The West End

[SVL]

On 3/4/2023 at 4:35 AM, gman430 said:

Anybody know what’s going on with New Realm Brewery? It doesn’t appear any work has been done yet. It was supposed to open this Spring. 

This is the first news that I've heard about them in awhile and unfortunately it doesn't cover when they plan to start the work on the brewery. The fact that they partnered with the Drive tells me they're still coming. 

https://greenvillejournal.com/eat-drink/new-realm-brewing-distilling-releases-official-beer-of-the-greenville-drive/

 

[vicupstate]

City Council to vote on Monday to purchase GTA property 

GTA Property Purchase

Property Map

[gman430]

Unfortunate to hear it’s the city buying it. Was hoping it would be a private developer planning a mixed use development. I wonder if this is where the city is planning to build one of the new parking garages downtown. The fact they are paying almost $10 million for the site tells me it probably is. 

Edited April 21, 2023 by gman430

[vicupstate]

34 minutes ago, gman430 said:

Unfortunate to hear it’s the city buying it. Was hoping it would be a private developer planning a mixed use development. I wonder if this is where the city is planning to build one of the new parking garages downtown. The fact they are paying almost $10 million for the site tells me it probably is. 

On the contrary this is the ideal situation. The city already owns the adjoining .72 acre parking lot. There is no way you need  essentially an entire city block for a parking garage.  The city will be able to RFP the site for a major mixed use project, which it will no doubt do.  As the owner the city will be in the driver's seat rather than simply be arbiter over the design (via the DRB) if it were in private hands.    The city received $12mm from the county to build a garage(s) to replace county square parking (ie baseball).   Obviously some of that will be on this site. 

[gman430]

12 minutes ago, vicupstate said:

On the contrary this is the ideal situation. The city already owns the adjoining .72 acre parking lot. There is no way you need  essentially an entire city block for a parking garage.  The city will be able to RFP the site for a major mixed use project, which it will no doubt do.  As the owner the city will be in the driver's seat rather than simply be arbiter over the design (via the DRB) if it were in private hands.    The city received $12mm from the county to build a garage(s) to replace county square parking (ie baseball).   Obviously some of that will be on this site. 

Ahhh..thanks for the correction. That makes more sense. Hopefully they’re able to issue a RFP sooner rather than later. Probably depends on the overall state of the economy. 

[GvilleSC]

This has been in the works (or rumored and dreamed about by leaders) for years. It’s great to see the wheels finally turning. I’d love to see some height closer to Field Street.

[NewlyUpstate]

For what it's worth.. here's two different snippets.. one from the downtown master plan (2019) and one from the west end small area plan (2021).  The design is obviously pretty rough, but I think the massing more or less makes sense with ground level activation along Augusta with restaurants backed by taller residential.  No idea how/if parking plays into this.  I think this is generally a good and needed spot for a parking garage if the city can make it fit well.  The city also would like a "SRT-extension"/pedestrian trail running along the train tracks, so that would likely be in the cards too.

Edited April 22, 2023 by NewlyUpstate

[gman430]

Be aware that the new zoning law will make this site only be allowed a max of 10 floors which is beyond stupid: 

https://www.greenvillesc.gov/DocumentCenter/View/22948/2023-03-15_Draft_Downtown_Map-PDF

Edited April 22, 2023 by gman430

[DirectorBob0209]

https://www.wspa.com/news/local-news/city-of-greenville-adds-new-development-plan-for-the-west-end/

[vicupstate]

The rendering seems to show that 821 S. Main Street is included in this project. A hotel was proposed for that site several years back but it didn't break ground. It is owned by a group out of Charlotte and it .588 acres. 

[GVLer]

I know we want urban density but I foresee a traffic problem since that stretch of Augusta is already dicey. 

[GvilleSC]

54 minutes ago, GVLer said:

I know we want urban density but I foresee a traffic problem since that stretch of Augusta is already dicey. 

Slow is good in promoting a walkable environment. Additionally, the reworking of the road network through County Square should help get people off of Augusta. I'm not worried about traffic, personally. 

[ingvegas]

Agreed. Currently there is a major choke point at the intersections at: (a) Harris St / Augusta St. and (b) Vardry St. / Augusta Street. This will make it worse. 

Harris street intersection issues will eventually be alleviated when County Sq. project changes the feeder road.

But I don't see the Vardry St. backup quandary changing unless that railroad track gets abandoned. Which, as an aside, if that track was abandoned and changed into a bike/walk trail then the western part of Greater Sullivan; northern Dunean area; and, southern area of Sterling neighborhoods would all be given a great access point into downtown. 

[NewlyUpstate]

53 minutes ago, ingvegas said:

Agreed. Currently there is a major choke point at the intersections at: (a) Harris St / Augusta St. and (b) Vardry St. / Augusta Street. This will make it worse. 

Harris street intersection issues will eventually be alleviated when County Sq. project changes the feeder road.

But I don't see the Vardry St. backup quandary changing unless that railroad track gets abandoned. Which, as an aside, if that track was abandoned and changed into a bike/walk trail then the western part of Greater Sullivan; northern Dunean area; and, southern area of Sterling neighborhoods would all be given a great access point into downtown. 

The issue with Harris Street is people using the University Ridge / Harris Street as a through street and turning left onto Augusta. It makes me shake my head every time I see people do that instead of just going down Church.   Honestly the city shouldn't even allow a left turn there. And right, once County Square/Thruston is changed, this won't be a thing anymore.

Agree that Vardry is entirely due to the railroad track and how slow it makes cars have to go to make that turn.

Both of that said, neither of those issues rise anywhere close to a big enough reason to be wary about further dense development on Augusta close to Main.  All these traffic "issues" are primarily created by people trying to use historical shortcuts around downtown instead of using the more primary throughways.  People will adjust either through habit or through better GPS pathfinding.  It seems to me that most of this traffic is transitory through downtown rather than to a destination downtown. Those people can find another way to go instead of creating additional downtown traffic.

Edited April 26, 2023 by NewlyUpstate

[GVLer]

That road pitch from Academy to Vardry is brutal.

[gman430]

On 4/21/2023 at 4:25 PM, vicupstate said:

City Council to vote on Monday to purchase GTA property 

GTA Property Purchase

Property Map

The city approved this today and plans to sell the site to a developer in one to two years. Any new project would have to include a public parking component. The developer who buys the land would be required to create a mixed-use project, with taller buildings in the back of the development facing the ballfield and lower shop fronts facing Augusta Street. The city would also require that any development built on the site be pedestrian friendly, with wide, accessible sidewalks and open greenspace. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by gman430

[gman]

9 minutes ago, gman430 said:

The city approved this today and plans to sell the site to a developer in one to two years. Any new project would have to include a public parking component. The developer who buys the land would be required to create a mixed-use project, with taller buildings in the back of the development facing the ballfield and lower shop fronts facing Augusta Street. The city would also require that any development built on the site be pedestrian friendly, with wide, accessible sidewalks and open greenspace. 

https://www.postandcourier.com/greenville/business/greenville-to-buy-site-next-to-ballpark-for-development-green-space-in-booming-west-end/article_4eed265a-e465-11ed-a99b-a7d06603b4c1.html?utm_campaign=blox&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social#newsletter-popup

[DirectorBob0209]

My poor car can't handle that rise and drop on Vardry lol. I work for the Drive so always hit the drop heading into downtown after the games . I can't even think how they can even fix that. There's no way right? I figured they would have found a way when they were building .408 Jackson

[NewlyUpstate]

8 minutes ago, DirectorBob0209 said:

My poor car can't handle that rise and drop on Vardry lol. I work for the Drive so always hit the drop heading into downtown after the games . I can't even think how they can even fix that. There's no way right? I figured they would have found a way when they were building .408 Jackson

As long as that rail line stays in service, the only options I could possibly imagine are increasing the elevation of Augusta through there, relocating that intersection, or slightly changing the rail route and take some land away from Greenville HS so it doesn't run as close to Augusta.. all pretty crappy options. I have no idea how crucial of a rail line this is, but getting rid of it for a Greenway is my vote.

Edited May 2, 2023 by NewlyUpstate

[GVLer]

I hope the Army Navy building turns out better than I fear it will. 

[PuppiesandKittens]

On 5/1/2023 at 10:21 PM, NewlyUpstate said:

As long as that rail line stays in service, the only options I could possibly imagine are increasing the elevation of Augusta through there, relocating that intersection, or slightly changing the rail route and take some land away from Greenville HS so it doesn't run as close to Augusta.. all pretty crappy options. I have no idea how crucial of a rail line this is, but getting rid of it for a Greenway is my vote.

It’s one of the oldest rail lines in South Carolina and used to even have overnight passenger trains between Greenville and Columbia until the 1960s.  It was there before Augusta Road was there, before the Drive stadium was there and there before the West End boom.   It’s a privately-owned rail line that can’t just be taken away any more than your home can be taken away.

I vote to let its owner continue to use it, but hope that it gets upgraded so that it can take more trucks off the road and perhaps it can carry passengers again.  

[NewlyUpstate]

4 minutes ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

It’s one of the oldest rail lines in South Carolina and used to even have overnight passenger trains between Greenville and Columbia until the 1960s.  It was there before Augusta Road was there, before the Drive stadium was there and there before the West End boom.   It’s a privately-owned rail line that can’t just be taken away any more than your home can be taken away.

I vote to let its owner continue to use it, but hope that it gets upgraded so that it can take more trucks off the road and perhaps it can carry passengers again.  

I'm sure it gets used, I meant critical as in is there a reason why it needs to go through the center of downtown? Where does it even stop?

Edited May 4, 2023 by NewlyUpstate

[olrob]

44 minutes ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

It’s one of the oldest rail lines in South Carolina and used to even have overnight passenger trains between Greenville and Columbia until the 1960s.  It was there before Augusta Road was there, before the Drive stadium was there and there before the West End boom.   It’s a privately-owned rail line that can’t just be taken away any more than your home can be taken away.

I vote to let its owner continue to use it, but hope that it gets upgraded so that it can take more trucks off the road and perhaps it can carry passengers again.  

That's a lovely story about the history of that seldom used rail line. I don't think anyone suggested just "taking it away" like someone's home. But homes can come into disuse and disrepair and be sold and something better can take its place. I think most everyone in Greenville county would consider the transition of the mostly abandoned historic Swamp Rabbit rail line to its current use as an extremely popular greenway and economic development driver to be a net win for the area. 

There's a reason that line hasn't had overnight passenger service in over 60 years and is barely used for freight . All the hoping, wishing and good vibes aren't going to make that line viable again.

[PuppiesandKittens]

5 hours ago, olrob said:

That's a lovely story about the history of that seldom used rail line. I don't think anyone suggested just "taking it away" like someone's home. But homes can come into disuse and disrepair and be sold and something better can take its place. I think most everyone in Greenville county would consider the transition of the mostly abandoned historic Swamp Rabbit rail line to its current use as an extremely popular greenway and economic development driver to be a net win for the area. 

There's a reason that line hasn't had overnight passenger service in over 60 years and is barely used for freight . All the hoping, wishing and good vibes aren't going to make that line viable again.

The Swamp Rabbit Trail exists because the railroad that operated the line went out of business, so the line was totally unused.

The line through the West End is owned by Norfolk Southern, a very well-run railroad, and the line has enough traffic to make Norfolk Southern spend funds to maintain the line and pay taxes on it.  Norfolk Southern does sell its lines every now and then (one through the Saluda Grade and between Asheville and Spartanburg is a recent example), but the West End line is viable.  (It splits from the main Norfolk Southern line that goes between Greenville and Clemson and runs to Greenwood.)

It was there first and helps us all by taking trucks off the road (which reduces congestion on I-85).  I suggest that we see its benefits.  In the future it could take even more trucks off the road or even be used for passengers again.

If roads that cross it are not the best, those can be fixed (and again, they were built after the tracks were already there).

Edited May 4, 2023 by PuppiesandKittens

[gman430]

$3 million building permit issued for New Realm Brewery. Choate is the general contractor. 

Edited May 10, 2023 by gman430