Norfolk Light Rail and Transit

[rusthebuss]

The light rail's last hurdle - a commitment of federal money - is expected in September.

[4307]

Prepare to ride the Tide!

The name has been picked

Good thing it wasn't called the Hampster!

[vdogg]

Good thing it wasn't called the Hampster!

No kidding! I like the tide, it has a nice ring to it.

[skylinefan]

I like the name the Tide sounds sleek and smooth. I just wish many of nay-sayers on the Pilot would shut-up and stop impeding progress. Waste of money? How about spending millions upon millions on widening roads which only encourage more traffic. What is it with this anti-tax bent that has taken over not only Hampton Roads but Virginia. I truly believe that a light rail system in Norfolk will propel the city into the big leagues. Name one city the size of Norfolk with a light rail system?

[brikkman]

I like the name the Tide sounds sleek and smooth. I just wish many of nay-sayers on the Pilot would shut-up and stop impeding progress. Waste of money? How about spending millions upon millions on widening roads which only encourage more traffic. What is it with this anti-tax bent that has taken over not only Hampton Roads but Virginia. I truly believe that a light rail system in Norfolk will propel the city into the big leagues. Name one city the size of Norfolk with a light rail system?

I hope so, I'm just concerned of the limitations we may have in the future with regards to Norfolk. I'm concerned that our current road system will not allow for this to integrate easily without shutting down roads (ultimately making a bunch of one ways/narrow streets). An elevated system would definitely cut down on those concerns, just not enough money to pull that off. Hopefully we can have a combination of the two in the future. I definitely believe it will spread (there are too many bennies for it not to spread, Norfolk to the ocean front, Norfolk to NC, Norfolk to Chesapeake, and lord Norfolk to Hampton, Portsmouth and Newport news) across the region. I believe the buy and sell will rely on the feeder buses to be steady, frequent, and ability to reach areas traditional bus routes by pass. It

[Chesapeake Pirate]

What is it with this anti-tax bent that has taken over not only Hampton Roads but Virginia.

I think the answer is the well earned lack of faith and trust in VDOT to effectively manage hard earned tax dollars. Couple that with tight pocketbooks in general and it's easy to understand skepticism over even higher taxes and fees. We don't all agree on government spending priorities, so this leads to questions from all directions.

[skylinefan]

I think the answer is the well earned lack of faith and trust in VDOT to effectively manage hard earned tax dollars. Couple that with tight pocketbooks in general and it's easy to understand skepticism over even higher taxes and fees. We don't all agree on government spending priorities, so this leads to questions from all directions.

I think people are thinking that the VDOT of today is the same VDOT of the George Allen years when he decimated the department by laying off experienced managers and engineers in order to fund a misdirected tax cut. I understand that the VDOT of today was greatly improved by Mark Warner and is much more efficient in such things as contractor oversight.

I am no fan of tax increases or wasteful spending, but this light rail system seems like a good use of the public's money. I think for many in Virginia this concept is new and revolutionary. In reality we are just returning to the days when people routinely used trolley cars and rail to get to and from work and play. The timing for rail is perfect with the world's increasing concern over the burning of fossil fuels and the strain that increasing traffic is having on our aging underfunded infrastructure. Norfolk and Hampton Roads I predict will be much better off with Light Rail then without it.

[scm]

Name one city the size of Norfolk with a light rail system?

Three, actually (when you consider MSAs) -- Buffalo, Salt Lake, and Sacramento.

I agree that the LR system is a HUGE plus -- but it will only reach the full potential when it is an integrated system. I have had the pleasure of living in a city where you didn't need a car (and I didn't own one for a year and a half). Until a large percentage of the HR population can realistically look at one less car in the household because of our mass transportation, then we will have an incomplete system.

That said, you have to start somewhere and the Minimum Operable Segment proposed is just that.

[Glassoul]

Three, actually (when you consider MSAs) -- Buffalo, Salt Lake, and Sacramento.

I agree that the LR system is a HUGE plus -- but it will only reach the full potential when it is an integrated system. I have had the pleasure of living in a city where you didn't need a car (and I didn't own one for a year and a half). Until a large percentage of the HR population can realistically look at one less car in the household because of our mass transportation, then we will have an incomplete system.

That said, you have to start somewhere and the Minimum Operable Segment proposed is just that.

The most logical first extension will be to the Oceanfront and then to NSN.

[Chesapeake Pirate]

The most logical first extension will be to the Oceanfront and then to NSN.

I think Town Center is a better bet. Va. Beach doesn't want locals driving to the beach now. Can't imagine they would want anyone being able to get to their oceanfront so easily and inexpensively.

[lil-bear]

I agree, Town Center would be a better bet. Then the Oceanfront. A stop around First Colonial Rd. would be good with a bus route connecting the LR station to NAS Oceana.

[Henry_Ryto]

The most logical first extension will be to the Oceanfront and then to NSN.

"The most logical first extension" would be EVMS to Norfolk NOB via ODU. That makes it much more attractive for Virginia Beach to get in.

As for the Beach, do we go in one leap (Newtown Rd.-Oceanfront) or in two steps (Newtown Rd.-Town Center, then Town Center-Oceanfront)? I would have long bet the latter, but I now believe it could be the former:

1. The ongoing Citywide Transit Plan will have to answer the Norfolk Southern ROW question, likely as one piece.

2. The Resort business community regular talks about a transit connection Resort Area - Town Center. LRT would answer it.

[scm]

"The most logical first extension" would be EVMS to Norfolk NOB via ODU. That makes it much more attractive for Virginia Beach to get in.

Mr. Ryto -- would you explain that logic chain, please? Why does that make LR more attractive to VB? What destinations attractive to VB would be served by this routing? If you think that a NOB destination is attractive to VB, then how will you move passengers around NOB once they arrive? Where would they orginate in VB w/ a NOB destination?

Is the desirable destination for VB ODU and not NOB?

I would suggest that after an extension to the oceanfront, the planning that needs to start now is for inclusion of a LR tube in the new Midtown tunnel to link Portsmouth to Norfolk -- possibly down Effingham, near the Naval Hospital, all the way to the shipyard. It would be a shame for that tunnel to not include a way for LR to extend to Portsmouth. We are burdened with water choke points, and limited, expensive solutions to the throughput challenge. Mass transit can help solve the chokepoint capacity problems for years in the future -- but the planning needs to start now.

[Henry_Ryto]

Mr. Ryto -- would you explain that logic chain, please? Why does that make LR more attractive to VB? What destinations attractive to VB would be served by this routing? If you think that a NOB destination is attractive to VB, then how will you move passengers around NOB once they arrive? Where would they orginate in VB w/ a NOB destination?

Is the desirable destination for VB ODU and not NOB?

I would suggest that after an extension to the oceanfront, the planning that needs to start now is for inclusion of a LR tube in the new Midtown tunnel to link Portsmouth to Norfolk -- possibly down Effingham, near the Naval Hospital, all the way to the shipyard. It would be a shame for that tunnel to not include a way for LR to extend to Portsmouth. We are burdened with water choke points, and limited, expensive solutions to the throughput challenge. Mass transit can help solve the chokepoint capacity problems for years in the future -- but the planning needs to start now.

Simple: Navy base transit. Being able to take the train to the base would eliminate car trips there, plus HRT Route 19.

If you read my quoted post from hamptonroads.com, I agree with you on using the Midtown Tunnel to take LRT to Portsmouth. It might not take a third tube, but maybe the second tube wide enough with a barrier between the train tracks and traffic lanes.

[vdogg]

It's a few pages back so i'll re-quote it for good measure.

I see the need for some sort of service; the major bus routes at peak periods are too busy to be handled well by the "toasters on wheels." I would have prefered BRT, but it's dead and LRT is about to become a reality. The Starter Line roughly paralells HRT Route 20, which carries 1.1 million passengers per year. As a regular 20 rider, I can tell you the Starter Line will run SRO at peak periods and majority full midday. As for Virginia Beach, expect light rail down the Norfolk Southern Right-of-Way to be in the pending Citywide Transit Plan. As for Portsmouth, build the new second tube of the Midtown Tunnel wide enough to put a rail line in in addition to the two traffic lanes. Finally, I prefer "Tide" as the name; we already have "The Wave" trolley service in Virginia Beach.

- Henry Ryto - Virginia Beach

[rusthebuss]

if they were smart they would tie Damneck, Oceana and NOB together with LR

[lil-bear]

if they were smart they would tie Damneck, Oceana and NOB together with LR

That could work for a future route.

from Dam Neck follow General Booth all the way to Pacific Ave. then to where it turns into Atlantic Ave. stop at Fort Story, through First Landing St. Park down Shore Dr., by Little Creek Base, into Norfolkm turn on to Little Creek Rd. all the way down until Ward Corner then somehow follow Terminal Blvd not too far from NOB, then off to NN/Hampton through the 3rd crossing!!!!

Oceana will have to have a shuttle bus to the LR station!

[rusthebuss]

That could work for a future route.

from Dam Neck follow General Booth all the way to Pacific Ave. then to where it turns into Atlantic Ave. stop at Fort Story, through First Landing St. Park down Shore Dr., by Little Creek Base, into Norfolkm turn on to Little Creek Rd. all the way down until Ward Corner then somehow follow Terminal Blvd not too far from NOB, then off to NN/Hampton through the 3rd crossing!!!!

Oceana will have to have a shuttle bus to the LR station!

There can be a line from Damneck down General Booth to Oceana blvd. down to vabeach blvd or a station that ties into the one from TC.

Also the old NS right away ends at Oceana

There use to be rock grinding company called Vulcan there but they moved all their operations to Ballentine in Norfolk. That is why NS abandoned the line

[orulz]

Also the old NS right away ends at Oceana

There use to be rock grinding company called Vulcan there but they moved all their operations to Ballentine in Norfolk. That is why NS abandoned the line

After a bit of research:

The railroad right-of-way actually ends at Birdneck, but the remainder of the right-of-way east to Pacific is owned by the city, and used as a rail-trail. The fact that the right-of-way is still intact and owned by the city is good, but the fact that it is a rail-trail could be a hurdle to making LRT happen. If VB pursues light rail to the oceanfront, I hope they don't go the route of "keep the trail like it is; put the light rail on the street" for that segment. You can bet that neighborhood residents will STRONGLY advocate that position. But the truth is, the Norfolk Avenue right-of-way combined with the former railroad right-of-way is plenty wide enough to fit the road, the light rail, and a 12' wide sidewalk to replace the trail.

At any rate, light rail just works better when it's in a dedicated right-of-way, rather than mixed traffic.

It would make sense for the LRT to turn north once it hits Pacific. It would be nice if there were some way to keep the trains off-street through the oceanfront area, but aside from a ridiculously expensive elevated structure or massive acquisitions of some pretty expensive real estate, that just won't happen. But at least keep it off-street west of the oceanfront...

[Henry_Ryto]

After a bit of research:

The railroad right-of-way actually ends at Birdneck, but the remainder of the right-of-way east to Pacific is owned by the city, and used as a rail-trail. The fact that the right-of-way is still intact and owned by the city is good, but the fact that it is a rail-trail could be a hurdle to making LRT happen. If VB pursues light rail to the oceanfront, I hope they don't go the route of "keep the trail like it is; put the light rail on the street" for that segment. You can bet that neighborhood residents will STRONGLY advocate that position. But the truth is, the Norfolk Avenue right-of-way combined with the former railroad right-of-way is plenty wide enough to fit the road, the light rail, and a 12' wide sidewalk to replace the trail.

At any rate, light rail just works better when it's in a dedicated right-of-way, rather than mixed traffic.

It would make sense for the LRT to turn north once it hits Pacific. It would be nice if there were some way to keep the trains off-street through the oceanfront area, but aside from a ridiculously expensive elevated structure or massive acquisitions of some pretty expensive real estate, that just won't happen. But at least keep it off-street west of the oceanfront...

Politics will keep LRT out of the Resort Area. Maybe northeast from Birdneck to the convention center. Feeder buses from there into the Resort Area.

Under a $5 million Federal grant, HRT is soon looking to buy 30-foot hybrid buses to begin replacing the overage VB Wave trolley fleet. The purchase has been endorsed by the Resort Advisory Commission (on which I sit) and now awaits City Council's approval. $5 million will buy 14-15 buses; the current trolley fleet is 32. A second $5 million grant application is in the works.

Oceana is close enough to the Norfolk Southern ROW that it can easily be served by a feeder bus route.

[vdogg]

This is the type of thing that will help make light rail more attractive. I hope they plan on similar assets for the rail line.

HRT offers new express buses/wifi

The new service will use a fleet of 29 buses dedicated to serving regional downtowns and employment centers and promises to zip commuters directly to their destinations with limited stops in between. In Hampton Roads, where roughly 92 percent of all commuters drive to work, HRT will offer buses with larger seats and possibly on-board Wi-Fi routers that would allow customers to check their e-mail or cruise Web sites while someone else does the driving.

[orulz]

Politics will keep LRT out of the Resort Area. Maybe northeast from Birdneck to the convention center. Feeder buses from there into the Resort Area.

You seem extremely sure of that.. but why? I've never been more than a visitor at VB so I'm not familiar with the political landscape.

[brikkman]

LRT on Atlantic isn't a bad idea, even though it would require separate line. If they opt not to do that, I would recommend blocking car traffic and only let the busses drive down that street.

Sort of like Denver's 16st Mall...

Edited June 29, 2007 by brikkman

[mikeas]

LRT on Atlantic isn't a bad idea, even though it would require separate line. If they opt not to do that, I would recommend blocking car traffic and only let the busses drive down that street.

Sort of like Denver's 16st Mall...

They have to let the cars get to the parking garages at the hotels though... It would be a good idea to atleast have a light rail/trolley junction. During tourist season mass transit is needed at the oceanfront. You can't park and you can drive faster than idle on Atlantic.

[Henry_Ryto]

You seem extremely sure of that.. but why? I've never been more than a visitor at VB so I'm not familiar with the political landscape.

To quote a senior city staffer, "The Resort Area is the Balkans." You have the three trade associations (Virginia Beach Hotel/Motel Association, Virginia Beach Restaurant Association, and Resort Retailers Association) plus those three have their own factions. Getting a consensus on an issue like LRT would be a nightmare; just look at what happened with BRT.