GSA/Federal Courts Expansion issue

[urbanlife]

sorry, I know everyone hates bringing up old articles when there is no news to report. I was just reading the breakdown of Obama's bill and it mentioned that GSA will be getting 7.7 billion for improvements. With the fact that the design work for this expansion is basically done and waiting to move forward, this could easily be considered a shovel ready project in a short period of time.

[mistermetaj]

sorry, I know everyone hates bringing up old articles when there is no news to report. I was just reading the breakdown of Obama's bill and it mentioned that GSA will be getting 7.7 billion for improvements. With the fact that the design work for this expansion is basically done and waiting to move forward, this could easily be considered a shovel ready project in a short period of time.

If they do go along and build the courthouse expansion, then I hope they use the same design, or at least a similar classic look, originally meant to be built on top of the old building, and put it on the Granby Tower lot, or across the street behind the law building. It was a very nice design and would be a nice addition to the Norfolk streetscape as a stand alone with some pillars in the entrance way.

[urbanlife]

actually from the article that I read made it sound like that it would be money for projects that are ready to start or in design phase. So if they were to get money for an expansion, I would think they would have to go with the original plan that they have for using the current site...which I am really hoping to be the case.....also hoping they get some of that money, it would make a nice addition to the city.

[mistermetaj]

actually from the article that I read made it sound like that it would be money for projects that are ready to start or in design phase. So if they were to get money for an expansion, I would think they would have to go with the original plan that they have for using the current site...which I am really hoping to be the case.....also hoping they get some of that money, it would make a nice addition to the city.

Agreed, it would be a very nice addition to the city and bring prominence to the beautiful old courthouse as well. If they do go the route of building above it then they better use nothing but the absolute best materials.

Here's hoping the GSA decides this is an area worth throwing their money towards.

[varider]

Federal Government Wants To Buy Granby Tower Lot

"NORFOLK

The long-dormant Granby Tower site has some new interest from a long-time suitor: the federal government.

City officials and an attorney for developer Buddy Gadams confirmed that Gadams has been approached by the General Services Administration about purchasing the property, which the government has long coveted for an expansion of the federal courthouse.

About 15 men and women who identified themselves as employees of the GSA toured the site at the corner of Granby Street and Brambleton Avenue on Wednesday, taking photographs and looking at surveys of the property."

[varider]

Personally I think there is no way the city can afford to let the Federal Government buy this lot to put a nontaxable courthouse that will do nothing for Downtown. The city must buy it, and when the economy rebounds sell it to another developer with plans to hopefully build something tall and nice.

[Telmnstr]

Courthouse condos! You start with a federal building on the first few floors, then a hotel, apartments and condos above it.

[VAGATOR]

Personally I think there is no way the city can afford to let the Federal Government buy this lot to put a nontaxable courthouse that will do nothing for Downtown. The city must buy it, and when the economy rebounds sell it to another developer with plans to hopefully build something tall and nice.

If the government doesn't buy it, it will be a big hole in the ground for the foreseeable future. I'm glad the government is making a move on it.

[ffjjjj]

Personally I think there is no way the city can afford to let the Federal Government buy this lot to put a nontaxable courthouse that will do nothing for Downtown. The city must buy it, and when the economy rebounds sell it to another developer with plans to hopefully build something tall and nice.

I agree w/ varider. I also like the idea that the Feds should sell their current courthouse across the street and develop a new one away from downtown where the land is cheaper and parking would be more accessible. In any event, there is just not enough room in Dntwn Norfolk for the Feds to occupy both of those valuable pieces of land. Their buildings become dark and deserted at closing time and remain so all weekend long. Multiuse development is the wave of the future, and we need that there, a la Wells Fargo Center. The Feds should go to VB, Ches., or Suffolk. Norfolk and Feds would both come out ahead.

[urbanlife]

oh I hope GSA doesnt buy this lot, it will be such a waste and will definitely sit vacant for the next 10 years.

I doubt the Feds will move out of downtown, they are a stickler for not moving unless it is seriously an unsafe location.

It would be nice if the city had a development commission. I am very fond of those, which is basically a department in the city that buys property and then sells it to developers that wish to build. It is a great way for a city to acquire a large amount of property and have it move quicker than it would be having individual developers trying to do the same thing.

Besides, GSA already has plans drawn up for expanding upward at their current site, they should stick to that plan because it could easily become a shovel ready project soon rather than starting over from the beginning.

[varider]

Did you guys read in the article that Gaddams was still diligently trying to get loans to fund Granby Tower!? I wish he would stop lying..

[brikkman]

Well, that's a pretty much a done deal if you ask me! First, I thought they gave them the land and/or gave it to them for cheap. I am pretty sure its some type of stipulation in that somewhere. I am not happy about the idea as it places more emphasis on st.pauls quad. to move upward, and this is pretty much a dead idea. There are only a few lots left in the immediate DT.

[jeffconn]

About time! This sure beats that silly idea of expanding into the Greyhound lot.

BTW, i think that the worse thing possible would be the feds moving out of downtown. The fed building is just a few blocks from the Monticello Ave Tide station. Also, a REAL downtown needs government buildings. That's one reason why Virginia Beach's town center isn't taking off like VB hoped. There's no reason for a person who doesn't work there to go to town center. A vital downtown needs variety: government, culture, commercial, religious, residential, business, entertainment, education.

</end rant mode>

[virginia pe]

About time! This sure beats that silly idea of expanding into the Greyhound lot.

Expanding across Brambleton into the Greyhound lot was never considered. VP mentioned it, but the feds never did. Federal regulations prohibit transporting prisoners across a roadway either overhead on a bridge or underground through a tunnel. If they expand to the west on Gaddams site, they will close Granby Street for the same reason.

By the way, vertical expansion of the existing building may sound sexy, but it is extremely expensive. And once they start construction on the new vertical addition, there is a much greater chance of encountering unforeseen conditions in the existing building, which would increase the costs even more. On top of that, their intention was to do the construction while maintaining operations in the current court facilities. That also increases the contractor's costs since he has to coordinate and schedule his work around the court schedules and protect the building inhabitants from construction activites, plus he has greatly increased costs for security measures to screen and inspect the construction workers as they go into and out of the building. And don't forget about the noise. The judges complained about the pile driving for GT. Imagine how much more noise there would be if the contractor is working inside the courthouse building.

With all of the technical challenges and the logistical problems of expanding upward in the current building, I would say the Gaddams site is as good as gone.

[Sky06]

Expanding across Brambleton into the Greyhound lot was never considered. VP mentioned it, but the feds never did. Federal regulations prohibit transporting prisoners across a roadway either overhead on a bridge or underground through a tunnel. If they expand to the west on Gaddams site, they will close Granby Street for the same reason.

If Granby Street is closed at Brambleton, it will kill the businesses on Granby. No one will want to drive around their elbow to get to the their nose. If a road were built on the other side to connect to Granby, it might work. But I doubt that would happen. Closing Granby would kill downtown and ruin all sense of flow.

[RJWGMU]

Also, a REAL downtown needs government buildings. That's one reason why Virginia Beach's town center isn't taking off like VB hoped. There's no reason for a person who doesn't work there to go to town center.

Sorry to be off topic, but, are you insane? it has taken off far faster than they hoped! not to mention it is always croded with people who don't live OR work there... get your head out of the sand... sure there isnt much other than restaurants now, but it is immensley popular... i dont know what you consider Town Center to be but just to clarify, its at the intersection of Indy and VB Blvd with big tall buildings and long lines of people waiting to eat and all the traffic...

[urbanlife]

If Granby Street is closed at Brambleton, it will kill the businesses on Granby. No one will want to drive around their elbow to get to the their nose. If a road were built on the other side to connect to Granby, it might work. But I doubt that would happen. Closing Granby would kill downtown and ruin all sense of flow.

They wouldnt close the street, the reason why they cant do the Greyhound lot is because of how wide Brambleton is, but they can close off Granby, a two lane road, when they need to transport criminals from one building to the other. So if anything it would be a minor inconvenience from time to time.

Though I have never understood the whole cant do tunneling thing...to me that sounds so much more safe compared to taking them outside and walking across the street...the only better thing for them to do would be to build an entirely new building on the GT lot, then sell off their old building.

Oh, and the stab at the VB Town Center was a bit uncalled for...that is the last thing we need is to have this thread turn into is the TC good or not argument.

[jeffconn]

Sorry to be off topic, but, are you insane? it has taken off far faster than they hoped! not to mention it is always croded with people who don't live OR work there... get your head out of the sand... sure there isnt much other than restaurants now, but it is immensley popular... i dont know what you consider Town Center to be but just to clarify, its at the intersection of Indy and VB Blvd with big tall buildings and long lines of people waiting to eat and all the traffic...

WARNING:

Fair enough. Town Center is, in my opinion, the latest fad. It's a bunch of trendy costly restaurants, office buildings, the Sandler Center, motels, and some high rise residences for social climbers. No government buildings, no medical facilities, no reasonably priced retail (except for Dick's), no inexpensive locally owned restaurants, no churches, no library, no convenience stores, grocers, or pharmacies. In other word, no reason for the average person on a budget to go there.

I hope it does live up to its potential, but for now, TC is just too high-end and exclusive for me. The Town Center website is peppered with buzzwords like "upscale", "high-end", "exclusive", "discerning", and "private". Obviously, they don't want the hoi polloi in TC. And i believe that the present economy will kill most of the restqaurants and retail in TC within a few years, unless Virginia Beach lowers its expectations about TC.

That's all i will say about TC in this thread. I don't want to be accused of threadjacking.

</end rant mode>

[varider]

When I think of Town Center I don't just think about the few blocks built within the last few years by Armada Hoffler and company. I think of the surrounding area as well. And the way I look at it, Town Center has a Ruby Tuesday, Taco Bell, K-Mart, Music Store, Barnes and Noble, Etc. all giving a everyday joe a reason to visit.

Sorry vdogg.

[Sky06]

They wouldnt close the street, the reason why they cant do the Greyhound lot is because of how wide Brambleton is, but they can close off Granby, a two lane road, when they need to transport criminals from one building to the other. So if anything it would be a minor inconvenience from time to time.

If that's all there is to it, then I could almost live with this. Having a building there is better than a hole in the ground. I'd still prefer AH to come to the rescue and use the same design for a mixed use building (Baxter's could vacate their property and rel;ocate here), but if not and we want other tall buildings, there's always St. Paul's Quadrant.

[Telmnstr]

If that's all there is to it, then I could almost live with this. Having a building there is better than a hole in the ground. I'd still prefer AH to come to the rescue and use the same design for a mixed use building (Baxter's could vacate their property and rel;ocate here), but if not and we want other tall buildings, there's always St. Paul's Quadrant.

I thought Baxters was tied to the guy who built the condo building? Wright Properties rehabbed it. With that being the case I'd imagine it won't move anytime soon? I remember wandering through it when it was an office furniture store.

[Telmnstr]

WARNING:

Fair enough. Town Center is, in my opinion, the latest fad. It's a bunch of trendy costly restaurants, office buildings, the Sandler Center, motels, and some high rise residences for social climbers. No government buildings, no medical facilities, no reasonably priced retail (except for Dick's), no inexpensive locally owned restaurants, no churches, no library, no convenience stores, grocers, or pharmacies. In other word, no reason for the average person on a budget to go there.

I hope it does live up to its potential, but for now, TC is just too high-end and exclusive for me. The Town Center website is peppered with buzzwords like "upscale", "high-end", "exclusive", "discerning", and "private". Obviously, they don't want the hoi polloi in TC. And i believe that the present economy will kill most of the restqaurants and retail in TC within a few years, unless Virginia Beach lowers its expectations about TC.

That's all i will say about TC in this thread. I don't want to be accused of threadjacking.

</end rant mode>

I think it's odd how VaBeach drove these chain restaurants that actually ended up hurting the local restaurants. Of course, I'd imagine, at some point in the future wives are going to have to actually sit down and break in those expensive granite and stainless steel lined show kitches and cook a meal to save some bucks.

Government buildings don't generate tax income. Don't let the VaBeach govt move to town center, they already built out their world down off Princess Anne.

Downtown Norfolk lacks some of the stuff you mentioned. No churches, that's a good thing lol. There is the central library. Aren't they just places for lower income people to go to get access to myspace and blackplanet.com? We have internets now, half.com and amazon. It's easier to buy a used hardback copy than to go to the library. And if you find the right coinstar machine, you can pay with pocket change (Without loosing any percent to the man).

The office space in both cities is NUTS man. Very pricy in those towers. I guess it's all about image. I went into Towne Bank to cash a check at Town Center. Wow! Stunning building! Very nice inside, nice outside. A few fancy whips in the parking lot. I'd be curious to see how little the customers get in the way of interest on their money that is stored there.

We'll see where it goes. At some point, if low rise buildings don't fill it first, I suppose the HQ site and FX and all of that could become big buildings, if there are enough lawyers to fill them all.

We went to Fudruckers the other week and it was d e a d. Figure the other places are hurting it.

Pics of the F/X site on my flickr, btw.

[virginia pe]

They wouldnt close the street, the reason why they cant do the Greyhound lot is because of how wide Brambleton is, but they can close off Granby, a two lane road, when they need to transport criminals from one building to the other. So if anything it would be a minor inconvenience from time to time.

Though I have never understood the whole cant do tunneling thing...to me that sounds so much more safe compared to taking them outside and walking across the street...the only better thing for them to do would be to build an entirely new building on the GT lot, then sell off their old building.

They do not transfer prisoners from one building to another by taking them outside and walking across the street. The new building on the GT site and the existing federal building would have a permanent connector between them so nobody (prisoners, federal marshals, attorneys, clerks) has to go outside to get from one building to the other. And the connector would not be a bridge above Granby Street or a tunnel below. It would be a permanent roadblock across Granby Street.

In addition, ever since the truck bomb at Oklahoma City, the federal government requires federal buildings to have a 50-foot "standoff" distance to minimize the damage from a truck bomb. There will be no public street or public parking within 50 feet of the new building. So there will probably be a plaza along Brambleton to create the buffer. On the south side, it is possible that West Bute Street could be closed so the small triangular park between Bute and Charlotte could create the necessary standoff distance. It is even conceivable that a new federal courthouse building on the GT site could doom the Hampton Inn project, too.

[varider]

They do not transfer prisoners from one building to another by taking them outside and walking across the street. The new building on the GT site and the existing federal building would have a permanent connector between them so nobody (prisoners, federal marshals, attorneys, clerks) has to go outside to get from one building to the other. And the connector would not be a bridge above Granby Street or a tunnel below. It would be a permanent roadblock across Granby Street.

In addition, ever since the truck bomb at Oklahoma City, the federal government requires federal buildings to have a 50-foot "standoff" distance to minimize the damage from a truck bomb. There will be no public street or public parking within 50 feet of the new building. So there will probably be a plaza along Brambleton to create the buffer. On the south side, it is possible that West Bute Street could be closed so the small triangular park between Bute and Charlotte could create the necessary standoff distance. It is even conceivable that a new federal courthouse building on the GT site could doom the Hampton Inn project, too.

With that said I think the city really MUST by this land and fast. If all of that is true than the flow of downtown would absolutely die.

[vdogg]

The title of this thread is not "Va. Beach Town Center" so i'm really not sure how the last page of this thread got dedicated to that . Please, lets keep this focused on the federal courts expansion.