator vehicle.

 

As for the wait for modern streetcars, it is not actually an issue for Charlotte. United Streetcar is the only US company whose sole purpose is to manufacture streetcars. That doesn't mean there aren't other companies Charlotte can use. Siemens just built a few modern streetcars for Atlanta's new line. These vehicles are essentially smaller versions of Siemens S70 avanto vehicles which are the LRV's LYNX uses. It would make since  for Charlotte to purchase from Siemens since it is already contracting to buy 22 new vehicles for the BLE (in addition to the current 20), and make it a package deal. Also, the Siemens model looks awesome. Of course there is that one problem, money. http://beltline.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/Atlanta-Streetcar-on-flatbed.jpg

[Dale]

Well, at least the old-timey streetcars ought to make Michael Graves happy.

[southslider]

Where's the match for TIGER? Not City. Not CATS. Uptown MSD?

[dubone]

Those Siemens variations on the S70 Light Rail vehicles we have look great.  Of course we all want a modern tram, but we were quite lucky to have already paid for vehicles and tracks on half the line, and that is what helped us get the other money for the starter streetcar line, as it was very low budget.  

 

Hopefully some of our politicians will end up going to Atlanta and will end up supporting it once again.  It is bizarre how this has become a hot potato in Charlotte politics.

[carolinagarnet]

I think we are assuming that the only way the streetcar can gain the support necessary to justify an extension is to use modern cars. The vintage-looking streetcar reminds me of the trams used in Toronto, a city that has had a system since 1861 and has a ridership of 286k (over 10% of the population). Toronto has arguably one of the most successful systems in the world and is only now modernizing its streetcar fleet.

 

We all know that Charlotte will continue to add density within the urban core. Light rail is expensive and a lot of people in the South are afraid of buses, so streetcar is the logical option to expand transit within Uptown and the ring neighborhoods. Since streetcars are most useful for short commutes, the system relies largely on the population within a few miles of Uptown. Uptown only has a population of maybe 15k, 20k with South End. I'm not sure what the population of the entire urban core is, but I can't imagine that it exceeds 40k. While streetcar is certainly a catalyst for future development, I have a feeling the area will add density regardless of whether there is access to public transportation or not. It just may not be as channeled as we would like it to be.

 

Isn't it possible that the city will start to run short of developable space near Uptown and that developers will naturally start developing north, requiring an extension of the streetcar line? Gentrifying neighborhoods almost always require a solid form of transport (read: not buses) to handle increases in residents. While some people may not like it, the streetcar is really the only vehicle that makes sense, even if it is a somewhat expensive option. I think expecting to get an amazing streetcar line from the start is unrealistic given that it is new concept in the Carolinas (to my knowledge) and really, in the South. Over time the streetcar will gain in ridership and will eventually justify a longer line with modern streetcars. We just have to be patient.  

[ajfunder]

I wasn't able to get any pictures, but I noticed something that I thought was very cool on Trade street in front of the jail and old city hall. It appears that as crews continue to dig up the street for utility relocation, they have also uncovered and pulled up the rail from the original streetcar line on Trade street. I could be mistaken, but I am fairly sure that is what I saw. I know more tracks were uncovered when East Blvd was redone, and it makes me wonder how much of our original streetcar line is still there under modern city streets. I love this link to another era in Charlotte history. It seems fitting that the old tracks are being removed in order to make way for the relaunch of streetcar service in Charlotte over 75 years later.

Alex

[dubone]

It also makes you wonder why we can't lay them down with the same level of effort as they used to.  Why do we need the continuous welded full concrete foundation craziness, when they just some tracks down and paved between them? 

 

 

I hope they keep them for display like they did on East Blvd, or do something symbolically interesting like reusing the steel from the old tracks for the new.

[carolinagarnet]

Or maybe they would display them at the Trolley Museum if they pull them up?