Fairgrounds Speedway Racetrack expansion to 30,000 seats

[Argo]

33 minutes ago, natethegreat said:

Let’s leave NASCAR in the 20th century where it belongs 

Nah. NASCAR fans make good money and spend it as well. Plus they're not engaged in criminality. There are events and their demos that literally wreck other cities they occur in.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Argo

[Melrose]

15 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

bring up parking for events at the racetrack I'll call for each of their recalls because they didn't give a crap about that when planning the soccer stadium.

These are two different, distinct parking plans.  Soccer is an overwhelmingly local crowd of (largely) season ticketholders, coming from nearby and who can become accustomed to habits  game-over-game, season-over-season.   A NASCAR crowd is going to be much more tourist based/more regional, likely much more car driven and less likely to understand where and where not to park, since they will only be coming into this area once or twice a year.   If  BMS pretends that it is all the same,  then they will have much much bigger struggles than soccer.   

20 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

I believe that BMS should be required to pay all debt service, just like the soccer stadium,

Essential.  BMS is bringing the big race that make the new speedway (supposedly) possible, Metro can never get these races on its own.  BMS has to be on the hook for the whole debt.  

 

24 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

then why would the mayor what to give him advance copy of the proposed deal?

Cooper is hiding the deal from everyone,  which seems to be his general operating procedure.   That shouldn't be turned around to be the fault  of any one CM (note- multiple CM's are quoted in the story as knowing nothing) .   

[Bos2Nash]

19 minutes ago, Melrose said:

These are two different, distinct parking plans.  Soccer is an overwhelmingly local crowd of (largely) season ticketholders, coming from nearby and who can become accustomed to habits  game-over-game, season-over-season.   A NASCAR crowd is going to be much more tourist based/more regional, likely much more car driven and less likely to understand where and where not to park, since they will only be coming into this area once or twice a year.   If  BMS pretends that it is all the same,  then they will have much much bigger struggles than soccer.   

Not necessarily, there are alot of local race fans that understand the complexity of motor racing. Also the capacity of the racetrack will be around the same as the soccer stadium, no? Its not like they are going to be able to pack 50,000 race fans around the speedway.

All comes down to signage and enforcement. Nashville is notoriously BAD at any form of signage that indicates what cars/bikes/transit in general should be doing and going. In reality they are very much the same in that they are major sporting events. These events should not be relying on "an overwhelmingly local crowd ... coming from nearby and who can become accustomed to habits  game-over-game, season-over-season" to understand how these events operate as that is just sloppy practice. Those understanding are more of a benefit to locals rather than a reliance from operators. Siloing soccer away from the racetrack was the single largest, knucklehead move that was made. By not having a holistic plan for both venues owned by the same entity, with knowledge that events would occur at both venues was shamefully short sighted.

[Melrose]

14 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

Siloing soccer away from the racetrack was the single largest, knucklehead move that was made.

That is completely on Cooper and BMS.   There was  money to renovate the track alongside the new expo buildings.   That was put on hold  because of the BMS negotiations.    And the BMS deal can't get done because BMS won't cover the debt and the project keeps getting more and more expensive.  

15 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

Not necessarily, there are alot of local race fans that understand the complexity of motor racing

That is not how BMS is marketing their proposal.  They are talking about it as a major event and big tourism draw, it has to be if it is going to make enough money to pay for the project.  The pieces have never quite added up.  

[Bos2Nash]

47 minutes ago, Melrose said:

That is completely on Cooper and BMS.   There was  money to renovate the track alongside the new expo buildings.   That was put on hold  because of the BMS negotiations.    And the BMS deal can't get done because BMS won't cover the debt and the project keeps getting more and more expensive.  

I would argue that that bag was handed to Cooper as the soccer stadium and 10-acre master plan was done without giving any consideration to the race track. I do not believe any of the money for the expo buildings was intended to go to the racetrack. I never read any of that and I do not believe it was included in any of the at nauseum discussion on this board. There was an initial $50 million for the expo and infrastructure and the budget on that was blown and that was part of the cost overrun (along with additional debt service) that Cooper somehow got Ingram to come back to the table for - even though he (Ingram) had no reason to. 

Using the soccer benchmark of $7,500 bond dollars per seat, even if the racetrack maxxed out at 15,000 seats (which I think will be higher) that would be looking at 112.5 million in bonds based on precedent (the currently budget is only saying 100 million, so we are already discounting racing - a charter protected use - against soccer). Now if BMS is not going to cover the debt service, than hopefully Cooper tells them to pound sand (we are in agreement on this clearly). 

1 hour ago, Melrose said:

That is not how BMS is marketing their proposal.  They are talking about it as a major event and big tourism draw, it has to be if it is going to make enough money to pay for the project.  The pieces have never quite added up.  

Soccer has done the same thing. These major sporting events are all regional and have a big draw. One of the only reasons the soccer pieces are lining up is because they also got 10 acres of land to develop on for added revenue. That benefit will not be extended to the racetrack. 

[Bos2Nash]

4 hours ago, natethegreat said:

Let’s leave NASCAR in the 20th century where it belongs 

Very 20th Century figures right here...

[samsonh]

30 minutes ago, Bos2Nash said:

Very 20th Century figures right here...

Is this supposed to be good or bad? I see the main series trailing or barely beating NFL preseason games.

[Argo]

3 minutes ago, samsonh said:

Is this supposed to be good or bad? I see the main series trailing or barely beating NFL preseason games.

Looks like it beats its next door neighbor soccer by a country mile.

[samsonh]

5 minutes ago, Argo said:

Looks like it beats its next door neighbor soccer by a country mile.

Next door soccer is able to pay it's own bills, something Nascar doesn't seem like it can do or else we would have it

[Argo]

2 hours ago, samsonh said:

Next door soccer is able to pay it's own bills, something Nascar doesn't seem like it can do or else we would have it

Maybe they have the money maybe they dont. majah league sacah had it's hand out too until they were forced to pay for it themselves. At this point sacah is on the level of lacross and rugby.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Argo

[Luvemtall]

IMO, and don’t get me wrong I’ve been a fan since the 1960’s . NASCAR isn’t anywhere close as it once was, I remember going to Daytona, Talladaga, etc back in the prime days of the 60’s -70’s and I have been to them again in recent years. There’s no comparison, not even close. And they did it to themselves, National Association of StockCar Racing , not the association of the most popular people! They took away the core of the whole idea, race on Sunday - buy on Monday it was about the cars , not the celebrity. Give me a break, sushi served at Daytona …No No No !  So  related to this topic of Bms with the fairgrounds track , I don’t think the numbers will work for them. The renovation and operational cost vs the income from the one or two major races a year will not generate the revenue to make it profitable. I understand fully the passion of the local racing circuit, but those will not offset the cost of operations for those days. Remember any company wanting to be involved with this, is in it only for the money .. profits, not because they are passionate for the sport, regardless of what they try to say and sell to the public.

[Melrose]

22 hours ago, Bos2Nash said:

I do not believe any of the money for the expo buildings was intended to go to the racetrack.

Will dig this up for you.  The first phase of "Fairgrounds Improvements"  absolutely included money for racetrack upgrades....  That got put on hold because BMS started floating around.  

[japan]

19 hours ago, samsonh said:

Is this supposed to be good or bad? I see the main series trailing or barely beating NFL preseason games.

I wouldn't compare anything to the NFL.  An NFL preseason game beat the Yankees Red Sox game a few weeks back.  NFL is a juggernaut...

[Melrose]

On 8/24/2022 at 10:03 AM, Melrose said:

Will dig this up for you.  The first phase of "Fairgrounds Improvements"  absolutely included money for racetrack upgrades....  That got put on hold because BMS started floating around.  

@Bos2NashFWIW, here are links to meeting minutes where speedway renovations were being discussed in 2018-2019, as part of that phase of renovations and new expo building work,   including Bristol's proposal delaying the speedway work. The meetings don't appear to be on Youtube.  

https://www.nashville.gov/sites/default/files/2021-12/FairBd-180508m.pdf?ct=1638977867

https://www.nashville.gov/sites/default/files/2021-12/FairBd-180612m.pdf?ct=1638977807

https://www.nashville.gov/sites/default/files/2021-12/FairBd-181009m.pdf?ct=1638977374

https://www.nashville.gov/sites/default/files/2021-12/FairBd-190416m.pdf?ct=1638911874

 

[Bos2Nash]

34 minutes ago, Melrose said:

@Bos2NashFWIW, here are links to meeting minutes where speedway renovations were being discussed in 2018-2019, as part of that phase of renovations and new expo building work,   including Bristol's proposal delaying the speedway work. The meetings don't appear to be on Youtube.  

https://www.nashville.gov/sites/default/files/2021-12/FairBd-180508m.pdf?ct=1638977867

https://www.nashville.gov/sites/default/files/2021-12/FairBd-180612m.pdf?ct=1638977807

https://www.nashville.gov/sites/default/files/2021-12/FairBd-181009m.pdf?ct=1638977374

https://www.nashville.gov/sites/default/files/2021-12/FairBd-190416m.pdf?ct=1638911874

 

Appreciate you providing this information. Looking through them, I could not find where it made reference to speedway enhancements under the original agreement for soccer. There was references made that it was in the budget as associated with Fair Park, but they were put on hold. This hold was put in place in October 2018, which is long before Cooper was mayor. Sure, he was an at-large council member, but Bristol at one point walked away prior to him becoming mayor.

That all being said, a minor grandstand renovation project in conjunction with Fair Park is a far cry from a full redevelopment around the speedway that can host one of the most popular - arguably the most popular - form of motorsport in the country. Trying to entirely blame Cooper and BMS about not having an upgraded speedway is laughable at best. The project was put on hold under the Berry administration, never approached under Briley and Cooper has gotten as far as a Letter of Intent and needs to work out the financing. It was Berry/Briley who siloed the racetrack out of the larger redevelopment conversation because a lipstick on a pig "improvement" of the grandstand was not going to do anything for the speedway other than make legislators feel good about kinda sorta appeasing the racetrack crowd while pumping over 250 million in bonds to a state of the art facility next door. 

Again, I completely agree that any deal with BMS/SMI needs to hold them accountable to all debt service. I have been saying right along - even during the soccer/10-acre negotiations - that the speedway should get the same terms as the soccer stadium. Metro puts up the bonds, BMS/SMI signs a lease that makes them responsible for the debt. It appears that Cooper has been the only mayor even slightly working toward that. The other two didn't care about the speedway.

The most distinct parking difference between the two is that the speedway is able to provide parking "for the locals" while the soccer stadium cannot. Otherwise it is the exact same parking plan and that is entirely at the fault of Metro/Ownership/Sports Authority/Berry-Briley administrations for not considering how the speedway could benefit from such a venue right next door and could serve as another venue that would need parking. 

[Nbasler24]

I'm curious how today's announcement regarding North Wilkesboro Speedway affects the talks between SMI, NASCAR, and the city. The speedway, which has largely sat unused and untouched since it last hosted a race in 1996, is back on the NASCAR schedule next year and hosting the All-Star Race. Even with some minor renovations in 2021 and 2022 to make the track operable again for racing last month, I would argue that the North Wilkesboro track is in much worse shape than current Fairgrounds Speedway. The infrastructure around the track is also worse. Very interested to see if SMI pulls the plug on Fairgrounds project to focus on fully bringing back North Wilkesboro. Local and state governments have been easier to work with as well (I believe NC General Assembly allocated $14M for infrastructure needs around the track in their most recent budget).  This also makes sense why SMI has been so quiet lately re: Fairgrounds Speedway because getting this deal to the finish line would have been no small task and getting the track ready by next May is going to be a feat in and of itself.

I personally think that Fairgrounds Speedway (and Nashville in general) is too good of an opportunity for NASCAR to pass up and if the renovation does come to fruition, they will make a spot on the NASCAR schedule. Most likely at the cost of the track in Lebanon. Only so many spots available on the NASCAR schedule and in no way will they add races to the current 38 (36 points races + 2 exhibition).  No one (and I mean no one) in the NASCAR community truly thought that North Wilkesboro would host another Cup race, so there is hope!

[titanhog]

3 hours ago, Nbasler24 said:

I'm curious how today's announcement regarding North Wilkesboro Speedway affects the talks between SMI, NASCAR, and the city. The speedway, which has largely sat unused and untouched since it last hosted a race in 1996, is back on the NASCAR schedule next year and hosting the All-Star Race. Even with some minor renovations in 2021 and 2022 to make the track operable again for racing last month, I would argue that the North Wilkesboro track is in much worse shape than current Fairgrounds Speedway. The infrastructure around the track is also worse. Very interested to see if SMI pulls the plug on Fairgrounds project to focus on fully bringing back North Wilkesboro. Local and state governments have been easier to work with as well (I believe NC General Assembly allocated $14M for infrastructure needs around the track in their most recent budget).  This also makes sense why SMI has been so quiet lately re: Fairgrounds Speedway because getting this deal to the finish line would have been no small task and getting the track ready by next May is going to be a feat in and of itself.

I personally think that Fairgrounds Speedway (and Nashville in general) is too good of an opportunity for NASCAR to pass up and if the renovation does come to fruition, they will make a spot on the NASCAR schedule. Most likely at the cost of the track in Lebanon. Only so many spots available on the NASCAR schedule and in no way will they add races to the current 38 (36 points races + 2 exhibition).  No one (and I mean no one) in the NASCAR community truly thought that North Wilkesboro would host another Cup race, so there is hope!

I think if NASCAR were able to choose between the track in Gladeville and the Fairgrounds track, they’d like to have the Fairgrounds.  Character, history and uniqueness win out in the current climate.  I think they just want to make sure they have a Nashville date.  Problem are the NIMBYs who don’t want it in their backyards even though it’s been there longer than their backyards.

[MLBrumby]

Generally agree, with one exception... very very very limited seating. 

[titanhog]

4 hours ago, MLBrumby said:

Generally agree, with one exception... very very very limited seating. 

Talking about the Fairgrounds?  Aren’t they trying to get it up to 30k?  That’s about the size NASCAR is actually looking for…something in the 30-50k range instead of the behemoth tracks that were built with over 100k seats.  Yeah…it’s nice to pack out an insane venue like that…but once things cool off (like they have)…it’s better to have a packed house everywhere with people begging for tickets.  They overbuilt.  

The good thing is that you now have a new generation of race fans…and a larger group than before the crazy growth of the 90’s and 2000’s.  

[samsonh]

15 hours ago, titanhog said:

I think if NASCAR were able to choose between the track in Gladeville and the Fairgrounds track, they’d like to have the Fairgrounds.  Character, history and uniqueness win out in the current climate.  I think they just want to make sure they have a Nashville date.  Problem are the NIMBYs who don’t want it in their backyards even though it’s been there longer than their backyards.

The bigger issue is clearly with financing. As you have said many times before, there has been racing there a long time. But with a project that will cost over 100 million and only a few race dates to cover that debt service, I am not sure it is really feasible. 

[Bos2Nash]

17 minutes ago, samsonh said:

The bigger issue is clearly with financing. As you have said many times before, there has been racing there a long time. But with a project that will cost over 100 million and only a few race dates to cover that debt service, I am not sure it is really feasible. 

Financing will absolutely be the crutch of this proposal. A Nascar Cup race tickets sell at around 85 to 100 per ticket for the worst seats and then when you factor in better seats - closer to 200 per ticket - plus concessions, plus infield tickets, plus pre-race festivities plus musical events plus special events, I think it is pretty reasonable to presume 100 million could be covered over 30 years. Races wouldn't be the sole thing paying back the bonds. While only one Cup level event would come per year, bring in the World of Outlaws like mentioned in the minutes (those are actually really cool races), the Whelen Modified Series, local races. The modernized race track will attract things.

Again, Metro set the precedent with soccer with providing bonds to sporting venues of ±$7,500 per seat. even without expanding the racetrack beyond the 15,000 currently there that equates to 112.5 million in bonds based on the precedent. So a 100 million renovation is already discounting racing's revenue potential and seeing as folks want to limit the racetrack to one major event per year while soccer gets 17 major events per year, I think a 12.5 million discount on a Charter protected use is the least the city can do. 

Again, all of this is predicated on BMS/SMI paying for 100% of the debt service though. If that doesn't happen, Metro would hopefully walk away.

[Nbasler24]

There's really only been one person in the NASCAR community that has truly put forth an effort to make this Fairgrounds Speedway project work. That's Marcus Smith with SMI. His company now owns the speedway in Lebanon/Gladeville and his personal renovation/revival efforts are now focused on North Wilkesboro for the foreseeable future. I just don't see everything coming together for this project.

[Bos2Nash]

5 minutes ago, Nbasler24 said:

There's really only been one person in the NASCAR community that has truly put forth an effort to make this Fairgrounds Speedway project work. That's Marcus Smith with SMI. His company now owns the speedway in Lebanon/Gladeville and his personal renovation/revival efforts are now focused on North Wilkesboro for the foreseeable future. I just don't see everything coming together for this project.

While North Wilkesboro will receive a ton of attention from the ownership point of view, I don't think that stops their long term goal of returning to the Fairgrounds. The revival of NW is just another indication that SMI and Nascar are looking to get back to some of these historic tracks and seeing as how sold on Nashville Nascar is, the Fairgrounds continue to make more and more sense. I think the Fairgrounds renovations are also a lot more intense than NW's, not to mention NW has received 22 million in American Rescue Funds plus another 4 million from the state government in NC.

[titanhog]

The biggest issue with the Fairgrounds is that as a company, you have to be tied to Metro government…so you don’t get to call all the shots.  When you’re investing that kind of money and not owning the track…there’s a bit more risk.  I’m not sure if that’s the hold up to getting the deal done or not.

[Bos2Nash]

1 hour ago, titanhog said:

The biggest issue with the Fairgrounds is that as a company, you have to be tied to Metro government…so you don’t get to call all the shots.  When you’re investing that kind of money and not owning the track…there’s a bit more risk.  I’m not sure if that’s the hold up to getting the deal done or not.

I alluded to this previously as well. The soccer team does not own the soccer stadium, but they gained financial incentive by getting a massive ground lease on 10-acres of land around the stadium. There is no such leverage for the racetrack (again, part of the whole siloing off the racetrack frustration) to gain financial gain outside of racetrack related events. I'm sure that is part of why SMI is not completely willing to take on all the burden of the cost of renovation.

Unfortunately I feel that the soccer stadium plan royally screwed the racetrack. I'm not saying that getting MLS screwed the racetrack, but rather the planning exercise that went into the stadium screwed the racetrack.