CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[dubone]

Mind blowingly awesome.   We are guaranteed to not throw money at sprawl-serving 12-lane freeways.  That is the best-way of avoiding some of the issues we are talking about. 

[dcharlotte]

I would agree - selling off that asset and making sure that it cannot be midlessly expanded is actually a huge positive. It will ensure that a large node of office can only be created at Northlake (two interstates connecting, logical place), but not at every exit along the interstate. It will also ensure the node that is built at this interchange is not large and unmanageable for the region.

 

In Atlanta if you're going to build a new transit line to downtown it is worthless because nobody lives or works there. That's like building a new line to South Park - does it come from the North via Uptown, the south, east, or the west? Each directional would need their own access, much like Uptown, to be able to feed the area with viable transit. 

[ah59396]

more lanes aren't the answer, but it seems we will never learn. I had the absolute pleasure of sitting in traffic in THREE lanes of 485 traffic as opposed to the old two lanes down near Pineville yesterday. It was a real treat for me. Solid investment.

[mjcatl2]

Let me elaborate - I wasn't insinuating that more lanes are the answer, but it's ridiculous that the state would tie its hands.  If limiting poorly planned sprawl is a byproduct, great, but at the same time, I don't see sprawl not happening.

 

 

In Atlanta if you're going to build a new transit line to downtown it is worthless because nobody lives or works there. That's like building a new line to South Park - does it come from the North via Uptown, the south, east, or the west? Each directional would need their own access, much like Uptown, to be able to feed the area with viable transit.

 

It's terrible because the only MARTA expansion is going to up 400 (good in itself) but Cobb still won't have any, among other areas and Cobb will soon have the Braves but no MARTA or any transit expansion to ease the massive pain that is coming.

[seth0423]

Instead of building new transit, we definitely need transit to southpark, ballantyne and out to the airport. If the commuter rail to LKN could work out,  everything would be fine. And if we had more than 6 trains per day, the models would be better. Charlotte would be the perfect city to set up a hub of commuter rail (Salisbury, Monroe, Rock Hill, Gastonia, and Lake Norman) because of the suburban lifestyle. Especially when our interstates are becoming more and more packed, and a complete redoing of I-77 south of charlotte will cost over a billion dollars. Why not take that money, and develop the transit network.

[tusculan]

I don't know if anyone saw this, but I thought it might be of interest as a comparison to the Silver Line:

 

http://streetsblog.net/2015/05/08/connecticuts-new-brt-line-smashes-ridership-expectations/

 

Its a ten-mile line that was built largely inside of an unused rail ROW. This was initially touted as being much cheaper. Originally scheduled for 50 million at 1/4 the cost of light rail, the estimated actual cost has ballooned to 570 Million and counting.

 

I am not against BRT - because it makes sense in limited circumstances. But this doesn't appear to be one. Is this also true of the Silver line? Is BRT, because of its flexibility practically unsuitable for arterial flow in an urban area?

[SouthEndCLT811]

I don't know if anyone saw this, but I thought it might be of interest as a comparison to the Silver Line:

 

http://streetsblog.net/2015/05/08/connecticuts-new-brt-line-smashes-ridership-expectations/

 

Its a ten-mile line that was built largely inside of an unused rail ROW. This was initially touted as being much cheaper. Originally scheduled for 50 million at 1/4 the cost of light rail, the estimated actual cost has ballooned to 570 Million and counting.

 

I am not against BRT - because it makes sense in limited circumstances. But this doesn't appear to be one. Is this also true of the Silver line? Is BRT, because of its flexibility practically unsuitable for arterial flow in an urban area?

 

I've written about BRT a few times on here as a cheaper alternative for the Gold Line.  Essentially what phase 1 and 2 of streetcar cost would be the full Gold line via BRT.

 

There are ways to mask it to look as if it is a street car: http://vibrantvictoria.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Wright-Streetcar-BRT.jpg

 

And proofs of concept that it works going through an area very similar to what we would see on the Gold Line: http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/09/clevelands_healthline_gives_mo.html

 

Seeing the Healthline in person I find very little difference over streetcar.  The Healthline has it's own dedicated lane and as it approaches intersections affects the length of a stop light in order to keep some consistency in the schedule.  There's also the benefit as we're seeing in Elizabeth about folks parallel parking over track, BRT doesn't have to worry about that.  But I'm sure BRT has it's faults as well.  I would have just preferred a fully built Gold Line via BRT over what we're seeing with the street car.

 

Another interesting link I found while doing a quick Google search.

 

http://www.urbanreviewstl.com/2013/07/why-not-bus-rapid-transit-brt-instead-of-modern-streetcar/

Edited May 11, 2015 by SouthEndCLT811

[tusculan]

SouthendCLT811,

 

But you miss my point, I think. 

 

I don't think cost can ever be the relevant determinate between these two technologies. IN the Connecticut case, to build a BRT line in the full way, which only makes sense on certain routes, is to spend basically the same amount as a LRT - which can in theory at least, also accommodate more traffic/ split ROW with a commuter line/ and be more energy efficient.

 

If they cost the same amount, and the BRT has to be just as limited in flexibility in order to shore up development, then how does it really work?

[SouthEndCLT811]

Sorry I agree I took your BRT post and held it hostage for my own idea of where BRT would have been best implemented.  I agree the Silver Line to me would not be the best use.  

[birky]

SouthEnd,

 

Does your vision for the BRT take into account long term spending, or simply capital costs associated with getting a line running?

[seth0423]

So, we are saying that BRT would work better on Elizabeth and Central Ave. rather than Independence? Sure, I think it will work about anywhere there is a bus route in Charlotte, but the streetcar is already planned. But, haven't we discussed a Monroe Road routing rather than Independence for the Silver line? What about putting a BRT route on Monroe.

[SouthEndCLT811]

So, we are saying that BRT would work better on Elizabeth and Central Ave. rather than Independence? Sure, I think it will work about anywhere there is a bus route in Charlotte, but the streetcar is already planned. But, haven't we discussed a Monroe Road routing rather than Independence for the Silver line? What about putting a BRT route on Monroe.

 

I was just making a general statement that potentially BRT would have been more cost effective up front on that route and ran very similar to the Healthline in Cleveland.  As to the operating costs someone else asked about, I don't know as much of the details there.  I was just generally stating the start up cost.  I'm sure others on the site know some negatives that come down the road with it.

[tozmervo]

One of the biggest variables is the cost of fuel. Even the best hybrid buses struggle to reach 6 MPG. Generally speaking, modern rail has lower operating costs but there's a myriad of factors (not the least of which is fuel) that effect it.

 

The O had a story last fall comparing numbers. The gold line numbers are not great initially because of it's short length and limited capacity. Long term, the numbers would be excellent because CATS could phase out very expensive bus service in very heavily traveled areas. http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/article9164936.html

[archiham04]

^^

I think that based on what we are seeing further down south blvd... mass transit projects are more transformative when run through industrial areas.  i think that when they are run through existing retail and residential areas, you will see a 15 year increase in investment through higher rents and renovations, but not likely to see tear downs and density increases.  I think that the further out areas West and East will be disappointing as far as streetcar catalyzed reinvestment.  I think that based on the disruption of building a streetcar... and the exorbitant cost, that BRT would be worth looking at for Central and Beaties Ford.

Edited May 12, 2015 by archiham04

[dcharlotte]

I think that is only a function of industrial users going through a large shift towards larger, more modern spaces that operate efficiently and much cheaper than the older stock. Add in a slight bump in taxes due to increased value and it is no wonder there is a shift out of these areas.

 

Residential and retail will have the same jump in price, but with the correct zoning in place for 'by right' developers can assemble properties for newer development that can take advantage the transit that is in place.

 

Retail is a different story since national retailers demand parking for development. The larger developers these days need credit tenants in order to move forward on a development and these credit tenants are the ones requiring the sea of parking (which sits largely empty).

[tusculan]

So, we are saying that BRT would work better on Elizabeth and Central Ave. rather than Independence? Sure, I think it will work about anywhere there is a bus route in Charlotte, but the streetcar is already planned. But, haven't we discussed a Monroe Road routing rather than Independence for the Silver line? What about putting a BRT route on Monroe.

I know that a study was done on this, but wasn't it received poorly? Or should I say, didn't we just go back to the drawing board with the Silver line now with 3 options instead of 4 - Central, Independence Blvd, Monroe Rd, CSX ROW.

[kermit]

While BRT can be appealingly cheap its worth remembering its very limited capacity. The buses can't be coupled together and grade crossings limit the adding additional frequencies.  The Orange Line in Los Angeles was built as BRT but demand soon swamped it, they are now having to pay $$$ to convert it to LRT.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Line_%28Los_Angeles_Metro%29

[tusculan]

While BRT can be appealingly cheap its worth remembering its very limited capacity. The buses can't be coupled together and grade crossings limit the adding additional frequencies.  The Orange Line in Los Angeles was built as BRT but demand soon swamped it, they are now having to pay $$$ to convert it to LRT.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Line_%28Los_Angeles_Metro%29

This is my big concern with BRT. I think it can be used, but it seems to fulfill a niche need - that between regular bus service around 1000 people per day and Light Rail 10000 ppd. In theory, BRT is a fine idea; in practice, when we don't build transit infrastructure until its utterly obvious, the time has already passed when it would be truly feasible.

 

Thus, I think in the US, BRT can only be a 2nd generation service that complements an already existing one.

[Third Strike]

I think the best corridor for BRT is Wilkinson Boulevard. Maybe use one lane on each side exclusively for buses/Sprinter (decreasing the general lanes on 74 from six to four). Not sure if that counts as "BRT", but it would be extremely cheap to implement, and could lay the foundation for future mass transit on this corridor.  

[tozmervo]

The Sprinter is already "BRT-Lite," especially as that corridor is not as congested as Central, Monroe, Tryon, etc. Apart from a horrible shelter at the terminal itself, it's a nice transit line in that direction.

[dcharlotte]

Does the Sprinter have real-time information on the stops? 

[tozmervo]

The terminal stop and ashley rd stop both have "scheduled time" displays, as marginally useful as that is. I would expect them to turn into real-time info once CATS launches a system-wide bus tracker app.

[archiham04]

Oh, now you're getting me started on the "sprinter"....  To me, the sprinter could be wildly successful with one simple change:  Make the origin somewhere people are!?!?!  Like were they live, or at least park.  

1. Start at a park and ride, "sprint" up to CTC and then "sprint" on into the airport.  Who really wants to lug a bag into the CTC and wait 20 minutes for a transfer?
2. "Sprint" down one of our most populated corridors, stop at CTC and then "sprint" onto the airport.

our hub and spoke system is such a farce! Our routes are dictated-not by efficiency-but by federal funding that subsidizes proximity to low income housing.  They don't care how long it take poor people to get to work...  As long as they provide a tentacle to keep their numbers up..

 

Sorry.  none of this is based on actual research...  just relaying rants I've heard from some wonky bureaucrats.

[tozmervo]

CATS also provides two direct bus lines to the airport from Northlake Mall & Archdale Station. http://charmeck.org/city/charlotte/cats/Bus/Pages/airport-connector.aspx

[15895]

Hopefully with all the turmoil and chaos over I77, this brings credo to the red line.

Almost makes me want to join the anti-toll people just to stir the pot.

"You know what, Mooresville, Davidson, Cornelius & Huntersville? The toll is bad business but it's too far in the process. Here's a billion dollars for the red line" Heh, in my dreams...

Can you guys believe the toll lane deal will prohibit an additional lane within 50 years?! Holy cow! Surely thats only for lane expansions that aren't tolled...

Charlotte chamber endorsed the toll