Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[levarforever]

I hear that the only other obstacle, assuming congress is a real obstacle to begin with, is the Kirn Memorial Library. From what I understand there have been concerns about revitalizing it. I haven't read the article in Portfolio Weekly yet, but my feeling is that, for years, Norfolk needed to tear down Kirn and build a new main library, because it is run down in some aspects, but mostly, because it is outdated. We need something more state of the art anyway, so I don't think it will be a great loss to begin with except for people who have worked there for years. If I'm not mistaken, wasn't it built in the 1960s?

Edited August 3, 2007 by levarforever

[levarforever]

I'd extend EVMS to the Navy base via ODU ASAP. Not only does it make sense, but it makes it more attractive for Virginia Beach to get in. (VB would have access to ODU and the Navy base.)

As for the alignment, shoot up Colley Ave. to ODU. (I agree that the traffic problems on Hampton Blvd. would be too huge.) It's wide enough.

I think extending to the Navy base is a great idea and basically the logical next step. It would be great for the military community here. Besides, the Navy base is one of the major areas in Norfolk, besides EVMS and Downtown. Connecting all the major stops in Norfolk should be taken care of first, which brings to mind the Norfolk International Airport. You have to throw that into the mix too.

[vdogg]

I hope you're right about the "mere formality". I'm still going to keep my fingers crossed really tight though.

Those weren't my words, those were the words of Congresswoman Thelma Drake. That's why I put it in quotes. If members of congress themselves say it's simply a "formality", and they're the ones doing the review, I'm inclined to believe them. I think we're good.

[skylinefan]

I think extending to the Navy base is a great idea and basically the logical next step. It would be great for the military community here. Besides, the Navy base is one of the major areas in Norfolk, besides EVMS and Downtown. Connecting all the major stops in Norfolk should be taken care of first, which brings to mind the Norfolk International Airport. You have to throw that into the mix too.

Don't forget the Military Highway Corridor. If I remember correctly there is a Military Highway stop.

[kjice2]

in the rendering on plume street, i thought the light rail was going to be in the New HRT headquarters tower (kirn memorial site). But it looks like its just in open air space now

[vaceltic]

I'm no structural engineer, but I think they could build over the light rail later if they wanted to. Plus, I have hopes that projected ridership numbers are conservative. Maybe that will get other jurisdictions on board for LRT faster!

[Padman]

HRT has a relatively new, large and nice headquarters building in Newport News. Some space on the south side would be useful to them, but it could be located anywhere in the downtown area. The library issue really is a problem for Norfolk. We've discussed the existing Kirn building a great deal. Some of us find it architecturally valuable and believe it could be expanded and rehabilitated. I think it's worlds better than those three little mediocrities that everyone is fussing about at the Hilton site, but that's just me and my own perspective. I just don't know if it's worth rehabbing. Who knows, maybe they'll run the LRT through it and designate one train the "Bookmobile."

Oh yes, Vaceltic, I remember that the ridership numbers are conservative. But if the line isn't extended into Va. Beach, probably not.

Edited August 3, 2007 by Padman

[vaceltic]

It will be interesting to see how many people use the LRT from the Newtown stop. That could show how much desire there is from VB residents to use LRT (at least from the Newtown & Kempsville areas).

[Sky06]

It will be interesting to see how many people use the LRT from the Newtown stop. That could show how much desire there is from VB residents to use LRT (at least from the Newtown & Kempsville areas).

I agree. I think people there will use it just to see what it's like, especially if all they are doing is shopping at MacArthur, eating at Granby, etc. If they have to do a lot of running around, they might not be as inclined. But it certainly should get a boost from being new to the area.

Notice the quote from Bobby Scott? You think there might be a push to see it go to the Peninsula down the road?

[cpeakesqr]

Notice the quote from Bobby Scott? You think there might be a push to see it go to the Peninsula down the road?

Probably, but he represents most of Norfolk too. Drake's comment is much more significant, as she represents VA Beach (and a little of Norfolk).

[Henry_Ryto]

HRT has a relatively new, large and nice headquarters building in Newport News. Some space on the south side would be useful to them, but it could be located anywhere in the downtown area. The library issue really is a problem for Norfolk. We've discussed the existing Kirn building a great deal. Some of us find it architecturally valuable and believe it could be expanded and rehabilitated. I think it's worlds better than those three little mediocrities that everyone is fussing about at the Hilton site, but that's just me and my own perspective. I just don't know if it's worth rehabbing. Who knows, maybe they'll run the LRT through it and designate one train the "Bookmobile."

Oh yes, Vaceltic, I remember that the ridership numbers are conservative. But if the line isn't extended into Va. Beach, probably not.

No, HRT HQ is on Victoria Blvd. in Hampton (Route 103). UCAC meetings alternate between there and the Monticello Ave. office in Norfolk.

FYI, the next UCAC meeting is August 22 in Norfolk (6:30 P.M.).

I agree. I think people there will use it just to see what it's like, especially if all they are doing is shopping at MacArthur, eating at Granby, etc. If they have to do a lot of running around, they might not be as inclined. But it certainly should get a boost from being new to the area.

Notice the quote from Bobby Scott? You think there might be a push to see it go to the Peninsula down the road?

There already is a project underway on the Peninsula. They're down to identifying a Minimal Operating Segment in Newport News for what is to eventually be a Williamsburg to Hampton via Newport News line.

Edited August 3, 2007 by Henry_Ryto

[Henry_Ryto]

Probably, but he represents most of Norfolk too. Drake's comment is much more significant, as she represents VA Beach (and a little of Norfolk).

The Virginia Beach City Council holds it's annual Retreat next Friday and Saturday. (Postponed from this week.) It will be interesting to see what - if anything - comes out of there transit-wise.

Edited August 3, 2007 by Henry_Ryto

[lammius]

I'm glad to see the Norfolk MOS moving forward. Within a week after it opens (I don't want to be there opening day), I'll book a flight down to Norfolk and tell the cab driver to take me to Newtown Road Station!

[Padman]

"No, HRT HQ is on Victoria Blvd. in Hampton (Route 103). UCAC meetings alternate between there and the Monticello Ave. office in Norfolk."

Ryto you are. I remember now. I got a speeding ticket heading over there a few years ago for a meeting. Back to the point I was getting at. Do you think they need more space or are they building an empire?

[vdogg]

Wow, the majority of comments in the pilot comments section actually support light rail. I'm shocked.

[urbanvb]

It does seem there is a change in the air if you will about transit in the region. I am really hoping LR will continue on to Va Beach in the near future.

[Henry_Ryto]

"No, HRT HQ is on Victoria Blvd. in Hampton (Route 103). UCAC meetings alternate between there and the Monticello Ave. office in Norfolk."

Ryto you are. I remember now. I got a speeding ticket heading over there a few years ago for a meeting. Back to the point I was getting at. Do you think they need more space or are they building an empire?

They have enough space between the two buildings - for now.

[scm]

I think extending to the Navy base is a great idea and basically the logical next step. It would be great for the military community here.

I really am conflicted about this issue. On one hand, I recognize that NNS is one of the largest employment centers in the region, and a logical target for mass transit.

On the other hand, there are some disturbing facts --- first, the low utilization rates of the current express buses and the fact that NNS has a higher single occupancy vehicle utilization rate (95%) than the region as a whole (83%). Only 3% use carpooing and 1% ride public transportation, despite three dedicated express bus routes. The Federal Government will pay $110/month to government and military who use public transportation or van pools, yet these low utilization rates persist. One has to question if LR is extended to NNS, will it be utilized? Based on current SOV rates, why would you conclude that it would be? Is there something about this workforce population that won't use public transportation no matter how attractive?

The second is an emotional live grenade -- that is the tax base contributions by the commuters we are talking about. Most of the military members pay little to no Virginia taxes -- they retain their out of state residency and are exempt from Virginia income taxes --- yes, they do pay fuel taxes, no matter where they buy their gas. They register their vehicles in their home states and pay no Virginia license fees or city personal property taxes. If they live in government housing, no matter what their state of residency, they pay nothing in real estate taxes. All on base workers -- military, civilian and contractor -- work in buildings that pay nothing in local real estate or business property taxes. I realize that pointing this out, in this community, is akin to heresy. But it still doesn't change the question. Is it better to use local tax dollars to serve HR populations that pay all forms of local taxes?

[Case]

I really am conflicted about this issue. On one hand, I recognize that NNS is one of the largest employment centers in the region, and a logical target for mass transit.

On the other hand, there are some disturbing facts --- first, the low utilization rates of the current express buses and the fact that NNS has a higher single occupancy vehicle utilization rate (95%) than the region as a whole (83%). Only 3% use carpooing and 1% ride public transportation, despite three dedicated express bus routes. The Federal Government will pay $110/month to government and military who use public transportation or van pools, yet these low utilization rates persist. One has to question if LR is extended to NNS, will it be utilized? Based on current SOV rates, why would you conclude that it would be? Is there something about this workforce population that won't use public transportation no matter how attractive?

The second is an emotional live grenade -- that is the tax base contributions by the commuters we are talking about. Most of the military members pay little to no Virginia taxes -- they retain their out of state residency and are exempt from Virginia income taxes --- yes, they do pay fuel taxes, no matter where they buy their gas. They register their vehicles in their home states and pay no Virginia license fees or city personal property taxes. If they live in government housing, no matter what their state of residency, they pay nothing in real estate taxes. All on base workers -- military, civilian and contractor -- work in buildings that pay nothing in local real estate or business property taxes. I realize that pointing this out, in this community, is akin to heresy. But it still doesn't change the question. Is it better to use local tax dollars to serve HR populations that pay all forms of local taxes?

There is a perception difference between rail and bus.. go to any city with developed mass transit. There are some people who regularly take trains but wouldn't be caught dead on a bus.

I don't believe that the federal gov will ever initiate the transportation projects needed in HR, I believe that it is appropriate for Local cities to start projects then pitch our case to the Feds for funds...using our political leverage. Clearly the military would benefit from improved transportation in HR... We should be pulling down massive funds for mass trans, 3rd crossing, etc. Given that VA is becoming a swing state politically and is "must win" for both parties this would be the prime time for our representatives demand Federal spending..... I don't think the 300+ mil Craney Island terminal project pushed by Warren is without political motivations. It can't be a bad thing for VA if the Repubs and Dems both try to "buy" our votes.

Edited August 5, 2007 by Case

[levarforever]

I wonder what role Portsmouth and Chesapeake will play in future light rail expansion. Some areas in Chesapeake and Portsmouth seem to be just a hop-skip away from Norfolk. You could also throw Southside Norfolk in the mix too. Some of the areas like Berkley and Campostella would be a straight shot from Norfolk's proposed 7.4 mile starter line. I'm just theorizing here.

[vdogg]

Looking through the P&C thread I found this image of the Kirn library site.

This has been out for awhile and I guess I never looked at it that closely. The caption reads "Future open space or Transit Related Development". I guess they've always planned on either open space or TOD, I wouldn't view the newer rendering in the pilot as a refection of the latter. It may very well start off as open space and be developed at a later date.

[virginia pe]

Looking through the P&C thread I found this image of the Kirn library site.

This has been out for awhile and I guess I never looked at it that closely. The caption reads "Future open space or Transit Related Development". I guess they've always planned on either open space or TOD, I wouldn't view the newer rendering in the pilot as a refection of the latter. I may very well start off as open space and be developed at a later date.

If light-rail is a success, the Kirn site will become the hottest piece of real estate in downtown. Developers will be lining up for the rights to build a Class A office building over the light-rail station. It's a huge marketing point to have public transportation right inside your building. There is no need for HRT to develop this site. The market will take care of it.

[RJWGMU]

In response to the idea that military people will not ride LR because they don't ride the bus already, I have two points to make:

1) While the bus is express, it still takes forever. LR would be much quicker and more direct. Because of this, people would be more likely to ride it.

2) People would rather be seen stuck in traffic than riding a bus. I am in Fairfax for most of the year and I can either drive to the metro and pay to park to go into DC, or ride a bus for free with my ID. What do I do? Drive... Partly because of my first reason, but mostly because I don't want to be seen on a bus. I believe that is the mentality of most people except for the huge cities like New York and Chicago.

So yes, while current ridership is a problem, riding a train versus a bus will bring in more people.

[okinawatyphoon]

I just moved from a military base, and I can tell you that I would not be caught dead on a bus, but a train is a whole different story. Trains are so much more reliable and they just have a whole different (better) feeling than a bus. I really think that LR would catch on on bases, but the only problem is security with checkpoints and such.

[lammius]

I just moved from a military base, and I can tell you that I would not be caught dead on a bus, but a train is a whole different story. Trains are so much more reliable and they just have a whole different (better) feeling than a bus. I really think that LR would catch on on bases, but the only problem is security with checkpoints and such.

The way you'd probably do that is to have a station outside the base gates that is the terminus of the public civilian system. Then you force a transfer across the platform onto the base system. Whatever security is necessary (swiping a military ID to get through the turnstile, etc) could be installed on the platform. This would be a coordinated timed-transfer so when the civilian train arrives and discharges passengers, the navy train (rhymes with gravy train.. hmm..) would be there already, waiting for the transferring passengers (no waiting for a connection). The only problem is that work stations are so spread out all over that base, how do you make sure the system efficiently meets desired trip ends? There would also have to be provisions made for how trains would share street space with aircraft, cranes, and other huge vehicles that are often seen driving down navy base streets!