CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[SgtCampsalot]

So, in regards to a potential alignment for the Silver Line: The original thought in CATS and Matthews was that the line would break from Independence, go through the rock quarry, and then run beside Independence Point Parkway with TOD until crossing to the CPCC Levine campus. I've spoken with someone with Matthews who confirmed "through the quarry" as part of that alignment, and that it is still a viable option for the Town.

The old alignment proposal:

But... that begs the question, how do quarries close? Do they ever get bought out? Do they have a shelf-life of usefulness? Are they safe to convert into parks/lakes? And if they refused to close, would that alignment be viable, even though any TOD would have to redevelop those businesses fronting Independence?

This is crucial to me, because that quarry is a huge, huge parcel of land:

I wonder because I saw this article today about quarries out west converted to parks/lakes.

Edited August 18, 2015 by SgtCampsalot

[tozmervo]

Yes, at least one quarry in the area has been converted to a wedding venue. http://www.carriganfarms.com/

[orulz]

Quarries can and do close. That said, the companies who operate them are usually very reluctant to stop operating them until their term (lease, permit, whatever) expires.

When they do close, they are sometimes used as reserviors. They are very good for that because they are deep, and can hold a lot of volume relative to their surface area which minimizes loss through evaporation, and they are usually not very porous which also minimizes loss through seepage. Teer Quarry in Durham is used for this, and a plan is in motion to use Bellwood Quarry in Atlanta for this starting in a few years.

Another use is for flood control. In Chicago there is a plan called TARP (Tunnel And Reservoir Plan) that basically uses some quarries around the area as stormwater reservoirs to prevent low-lying areas from flooding and prevent the Chicago River from backing up into Lake Michigan. In Raleigh, the Crabtree Quarry (which the owner has agreed to abandon by 2054 - yes you read that right) will likely be used for flood control once it closes, to capture excess water from Crabtree Creek that would otherwise flood low-lying areas like Crabtree Valley mall and Hodges Street in the event of an extreme rainfall situation.

 

[archiham04]

So we are all in agreement that Light Rail stops along Independence wouldn't work.. but what if the Independence corridor was used as a collector, and Transit Oriented spurs were built off of the collector.  For instance Eastway could have six TOD stops beginning near Independence and running North... when the light rail  got to Indy it would just express straight downtown?  You could iterate this all the way out and in either direction...

Edited August 18, 2015 by archiham04

[kermit]

^ Yes, Yes and Yes (the express running from Matthews is inspired). I would rarely use those lines but would happily pay wads of additional transit tax for them.

More pragmatically there are some issues beyond cost that would need to be worked out:

1) There would need to be some type of through running downtown, it will be logistically impossible to turn all those trains at Gateway. One line to the Airport, one to Beaties Ford (the streetcar), one to Sevierville (Blue Blaze / P&N) and three other lines to.....?

2) This model would strain the capacity of dedicated 2 track ROW downtown. 15 minute frequency on the branches would translate to roughly 1 train per minute (in either direction) on the downtown sections. This frequency would make grade crossings impossible and prevent increases in peak hour frequency. Dallas is dealing with this problem now.  Having the branches split off the trunk line and become circulator streetcar service downtown might work as would a very expensive (and rare) 4 track tunnel.

3) The branching model would also work (to a smaller degree) on the Blue Line / BLE (URP, Plaza-Central from NoDa, Graham st, Park rd SC / Southpark and Ballantyne) so handling all that fantasy downtown overlapping throughput would really be a bear. (the Tryon and Trade intersection would have nearly double the number of trains as the Chicago Loop)

tldr: Neato!

[orulz]

That sort of network makes very little sense to build as light rail, since the spurs would have lower ridership and lower frequency, but comparable cost of construction per mile. Sure, it works on MUNI in San Francisco and the Green Line in Boston, but those corridors were mostly built 100 years ago when buildint stuff was cheap, and exist in old in cities that are currently several orders of magnitude denser than Charlotte.

HOWEVER, this makes loads of sense as bus rapid transit. The spine can be a fast, nonstop BRT corridor, but branches can be added and amenities adjusted according to demand. For a lower ridership branch just put bus shelters and run it as a local bus; for higher ridership branches do arrival clocks, signal priority, queue jumpers, even dedicated right-of-way if warranted. If branching like that is what is needed in SE Charlotte, then BRT is the only (realistic) way to do it.

[DMann]

How many people want to transfer on a 10 mile ride into town?

[archiham04]

^ a branch system would eliminate the transfer.

[ChessieCat]

LRT with stops in the middle of Independence make sense only if caps over the freeway are built where the stations are located.  Private-public partnerships could follow this logic:  

• Developers pay for right to develop the land on top of every cap.  They can build mixed-use developments with towers, shopping, greenways, etc.  Commuters living in those towers will have direct elevator connections to their stations and a straight shot to uptown on LRT.
• The pedestrian-friendly caps will connect the opposite sides of Independence which are horribly disjointed at present thanks to the freeway.
• The money that developers pay upfront for the right to develop the caps will help defray the $1.7 Billion cost of develping the LRT Silver Line.  The 0.5 cent transit tax won't cover the full cost of the Silver Line anyway.
• Businesses located nearby the caps will get enhanced foot traffic.  Create a special property tax district along Independence that captures the value of increased property values to help defray the cost of the line.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_structures_built_on_top_of_freeways

http://streets.mn/2014/02/22/could-interstate-lids-unify-university-neighborhoods/

Edited August 18, 2015 by ChessieCat

[southslider]

Middle of Indy has already been nixed.  Side of Indy may still work part of the way, like Charlottetowne Ave to Conference Dr.

[ChessieCat]

If LRT is built on one side of Independence, then the other side is gonna get the short end of the stick and the problem of disjointed neighborhoods bisected by the freeway will still be a problem.  Caps can help rectify that.

Edited August 19, 2015 by ChessieCat

[Spartan]

Quarries can and do close. That said, the companies who operate them are usually very reluctant to stop operating them until their term (lease, permit, whatever) expires.

When they do close, they are sometimes used as reserviors. They are very good for that because they are deep, and can hold a lot of volume relative to their surface area which minimizes loss through evaporation, and they are usually not very porous which also minimizes loss through seepage. Teer Quarry in Durham is used for this, and a plan is in motion to use Bellwood Quarry in Atlanta for this starting in a few years.

Another use is for flood control. In Chicago there is a plan called TARP (Tunnel And Reservoir Plan) that basically uses some quarries around the area as stormwater reservoirs to prevent low-lying areas from flooding and prevent the Chicago River from backing up into Lake Michigan. In Raleigh, the Crabtree Quarry (which the owner has agreed to abandon by 2054 - yes you read that right) will likely be used for flood control once it closes, to capture excess water from Crabtree Creek that would otherwise flood low-lying areas like Crabtree Valley mall and Hodges Street in the event of an extreme rainfall situation.

 

Quarries are permitted by DENR and they have to renew their permits periodically. I forget the time frame but it's something like 10-15 years. Every quarry has to have a plan for when they close. The question is how much material is left to be excavated. They have a fairly large parcel between the existing pit and the railroad to the west. My guess is that they have 50+ years worth of extracting to do.

[15895]

I think something huge for our transit system would be.... Sidewalks and pedestrian crossings.

 

Sometimes the bus seems like a nice option until you realize "oh crap... There is no crossing this road without looking like a moron running for dear life"

 

Sometimes the bus seems like a good option then you find yourself walking In a little trampled path of grass, no sidewalk.

 

[SgtCampsalot]

This is admittedly a very silly question, but:

Going on the assumption that the Silver Line is the next significant Transit project to be completed (outside Phase 2 of the streetcar), when do you think it would become funded? (Like, 2012 for the BLE).

Like, any chance into the 2030s?

[southslider]

BLE will end up opening 10 years after the original Blue Line opened. If Silver Line opened another 10 years later, that would be 2027.

The New Starts process takes about 7 years from Alternatives Analysis process (which the current Silver Line study is not) to revenue service. However, unless political will changes, both locally and in Raleigh, to address funding sources, then 2027 is out of reach.

Edited August 21, 2015 by southslider

[Third Strike]

I'd like to believe the 2020s will see the construction and completion of the Gateway Station and the third phase of the Gold Line. The Silver Line could be completed in the 2030s, along with the completion of the Gold Line, and maybe high speed rail between here and Raleigh. In between all of this, maybe a commuter line to Concord and Salisbury. The west line would start planning in the 2030s, with a completion of somewhere in the 2040s. Everything else past the 2040s could be extensions and new lines not currently proposed (extension to Ballantyne and Concord Mills, commuter lines to Gastonia and Rock Hill, a revived Red Line, etc.).

If we end up with a super transit friendly NCGA in 2020, then a lot of this stuff could happen sooner. Hopefully.

[kermit]

Everything else past the 2040s could be extensions and new lines not currently proposed (extension to Ballantyne and Concord Mills, commuter lines to Gastonia and Rock Hill, a revived Red Line, etc.).

I agree with your larger point (we need a 2040 transit plan soon!) But at a smaller scale I can only hope that the built environment in and around Concord Mills and Ballantyne has 25 more years of life left in it. I honestly can't imagine a scenario where all the regional malls built in the mid 1990s don't get "Eastlanded" in the next 15 years.

Having said that I'll admit that I am in a pessimistic mood today thanks to a mild hangover.

Edited August 22, 2015 by kermit

[Third Strike]

I think Concord Mills has staying power in the region. It is more of a destination/entertainment hub than the other malls in the area. Last time I checked, it was one of the top visited places in the state. That, along with the airport and speedway, indicates that this area will become another major hub and tourist location for the metro. It doesn't make sense to extent the Blue Line to that area now, but I'm sure in twenty years there will be density to support it.

The other two malls might be toast in a couple of decades, if not sooner. Seems like Carolina Place will face the same problems as Eastland soon, as demographic groups begin to change, and income levels around the mall begin to drop. I also think the new developments in south Charlotte and Rock Hill are having an effect on the mall, as residents in those areas can just shop at retail nearby, rather than travel to Pineville. Plus I wonder about the future of Sears and JCPenney's, and what would happen to the mall if they ever close or bankrupt. Northlake I'm not sure about, especially since it is right at the junction of I-485 and I-77.

I can see Ballantyne being to Charlotte, as Sandy Springs is to Atlanta. I think that's it for the widening of I-485 and I-77 (after 2025) in that area, and mass transit will have to become the solution to the added congestion over the next few years. Plus, extending the Blue Line there would be "cheaper" than most other hypothetical lines, since they could run it next to I-485, and right of way acquisition would be low. 

[RiverwoodCLT]

 Independence is a bad choice.  The silver should go 7th Street and Monroe Road.  Most of Monroe has people living on both side the street.   There is no one living beside Independence from uptown to I485.  Drive down Monroe Road and look at all the  neighbrohoods from uptown to Matthews. Sure there is some retail and offices but not like  Independence.

[southslider]

There are a lot of apartments near Independence between Uptown and Briar Creek, and another concentration around Idlewild Rd.  7th Street doesn't have the room for exclusive tracks.

[kermit]

 Last time I checked, it was one of the top visited places in the state.

It is, but that is only because the visitor data are collected by determining how many people cross a county line to visit the place. Its location on the county line makes the visitor data for Concord Mills a bit misleading -- its just another regional mall.

Edited August 23, 2015 by kermit

[SgtCampsalot]

I'm getting the feeling once the hybrid-bus maker's bankruptcy goes through, Anthony Foxx will be investigated for bribes. He will then resign, and Charlotte may have an uphill battle in getting local, state, or federal funds for future transit.

Please give me a scenario where I am wrong. PLEASE...

[15895]

I'm getting the feeling once the hybrid-bus maker's bankruptcy goes through, Anthony Foxx will be investigated for bribes. He will then resign, and Charlotte may have an uphill battle in getting local, state, or federal funds for future transit.

Please give me a scenario where I am wrong. PLEASE...

how did you jump to that conclusion?

[SgtCampsalot]

Well full-disclosure, I've been having intense conversations with "colleagues" who tend to be very skeptical of transit. Conspiracy theory? Maybe. But I don't know what to think. The notion gave me all the scared feels.

[kermit]

I would be surprised if Foxx's employment relationship with Design Line was any different than McCrory's with Duke Power.

Regardless of what Foxx may or may not have done, his position has brought no 'gifts' to NC nor does the state have anything significant pending funding. The Gold Line phase two has already been decided, DOLRT is 18 months away from FFGA submission, everything else is just highway BS.