Orchard Park Development

[Raildudes dad]

So there will be one in Indiana and around Chicago. Would people rather shop down there or would they rather stop around half way to their desitination to take a break from driving and shop, eat and possible stay the night on the way to their destination. US 131 is a well traveled road to getting into the Michigan Northern Country.

People still want to make a claim to have IKEA come to GR too. What would be the difference? They both are big box and both have stores in the state and neighboring ones too.

As far as the money goes, it would depend what it is for. It doesn't sound like they are going to just put the money in the bank. Someone has to provide "city servies" to the area like water, sewer, street lights, sidewals etc. If the state can chip in for the darn SuperBowl game in Detroit and the All Star games, which are for one night only, than why couldn't they pich in some for others?

[CK1]

After listening to a lot of the insight on this posting (which, I do have to say, has been pretty good this time around), and as much as I'd love to see a Cabela's build up in Walker, I'm leaning towards not shedding any tears should the public handout not go through (as city and state leaders have said so far). That is a lot of money, I am very, very, very against sprawl, and should Cabela's require this kind of assistance to make a go of it, find property in GR proper, as the City of GR and the State might (assumption) be more willing to toss in a few dimes to make it happen.

As a matter of fact, I know a nice little three dozen acres with some nice fishing outside the front doors in the City that might fit the bill

[tamias6]

Cabela's draws in alot of people a year. That's a given. But from what I've seen its a Big Box store with a high metabolism. With MC Sporting Goods, Dick's Sporting Goods, Gander Mountain, and others I can't think of off hand, this area has more than enough sources of provisions for the outdoor sportsman. What does Calela's offer that other sporting good stores don't? Does it have red neck versions of Chuck E. Cheese animatronic characters playing on a stage at the back of the store or somthing? Maybe its because I'm not into Fishing or freezing my butt off just to drink a couple of tall cans of Bud and the thrill of plugging a 20 pointer in the head. But to be honest I don't get Celbala's. For them to want the 15 mill incentive is a bit too much especially when other Big Boxes much bigger in size built there establishments without such incentives. I say if Cabela's wants in bad enough they would be the one's to bend over backwards and not the other way around.

The Orchard Park Developer should be looking at other alternatives to Cabela's. Maybe some of the health care and life sciences boom could be brought to Walker with a medical park in that area or somthing. How about an ampitheater? What about zoning that section of the Orchard Park development into somthing to attract hi tech jobs. The people that would be living in the Life Style center portion of Orchard Park would be of the right income bracket for those type of jobs. I'd even settle for an IKEA which would bring in the same number of people that Cabela's would.

But then again, maybe there more to Cabela's asking for the incentive than meets the eye. But either way, so far, this out-of-the-blue incentive thing is leaving a bitter taste in my mouth.

[DwntwnGeo]

I have driven past the one in Dundee I don't know how many times on trips to Ohio & PA and I've never once been tempted to stop and shop let alone stay over night. And that location is EZ off & EZ on. I'm sorry I can't see people going north from Chicago detouring off 131 to go shopping in Walker.

[Rizzo]

The one big "thing" is do you want your government to set a precedent? Cabela's gets a break, so than every retailer comes in expecting the same and in their defense they will reference Cabela's successful bid.

[AlexPKeaton]

Yes, $15Million is a lot of money, but what is more important is how long will it take to get it back? If the City of Walker will make that $15Million back in the first 5 years, is it worth it? Really it might not take that long to aquire that kind of money. Look at the downtown developement, the city wants the developement to aquire $65Million in like 5 years to cover the moving expenses for the City. That is a lot of money for 16 acres to come up with in a short time, around $12-$13Million a year. At this rate, the Cabela's developement which is much larger in acreage, would make that much money in a little over a year. $15Million is a lot of money to us, but in today's large developments it isn't worth a pot to piss in.

[DwntwnGeo]

You're assuming there will be no development there if Walker doesn't chip in. If Cabela's passes on the project without the tax break, what do you suppose will happen with that land? My guess is the developer will just put something else on it and Walker will still increase it's tax base. Let the market do it's job.

[DwntwnGeo]

Maybe I should clarify my point a little better:

I am not saying that we should just drop $15Million to just any development in the area (Cabela's included). Any local government is looking to get the best bang for thier buck. As most businesses and governments do. So would it be better for Walker, to give a little money up front, in order to gain more later down the road?

I am not a banker or developer, so my numbers are probably wrong, but my point should be clearer.

• [1]If Walker were to give the $15 Million and the developement brings in $5Million per year in taxes for the City, it would take 3 years to recoupe the money they gave. More importantly each year after the third year is profit for Walker.

  [2]If Walker says no and the developer puts site condos on the property. Say there is 250 acres and you put four condos per acre for 1000 condos total. Say Walker gets $2000 worth of city taxes on each condo. That equates to $2 Million per year profit for Walker right from the start.

  • Cabelas would have given the city $50M - $15M=$35 Million in profit.

  • Condos would have given the city only $20 Million in profit.

    Wouldn't you choose the model that makes your city and residents the most money? I would hope that the City of Walker is taking a close look at numbers presented in front of them.

[GRDadof3]

What if something doesn't go in for a couple years or many years? Do you know for sure that something is lined up if Cabela's doesn't go? Does the developer have an alternative option? Look at how long some developements wait vacant and empty before somthing starts. What if when something goes in, it just is a bunch of strip malls like verything else in the burbs? Maybe it will go to townhomes and condos or single family houses and the $15Million for sewer, water, and infrastructure improvements get passes on to the homeowner. Do we really need more strip malls or subdivisions?

When it was an Orchard, the city probably didn't get any tax money for it either. The farmer probably had it in Public Act 116, where a farmer's property tax isn't greater than 3% of his income. So it would be wise to build something there rather than leave it an open field.

Are you going to condemn Kentwood, Wyoming, and Bryon Center all the developement along 44th Street and south. From locals in the area, everything south of 44th St. 30 years old was farm fields. So should we not have built any of that either?

[DwntwnGeo]

The only thing missing in your tax calculation is that if you kept the $15 Million in the tax revenue column, that means $15 Million more that does not need to be cut from bleeding municipal and state budgets.

[GRDadof3]

How is this $15 Million being "cut" from Walker's budget? In this case will Walker have to cut a certified check to Cabela for $15Million? The city isn't getting that much for taxes on the land now. I thought, and I could be wrong, that the $15 Million would be given in the form of tax breaks? Meaning the City of Walker won't collect any tax money until the first dollor over $15Million. Again, I may have misunderstood that.

I don't dispute the fact that something else in time or tomorrow will jump on the land and build something, but the question is will it bring in as much tax money and people as a Cabela's will?

Maybe they have a business model that will work for them, but also being right on the Beltline, do they already have the infrastructure built and in place for the developement they are looking to build? If there was already a 4 lane divided highway with city water and sewer running down it maybe Cabela's wouldn't be asking for money either?

[DwntwnGeo]

People have different view points and opinions, so there isn't any use to dispute everything on this site. I do not know any information other than what has been produced by the media outlets. Personally as a resident if a unique opportunity presents itself with the potential to create a much greater tax base, than I would consider granting a minor tax incentive to land the developement. I would feel that my city will be able to provide more and better services to me earning $10Million a year verse $5Million. This does not mean that I am in full support of this project as I have not seen any of the details on the develope. I would just hope that the City of Walker or any city would at least take a look at the numbers now and in the future before shooting from the hip and saying no way.

[egrguy]

People have different view points and opinions, so there isn't any use to dispute everything on this site. I do not know any information other than what has been produced by the media outlets. Personally as a resident if a unique opportunity presents itself with the potential to create a much greater tax base, than I would consider granting a minor tax incentive to land the developement. I would feel that my city will be able to provide more and better services to me earning $10Million a year verse $5Million. This does not mean that I am in full support of this project as I have not seen any of the details on the develope. I would just hope that the City of Walker or any city would at least take a look at the numbers now and in the future before shooting from the hip and saying no way.

[tamias6]

According to this 3/17/2006 article, there are two other stores the City of Walker would try courting if Cabela's falls through. However the names of these "two other stores" are not mentioned.

Article > Second peragraph

[blueradon]

Even with all this Cabela's talk and how there are other stores pretty close by, I still think IKEA would be successful there. Given the fact that there is already one in Troy and Schaumburg...I think Grand Rapids location would be a stronghold for many people. For example think of the suburbs and outer towns...and probably die hard enthusiasts from Cadillac, Ludington, perhaps even Traverse City would make a trip down to GR to go to Ikea.

I personally wish the Troy IKEA would have been built in lansing...would have been a happy medium for ppl in Detroit and GR to go to...and I agree with the other comment that it could probably generate just as much revenue if perhaps not even a little bit more.

If anything, I'll take an IKEA on the Beltline...but they are a lot like Cabela's to the fact that they want to be right off an expressway interchange...I wouldn't be surprised if IKEA is eyeballing the walker location heavily right now. Just my 2 cents.

[GRDadof3]

People have different view points and opinions, so there isn't any use to dispute everything on this site. I do not know any information other than what has been produced by the media outlets. Personally as a resident if a unique opportunity presents itself with the potential to create a much greater tax base, than I would consider granting a minor tax incentive to land the developement. I would feel that my city will be able to provide more and better services to me earning $10Million a year verse $5Million. This does not mean that I am in full support of this project as I have not seen any of the details on the develope. I would just hope that the City of Walker or any city would at least take a look at the numbers now and in the future before shooting from the hip and saying no way.

[Veloise]

I have driven past the one in Dundee I don't know how many times on trips to Ohio & PA and I've never once been tempted to stop and shop let alone stay over night. And that location is EZ off & EZ on. I'm sorry I can't see people going north from Chicago detouring off 131 to go shopping in Walker.

...

[Rizzo]

Mackinac Says no net increase in jobs with Cabela's,

http://www.wzzm13.com/news/local/grmetro_a...x?storyid=66493

[AlexPKeaton]

From the article: "A review of company financial statements shows Cabela's depends on tax breaks to stay profitable."

That tells me they sell stuff cheap, at a price competitors can't match, and to do so they need tax breaks. So, in effect, by giving them a tax break we'd be willingly putting their competitors out of business. Businesses should succeed or fail on their own merits. They shouldn't depend on government handouts.

-nb

[blueradon]

From the article: "A review of company financial statements shows Cabela's depends on tax breaks to stay profitable."

That tells me they sell stuff cheap, at a price competitors can't match, and to do so they need tax breaks. So, in effect, by giving them a tax break we'd be willingly putting their competitors out of business. Businesses should succeed or fail on their own merits. They shouldn't depend on government handouts.

-nb

[tamias6]

Sorry Cabella's but I'm supporting the state if it says "No Incentive Package".

[egrguy]

Sorry Cabella's but I'm supporting the state if it says "No Incentive Package".

[GRDadof3]

Michael Shore, MEDC VP of Communications -

He said the MEDC talked with Cabela's and offered to show them brownfield redevelopment opportunities in the region where they could receive tax incentives for locating. In Shore's estimation, Cabela's has a particular spot in mind, and the company is intent on asking for incentives for something it plans to do anyway.

The MEDC's failure to provide incentives will not kill the chances of Cabela's locating in Walker, because it's going to happen anyway, Shore said. If the MEDC were to provide tax incentives for Cabela's, it would have to do it for every Meijer, every Wal-Mart, every shoe store, every gas station and every other retailer that asks for consideration, he pointed out.

"I think it's significant and notable that the city of Walker is also unwilling to provide any incentives," Shore said. "The fundamental piece is that this is the location that Cabela's wants; this is where it wants to be."

Grand Rapids Business Journal

According to the article, MEDC has been more than helpful and will also do everything it can to make Cabela's entry into the marketplace as seamless and easy as possible.

As far as the statements about Cabela's not being a typical retailer, for those who haven't been there, it's essentially like Galyans (now Dick's) at Rivertown, but a bit bigger with a giant artificial mountain/waterfall with stuffed animals climbing all over it. Essentially a Gander Mountain with a much larger inventory. That was my impression of the Dundee store.

[egrguy]

Michael Shore, MEDC VP of Communications -

He said the MEDC talked with Cabela's and offered to show them brownfield redevelopment opportunities in the region where they could receive tax incentives for locating. In Shore's estimation, Cabela's has a particular spot in mind, and the company is intent on asking for incentives for something it plans to do anyway.

The MEDC's failure to provide incentives will not kill the chances of Cabela's locating in Walker, because it's going to happen anyway, Shore said. If the MEDC were to provide tax incentives for Cabela's, it would have to do it for every Meijer, every Wal-Mart, every shoe store, every gas station and every other retailer that asks for consideration, he pointed out.

"I think it's significant and notable that the city of Walker is also unwilling to provide any incentives," Shore said. "The fundamental piece is that this is the location that Cabela's wants; this is where it wants to be."

[DwntwnGeo]

The Business Journal Article GRDad referenced above also mentions these:

City Planner Frank Wash says: