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Orchard Park Development

OneSweetWorld

By OneSweetWorld
in Grand Rapids

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torgo Town

torgo

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Maybe its just me, but did anyone really think this project was going to be anything other than a gigantic sprawl-fest? I mean, sure, they throw around buzz-words like "mixed-use" and "lifestyle center", but given its location, we are getting exactly what I figured we would be getting, only a lot bigger.

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tamias6 Town

tamias6

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Let me guess we're going to throw in a Super Target as Target recently pull its request to Grandville to get the old factory on River Town Pwy. and Ivanrest rezone to C-4 commercial.

This place is going to go through the roof when the details of the deal come out...

There's a hint of it in some of the articles getting linked earlier in this thread.

Get ready for the UP uprising.

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Mark Miller Whistle-Stop

Mark Miller

Posted
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Maybe its just me, but did anyone really think this project was going to be anything other than a gigantic sprawl-fest? I mean, sure, they throw around buzz-words like "mixed-use" and "lifestyle center", but given its location, we are getting exactly what I figured we would be getting, only a lot bigger.
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GRDadof3 Ecumenopolis

GRDadof3

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Well, if it makes anyone feel better, I have my doubts that the Village of Orchard Hills on the Beltline will happen any time soon. I tried to get some construction start information from the developers and they were very non-committal about anything. And they said the site plan with the listed tenants was their "vision" of who they thought should go in the development.

You're right GRTP.

There's the American Indians on a canoe:

PAHAMcabelas_statue3.jpg

Bucking Bronco

18620673_1a4bc4592a_m.jpg

Running Deer

statue_large.jpg

There is one that you see at a lot of the Cabela's:

http://www.town-richfield.com/vertical/Sit...EFBD920A%7D.JPG

Haven't named that one yet...

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tamias6 Town

tamias6

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Trying not to sound picky or anything. But terminal illness? My shopping destinations consists of a fair share of big boxes in sprawl-topia. However given my location way and gone out in Walker, they are the closest places I can shop at. Thus is either shop at my nearest big box or burn expensive gas going all the way to DT to shop there. I hope I'm not terminally ill just because I bought a pair of denims on sale at uncle Fred's or some mini-dv tapes for my vidcam at Best Buy.

I seldom hold out any hope for things of this nature, but the shear size of this endeavor is both overwhelming and unfortunate, especially when you do, as I do, hold out hope that our urban places can be revitalized and our rural places can be preserved. Development like this does neither and only proves the total excessiveness of our culture, which may in fact be a symptom of terminal illness.

I think that it has less to do with its location and more to do with the conventional method for the delivery of retail and the power of these predatory larger than life retail chains.

Everyone of these "gigantic sprawl fests" that gets built, is another nail in the coffin of downtowns.

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Mark Miller Whistle-Stop

Mark Miller

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Trying not to sound picky or anything. But terminal illness? My shopping destinations consists of a fair share of big boxes in sprawl-topia. However given my location way and gone out in Walker, they are the closest places I can shop at. Thus is either shop at my nearest big box or burn expensive gas going all the way to DT to shop there. I hope I'm not terminally ill just because I bought a pair of denims on sale at uncle Fred's or some mini-dv tapes for my vidcam at Best Buy.
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GRDadof3 Ecumenopolis

GRDadof3

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If there truly is "demand" for a huge retail development like this for the metro area (which I'm still not sure there is), why has no one proposed something similar in downtown? I'm sure Orchard Park is planning on pulling from the entire Grand Rapids area, so a downtown retail destination would actually be more centrally-located. Is there just not enough land available downtown? Or is it all tied up by land horders?

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Mark Miller Whistle-Stop

Mark Miller

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If there truly is "demand" for a huge retail development like this for the metro area (which I'm still not sure there is), why has no one proposed something similar in downtown? I'm sure Orchard Park is planning on pulling from the entire Grand Rapids area, so a downtown retail destination would actually be more centrally-located. Is there just not enough land available downtown? Or is it all tied up by land horders?
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dbrok Hamlet

dbrok

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Downtown needs a lynch pin. The bookstore will not do. UICA will not do. Little Bohemia will not work. A gaggle of mom and pop neighborhood retailers probably won't work. Target will.

How to get one of these destination retailers to come is the hard part. There are so many things working against the DT. Where do you find all that free parking? where do you get the highway exposure? (Maybe via 131?) What about the demographics (# of households, above a certain income, within a certain radius)? - currently DT can not compete with places like Grandville or even Walker, I guess.

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torgo Town

torgo

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I doubt that Target would ever locate downtown, because it wouldn't do very well. I live 15 minutes from downtown and have two different Target Stores that are closer to my house than a downtown location wuold be. I agree with GRTP that downtown GR needs a draw such as that, but I would argue that it must be something that cannot be found anywhere in the GR area, or at least not easily found. A movie theater, Meijer, Target, or B&N would probably have a hard time DT because we already an abundance of that crap in the 'burbs. Why would I drive to a DT target when there is a suburban Target three minutes from my house? IMO, people are not opposed to going downtown for shopping, but instead, there is no reason for them to go there.

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twoshort Town

twoshort

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I doubt that Target would ever locate downtown, because it wouldn't do very well. I live 15 minutes from downtown and have two different Target Stores that are closer to my house than a downtown location wuold be. I agree with GRTP that downtown GR needs a draw such as that, but I would argue that it must be something that cannot be found anywhere in the GR area, or at least not easily found. A movie theater, Meijer, Target, or B&N would probably have a hard time DT because we already an abundance of that crap in the 'burbs. Why would I drive to a DT target when there is a suburban Target three minutes from my house? IMO, people are not opposed to going downtown for shopping, but instead, there is no reason for them to go there.
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MAU Whistle-Stop

MAU

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Maybe it wouldn't be ideal for you, but I (and I'm sure people who live around me) would like some of those amenities near us as well. I'm 1.6 miles from the center of GR (division/fulton) and none of those stores you mentioned are a quick trip. If I didn't have to drive out to Cascade to go to target (or alpine I guess) ever again that would be great.
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Mark Miller Whistle-Stop

Mark Miller

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I used Target as an example only...certainly something else that is not already available in the burbs would be more reasonable. Whole Foods (current demographics may not work) Trader Joes (probably not enough of a draw), and any number of other places that have been discussed on other threads as wish lists.

All I am saying is that downtown will not be built with a collection of neighborhood type retail. We will continue to piecemeal it together, gaining two, losing one, etc, etc. Neighborhood retail is just that, neighborhood retail. It works in small neighborhood pockets and in burgs like Saugatuck.

The question of why would anyone go downtown when the same stuff is in the burbs is a good one and speaks to larger issues, which is essentially the crux of this thread. This is a 20+ page thread about the manifestation of most likely 500,000+ square feet of retail - going somewhere other than downtown. Retail that downtown desperately needs and most likely wants. Instead of focusing on downtown, development focuses on a greenfield in BFE, and once that retail is there, it is lost to downtown.

So there will be a list of yet more stores that will join the list of Torgo's Meijer, Target, Cineplex, and BN that can not possibly go downtown, because they are a mere 15 minute drive away. Representing yet another lost opportunity.

Why would anyone shop downtown? The same reasons that they shopped downtown prior to 1955. Convenience, critical mass, a destination, a regional hub of commerce, the ambience, because it was the only show in town.

Now we have a regional hub at every interchange, spread further and further away, all making the hole in DT bigger.

This speaks to regional planning (or lack thereof), zoning, highway construction, and the lack of understanding about what a downtown is and how it functions.

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GRDadof3 Ecumenopolis

GRDadof3

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That is the crux of the problem isn't it?

In 1955 the shoppers Big Family Mart most wanted to attract lived in Belknap, Eastown, Baxter, etc and downtown was closeby and convenient.

In 2007, while the trend is slowly reversing, the shoppers Big Box Mart wants to attract live in the burbs...so the stores are in the burbs.

If you pick the target demographic of Target/Lowe's Depot/Barnes-n-Borders their shoppers aren't closer to downtown. They're in the outer-ring. If there were 50,000 target shoppers in 1955 and they all lived within 5 miles of downtown, today's metro GR has 150,000 of them and they're mostly living in the burbs.

It sucks but it's the truth right?

Why aren't there any big-box retailers downtown? Because it's cheaper, easier and a surefire success (from their perspective) to build in a greenfield in suburbia. They're closer to the populace they're trying to attract (mini-van-moms).

It's not the fault of the retailers. It's the fault of the system that encourages them to go out there.

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