GSA/Federal Courts Expansion issue

[urbanlife]

They do not transfer prisoners from one building to another by taking them outside and walking across the street. The new building on the GT site and the existing federal building would have a permanent connector between them so nobody (prisoners, federal marshals, attorneys, clerks) has to go outside to get from one building to the other. And the connector would not be a bridge above Granby Street or a tunnel below. It would be a permanent roadblock across Granby Street.

In addition, ever since the truck bomb at Oklahoma City, the federal government requires federal buildings to have a 50-foot "standoff" distance to minimize the damage from a truck bomb. There will be no public street or public parking within 50 feet of the new building. So there will probably be a plaza along Brambleton to create the buffer. On the south side, it is possible that West Bute Street could be closed so the small triangular park between Bute and Charlotte could create the necessary standoff distance. It is even conceivable that a new federal courthouse building on the GT site could doom the Hampton Inn project, too.

Then I would doubt the GSA would be looking to use both buildings if that were the case. It would make more sense, seeing that they would be building a brand new building to have it be enough that they could then sell off their current building. Granby is still somewhat of a main road, it would not be in the best interest of the city to cut off that road.

Though we are talking hypothetical here without knowing for sure what GSA would do if they owned the Granby lot.

[Mos]

What about the Cedar Grove parking lot? Already off the tax rolls, close to downtown law offices, plenty of buffer. Would need to relocate bus transfers and cruise ship parking(?). (For that matter, what about The Half Moon Federal Courts Building.) I've always thought the current courts building would be perfect for a combined City of Norfolk/ TCC library.

[Norfolk4Life]

Once again, this issue is back in the papers. Everyone needs to be loud, clear, and firm about not letting the GSA build a court annex anywhere other than inside the current property. Their 2006 draft report said that building a tower in the middle of the existing building was MORE COST EFFECTIVE than building on the Granby Tower lot.

Image Source: Draft Environmental Assessment for the Walter E. Hoffman United States Courthouse - Proposed Courthouse Annex - Norfolk, Virginia - GSA, 2006

Image Hosted at: http://757hamptonroads.com/2009/10/29/just-say-no-to-federal-courthouse-plan/

[mikeas]

I'd much rather see that built then taking the Granby Tower site. At the same time I'd like to see something happen to the Lake Granby pit as well. No way in hell the city is going to let the feds close a block of Granby. Maybe if they want to pay to build a tunnel for cars to pass underneath.

[willy]

The Feds. would not let a tunnel go under the building due to safety reasons. They just need to stay on their side of the street, but what gov. wants, gov. takes.

[urbanlife]

I really like the idea of building on top of their own building. That old building would make a great base for a small tower. Which looking at the rendering, I am guessing the GSA would try to get it to match the old building, but even if they went for the complete modern look, that would be good too. When I was kn New York, I got to see the building Norman Foster did, which was basically preserving the base while building a glass tower on top...technically inside of it, which looked amazing.

Either way, the GSA should either build a new building somewhere else in downtown that fits their needs, then sell off their current building or they should just build on top of their current building...the whole idea of having two buildings across the street from each other and having to close down the street because of their pointless rules and regulations would be a huge negative setback for the city and the GSA should not be there to impose negative effects.

[mikeas]

If they can't build on their in the courtyard of their own building then they should build a whole new complex elsewhere downtown. The current building would have made an excellent city library.

[varider]

I hope they just build the tower addition. Not to mention it would make it 230 feet!

[urbanlife]

If this goes through, which the GSA has always been known for being short sighted thinkers and could care less about proper urban planning. If they build an extension across the street, which would be no taller than 150ft, close down Granby for a "Courthouse Plaza" (which has to be the stupidest thing I have ever heard of), you might as well look to Virginia Beach to be the true center of the city because this would be the end of the growth for Norfolk.

Granby's activity would slow to a crawl because it would be a local access street only, therefore there would be Granby closed down and the MacArthur Mall that helps block off the northern part of the city, then it depends on how they develop the St Paul area (which if this happens, they best call the St Paul area the city's new downtown because that area will be better connected than the rest of downtown. But seriously, this project would basically end any future growth of downtown, thus making it much easier for VB to continue to expand their downtown with little competition.

This has to be the worst idea I have ever heard from the city and if the mayor of Norfolk doesnt stand up and fight this and stop the Feds from closing down Granby, I would say the city needs to find them a better city council and mayor because the current crop would no longer be worth a damn.

[mistermetaj]

I really like the idea of building on top of their own building. That old building would make a great base for a small tower. Which looking at the rendering, I am guessing the GSA would try to get it to match the old building, but even if they went for the complete modern look, that would be good too. When I was kn New York, I got to see the building Norman Foster did, which was basically preserving the base while building a glass tower on top...technically inside of it, which looked amazing.

Either way, the GSA should either build a new building somewhere else in downtown that fits their needs, then sell off their current building or they should just build on top of their current building...the whole idea of having two buildings across the street from each other and having to close down the street because of their pointless rules and regulations would be a huge negative setback for the city and the GSA should not be there to impose negative effects.

It's funny, I was reading a book called New York 2000 by Robert Stern (Fishman, Tilove) and it specifically mentioned the Hearst Tower as the building that began New York's trend towards a modern movement rather than a contextual movement in some of New York's more ornated neighborhoods. That building showed how well modern older buildings could work off each other and bring out the beauty in each. Now I definitely agree with the building you are referring to, but typically, I see modern and old deco or pre-war buildings next to each other or stacked on top of each other and it looks pretty ugly to me. I thoroughly doubt the GSA would do anything nice with a modern addition to the courthouse other than an all glass square that does not flow with the base at all. They certainly are not going to higher a Norman Foster to design a diamond lattice for their expansion.

As for the "court plaza" it's a HORRIFIC idea, and soounds like city hall plaza part 2. BLAH!

[urbanlife]

haha, well you are probably right about that...when modern is done within the shell of an older building, it is extremely important for an architect to pay attention to pre-existing architectural content and the level of detail that went into it. The Heart Tower (thank you for the name, I forgot it and was on my way out and did not have time to look up the name before making my post) Made note of the detail in the original building by designing a building that exaggerates the structural integrity of the new tower and makes the design of it just as important as the base, so that neither is a crutch for the other part.

Typically when modern is done next to old or on top of old, it is done because it is cheaper and more efficient...most people dont realize what makes old buildings great, even the modest ones, is the level of detail and attention that went into them and that what is added to this buildings needs the same treatment...maybe not in manpower, but with current technology, there is a level of detail that could not be matched back then that is required in today's buildings if we wish to match this level of detail.

[carolinaboy]

This is becoming Norfolk's version of VB vs. Oceana.

[Telmnstr]

I vote less lawyers and courts!

[ronsmytheiii]

I vote less lawyers and courts!

Denied:

the future of the Granby Tower site now appears headed to court. Developer Buddy Gadams has rejected the government's offer to buy the land for $6.1 million, his lawyer Joe Waldo said Thursday morning.

Well, at least it will keep the site open longer

http://www.wvec.com/news/topstories/stories/wvec_local_110509_granby_towers_rejects_bid.2887e5e47.html

[mistermetaj]

Denied:

Well, at least it will keep the site open longer

http://www.wvec.com/news/topstories/stories/wvec_local_110509_granby_towers_rejects_bid.2887e5e47.html

Gaddam is just trying to get more money, because he believes $6.1 million is below the market value of the lot with all the utility upgrades etc. If the GSA is able to settle with him, it'll be up to the city to stop the GSA expansion to Granby St.

The most ideal situtation is that the Supreme Court rules the site is worth so much that it is not economically viable for the GSA to make the expansion anymore, and are forced to build up instead.

I imagine the city is going to back Gaddam during the entire process. This fight may take years.

[urbanlife]

So I say dont expect anything to be built on that site for the next 10 years. If you look at it that way, you will be surprised if anything happens sooner and unfazed if it takes longer. Either way, I hope the city sees the closing of Granby St as not an option. This would disrupt the integrity of the city and the city should fight this.

[Telmnstr]

We should get a huge amount of people to do an overnight camp at the GT site, if it's not in use next year.

[virginia pe]

Gaddam is just trying to get more money, because he believes $6.1 million is below the market value of the lot with all the utility upgrades etc. If the GSA is able to settle with him, it'll be up to the city to stop the GSA expansion to Granby St.

The most ideal situtation is that the Supreme Court rules the site is worth so much that it is not economically viable for the GSA to make the expansion anymore, and are forced to build up instead.

I imagine the city is going to back Gaddam during the entire process. This fight may take years.

I disagree. GSA will get the site. The court will determine what the property is worth, GSA will pay it, Gaddams will put the money in his pocket and walk away. Gaddams may try to recoup some of his expenses in design work, driving piles, marketing, financing. etc. I doubt the court will award much for that, but who knows? It will be cheaper for GSA to pay whatever the court awards Gaddams than to try to building inside the existing federal court building, while keeping the building in operation. When Turner was driving piles for GT, the judges complained about the noise disturbing their court. Can you imagine how much complaining they wouldhave with construction going on inside the building?

The city will not be able to stop GSA from closing Granby Street. Senators Warner and Webb will try, but I don't think they have enough clout.

In my opinion, the courthouse on the GT site and the closing of Granby Street is a fait accompli.

[mikeas]

While I'd prefer Granby Tower on the Granby Tower site I'm not really opposed to the courthouse being there. The closure of Granby St cannot happen though. The urban grid of downtown has already been destroyed enough by city leaders. Build a pedestrian tunnel or build up.

[mlsimons]

While I'd prefer Granby Tower on the Granby Tower site I'm not really opposed to the courthouse being there. The closure of Granby St cannot happen though. The urban grid of downtown has already been destroyed enough by city leaders. Build a pedestrian tunnel or build up.

Or build a pedestrian bridge with multiple floors and office space. VCU has one above Main Street that connects several buildings. What would be the rationale for closing a completely viable street?

[virginia pe]

So I say dont expect anything to be built on that site for the next 10 years. If you look at it that way, you will be surprised if anything happens sooner and unfazed if it takes longer. Either way, I hope the city sees the closing of Granby St as not an option. This would disrupt the integrity of the city and the city should fight this.

I don't think closing Granby Street would be the end of world. It would be inconvenient, but with some creativity, it does not have to disrupt the integrity of downtown.

Have you ever looked at city hall in Philadelphia? It is located at the intersection of Market Street and Broad Street, two of Philly's largest streets. It is not at the corner of these streets, it is in the middle of the intersection with a traffic ring around it. Take a look on Google maps.

Now imagine a ring around the courts complex, using Boush Street, Bute Street, Monticello Avenue, and Starke Street. The ring would cross Brambleton and enclose about four blocks. This ring road would not be easy or inexpensive, but it is doable. Imagine Class A office buildings inside the loop, north of Brambleton, to provide office space for the lawyers, bail bondsmen, and all the other business that depend on the court.

Now let's go one step further into fantasyland. Let's put Brambleton Avenue underground from St. Paul's Boulevard to Duke Street. There appears to be enough room for the ramp adjacent to Young Park, and another ramp in front of the new Belmont. There could be a pedestrian plaza at grade level, or maybe a two-lane street to provide local access for the buildings inside the loop. Once again, it looks like it could be done, but it would be expensive. Actually, the city proposed putting Bambleton underground in this area about twenty years ago, but that idea never really got off the ground.

Just something to think about.

[virginia pe]

Or build a pedestrian bridge with multiple floors and office space. VCU has one above Main Street that connects several buildings. What would be the rationale for closing a completely viable street?

Federal standards for courthouses prohibit transferring prisoners between buildings via a skybridge across a roadway, or through a tunnel under a roadway. Therefore, for the new courthouse expansion to work with the existing courthouse, they have to be connected, without anyu roadway between them. Also, since the bombing at Oklahoma City, federal guidelines require a certain standoff distance so that no private vehicles can approach within a stated distance of the building. That is the reasoning behind closing Granby Street to create a courthouse plaza.

Someone suggested building the new courthouse large enough to to replace the existing courthouse, and making the existing courthouse into privately owned office space. That is just too expensive. There is too much office space and courtrooms in the existing building for GSA to just abandon it and build new replacement offices and courtrooms on the GT site.

[Achilles]

I saw this on the Pilot a while back and was wondering what everyone here thought about this. I believe ronsmyetheii told me about the federal regulations which required the plaza when I commented on the article. The stifling of Granby Street would be rather horrid. I was hoping that, if the plaza is built, a tunnel or something could be made so Granby St. could go beneath the plaza, but I'm sure that Oklahoma City rule and cost concerns would ruin that idea.

[Norfolk4Life]

Federal standards for courthouses prohibit transferring prisoners between buildings via a skybridge across a roadway, or through a tunnel under a roadway.  

that cant be right. Chesapeake had one built for the DC Sniper trial. it goes under the road from the jail to the court building

[rusthebuss]

Its a shame that the feds didn't get in with the city on the new court expansion and abandoned this building. This could have been used for the new library or some kind of museum.