CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[kermit]

^ and there was a budget line for new fare machines (I belive on buses) in the proposed state highway budget.

[tozmervo]

Indeed. I do have some sympathy on the issue given how dramatically and quickly payment tech has changed since the existing fare boxes were installed in 1998, but dang I wish we could get smart cards onto the buses. 

[seth0423]

Ok, I have realized something tonight. 

 

We need branches within CATS. The MTC, first of all, not only needs to control the future of design for the transit, but also the funding for those projects. Right now, it seems like the rest of CATS is ignoring the plans. We need a board that controls the transit within Charlotte limits (CATS). We also need one to control transit from regions (like York, and Iredell counties) into the city. 

 

I went to Chicago about a year ago, and noticed something. Their transit system seems to have everything in touch. I know Chicago is 3x our size, but the structure seems to agree on everything. Metra (Commuter Rail), and PACE (the regional bus) cover everything they need to. The 'L' and the CTA bus system, both of which I rode on many times, always took me exactly where I needed to go.

 

My point is, the MTC can't keep making plans that get us all worked up, only to have CATS try to negotiate with all the surrounding counties and come up unsucessful. We need a true regional transportation authority to make all of this to work out.

[cltbwimob]

Ok, I have realized something tonight. 

 

We need branches within CATS. The MTC, first of all, not only needs to control the future of design for the transit, but also the funding for those projects. Right now, it seems like the rest of CATS is ignoring the plans. We need a board that controls the transit within Charlotte limits (CATS). We also need one to control transit from regions (like York, and Iredell counties) into the city. 

 

I went to Chicago about a year ago, and noticed something. Their transit system seems to have everything in touch. I know Chicago is 3x our size, but the structure seems to agree on everything. Metra (Commuter Rail), and PACE (the regional bus) cover everything they need to. The 'L' and the CTA bus system, both of which I rode on many times, always took me exactly where I needed to go.

 

My point is, the MTC can't keep making plans that get us all worked up, only to have CATS try to negotiate with all the surrounding counties and come up unsucessful. We need a true regional transportation authority to make all of this to work out.

I think this is a good idea, at least to have a Regional Rail Authority [or Regional Rail Whatever since calling anything a  Regional "Authority" may induce angst], if we are to someday have a regional commuter rail system.  Coincidentally, if I read the Senate's addendum to HB117 correctly, it actually allows for local counties to band together and create a tax district for transit systems.

[kermit]

In an amazing transformation it appears that Keith Parker has made the Georgia legislature actually think about providing MARTA with money. There is a possibility that MARTA will be given access to a 1/2 cent sales tax that was previously earmarked for road construction. The hope is the additional money will provide MARTA with an additional $8 billion for the construction of new lines.

If MARTA can do it (with the former CATS CEO) then there is really no reason we can't do it.

http://politics.blog.ajc.com/2015/07/11/marta-makes-an-8-billion-pitch-to-change-the-face-of-metro-atlanta/

[dcharlotte]

They won't be able to do it. 

[Spartan]

There's no way that will happen any time soon given the current General Assembly's legislative rampage against cities in this state.

[tozmervo]

You’re Invited to the Silver Line/ Southeast Corridor Transit Study Workshops

Changing conditions require a fresh look at rail transit opportunities and bus routes in the Southeast Corridor between Uptown Charlotte and Matthews.

Initial public workshops are being held to seek feedback on transit goals, constraints, and opportunities in the corridor.

Open House / Interactive Workshop from 6:00 p.m. until 7:30 p.m.

A brief presentation will be given at 6:15 p.m.


Tuesday, August 11
6:00 p.m. - 7:30 p.m. 
Matthews Town Hall
232 Matthews Station St, Matthews, NC 28105

Thursday, August 13 
11:30 a.m. - 1:30 p.m.
Charlotte Mecklenburg Public Library 
310 N. Tryon St, Charlotte, NC 28202

**Please note that the August 13 daytime meeting will have an open house between 11:30 a.m. and 1:30 p.m.**

Thursday, August 13 
6:00 p.m. - 7:30 p.m.
Midwood International & Cultural Center 
1817 Central Ave, Charlotte NC 28205


The information/activities at each workshop will be the same.

[Third Strike]

You’re Invited to the Silver Line/ Southeast Corridor Transit Study Workshops

Changing conditions require a fresh look at rail transit opportunities and bus routes in the Southeast Corridor between Uptown Charlotte and Matthews.

Initial public workshops are being held to seek feedback on transit goals, constraints, and opportunities in the corridor.

Open House / Interactive Workshop from 6:00 p.m. until 7:30 p.m.

A brief presentation will be given at 6:15 p.m.


Tuesday, August 11
6:00 p.m. - 7:30 p.m. 
Matthews Town Hall
232 Matthews Station St, Matthews, NC 28105

Thursday, August 13 
11:30 a.m. - 1:30 p.m.
Charlotte Mecklenburg Public Library 
310 N. Tryon St, Charlotte, NC 28202

**Please note that the August 13 daytime meeting will have an open house between 11:30 a.m. and 1:30 p.m.**

Thursday, August 13 
6:00 p.m. - 7:30 p.m.
Midwood International & Cultural Center 
1817 Central Ave, Charlotte NC 28205


The information/activities at each workshop will be the same.

I can't believe I've been waiting for any new info on the Silver Line since 2006. Hopefully some of the ideas that have been brought up on UP are shared here.

[orulz]

To me DMU along the CSX seems like the right mode for this line. The FRA is reported to be considering regulations that would allow lighter weight passenger trains to run on freight tracks.

There are a number of ways that this could be implemented. DMUs don't accelerate quite as quickly as electric LRVs so wider stop spacing is better, but stops spaced out by 1 mile would actually match the built environment perfectly. Stops could be:

(1) Gateway
(2) North Tryon/Alpha Mill (Blue Line transfer)
(3) Central (Streetcar transfer)
(4) Monroe & Dunn / Coliseum
(5) Wendover

.... and then some more widely spaced stops heading out towards Matthews and possibly Monroe if Union County were to participate.

Getting to Gateway without ADM issues would certainly require the CSX/NS grade separation to be built, and possibly a new CSX-NS connection, maybe in the block bounded by 12th, Graham, Liddell, and Church.

Another alternative could be a dual-mode tram train that switches from the CSX to the Blue Line route, and from diesel to electric power, at Alpha Mill. This would of course depend on updated FRA regulations.

A final option for DMUs might be to just stop them at Alpha Mill for now and build a new transfer station to access the Blue Line.

Anyway none of these are a slam dunk but I think that DMU does merit consideration.

[ChessieCat]

To me DMU along the CSX seems like the right mode for this line. The FRA is reported to be considering regulations that would allow lighter weight passenger trains to run on freight tracks.

There are a number of ways that this could be implemented. DMUs don't accelerate quite as quickly as electric LRVs so wider stop spacing is better, but stops spaced out by 1 mile would actually match the built environment perfectly. Stops could be:

(1) Gateway
(2) North Tryon/Alpha Mill (Blue Line transfer)
(3) Central (Streetcar transfer)
(4) Monroe & Dunn / Coliseum
(5) Wendover

.... and then some more widely spaced stops heading out towards Matthews and possibly Monroe if Union County were to participate.

Getting to Gateway without ADM issues would certainly require the CSX/NS grade separation to be built, and possibly a new CSX-NS connection, maybe in the block bounded by 12th, Graham, Liddell, and Church.

Another alternative could be a dual-mode tram train that switches from the CSX to the Blue Line route, and from diesel to electric power, at Alpha Mill. This would of course depend on updated FRA regulations.

A final option for DMUs might be to just stop them at Alpha Mill for now and build a new transfer station to access the Blue Line.

Anyway none of these are a slam dunk but I think that DMU does merit consideration.

As mentioned in this forum many times before, since the grade separation at Graham Interlocking (ADM) isn't happening anytime soon, building Gateway station where the CSX meets the Blue Line would be the most cost-effective location (see Dub1's renderings) since all major rail lines converge at that point.  A connection from the NS to CSX to NCRR already exists, so the Amtrak Crescent could be routed to the new Gateway along with the Red Line, Piedmont, Carolinian, and possible future routes to the Airport, Salisbury, and Mint Hill (ACWR).

 

Edited August 4, 2015 by ChessieCat

[mjcatl2]

In an amazing transformation it appears that Keith Parker has made the Georgia legislature actually think about providing MARTA with money.

That's not an amazing transformation. "Yeah, um sure I'll think about it" is not "Sure, we'll fund MARTA with % of the tax"

 

[tozmervo]

A few snaps from the Silver Line public meeting today at the main library. The focus is basically what a lot of us thought: no mode is selected, no route is selected. They're soliciting input on destinations, desired speed and service, frequency, etc. 

[kermit]

 They're soliciting input on destinations, desired speed and service, frequency, etc. 

i do understand the importance of public participation in planning but I gotta ask: will anyone ever say "bus, slow and infrequent"? Seems like these meetings are completely pointless in the absence of routing and cost parameters in order to discuss tradeoffs. I guess creating an illusion of public participation is the real goal here.

[My grouchyness aside, thanks very much for going to the meeting and reporting here Toz. Its much appreciated!]

Edited August 13, 2015 by kermit

[tozmervo]

I take your meaning. There were actually two boards (not shown) that had giant arrows on a "scale" that people could put stickers on their preference. For example, one end might have said "I prefer more frequent bus service, even if it means walking further." The other end might have said "I prefer shorter walks, even if it means less frequent service."

There were about 10 arrows with different questions along the same lines of "is this trade off worth this?"

[dcharlotte]

The massive investment in transit will mean nothing if they don't have frequent service - that's the case for all transit in America. Waiting 20 minutes for a train or bus pushes choice riders away quickly.

[tozmervo]

Your sticker would be on the "strongly agree" end of the scale, then

[ChessieCat]

^Let's hope that CATS Silver Line doesn't end up like Boston's Silver Line BRT which only has its own ROW for a limited section of its route.  I've ridden Boston's twice and it's pathetic.  It takes 20 minutes to wait for a bus from South Station and the line is always crammed with people wanting to get to the airport.  Once on board, it's an uncomfortable ride cause of the jarring of a bus that's stopping and starting.  LRT doesn't have this problem.  The most pathetic thing is once the bus leaves its ROW, it has to make an unecessary stop to transition from electric to diesel mode before Logan Airport, where it enters regular traffic and the resulting free-for-all of having to stop at every terminal while navigating around taxis, cars, etc. 

As a result the Institute for Transportation and Development Policy (ITDP) doesn't consider it to be true BRT because of this limited ROW.

BRT Creep is an actual term, let's hope CATS Silver Line doesn't end up like Boston's Silver Line:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_rapid_transit_creep

There is scorecard set by the ITDP for it to consider something true BRT.  The public here in Charlotte should hold CATS to this standard if they want to call the Silver Line "BRT":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRT_Standard

Edited August 13, 2015 by ChessieCat

[ajfunder]

It seems CATS is leaning more towards a rail option for the corridor as of right now, am I correct in this assumption? Personally I think rail will have a wider appeal and be a better long term investment.

[tozmervo]

Now that you mention it, there was very little mention of BRT in that room, to the extent that I didn't even think about it.

My only contribution was a big sticker on the map that said "transit stations in freeway medians are HORRIBLE"

[SgtCampsalot]

I attended the last meeting tonight, and was thankfully directed to these boards (I was previously looking at City-Data for useful urban info... big mistake).

They are certainly leaning toward a rail option. Also because I'm pretty sure without dedicated lanes on Independence, it would be far more difficult to implement BRT in this corridor. They are truly looking for a "fresh look" and, understandably, need to acquire whatever support they can acquire for whatever mode, as a popular-mandate mechanism for presenting rail alignments to whomever (like the railroad companies).

They are also using this as an opportunity to get feedback on the various projects in the Independence Blvd Area Plan, like what streets are best to connect parallel to the Blvd, and what bike facilities/sidewalks are most important along the parallel areas.

It really makes me mourn what Independence could've been if the city had gotten around the state and managed to make it a true super-boulevard. Which especially brakes my heart, because I read several notes by people saying things like "Please put rail on Independence anyway to help blight conditions" etc

Edited August 14, 2015 by SgtCampsalot

[ChessieCat]

 

It seems CATS is leaning more towards a rail option for the corridor as of right now, am I correct in this assumption? Personally I think rail will have a wider appeal and be a better long term investment.

 

Now that you mention it, there was very little mention of BRT in that room, to the extent that I didn't even think about it.

My only contribution was a big sticker on the map that said "transit stations in freeway medians are HORRIBLE"

Glad to hear that LRT is the preferred option (as of now) for the Silver Line. After the BLE is complete, CATS has to plan for its next LRT corridor in the 2020's.  My thoughts:

1) As much as the northern suburbs want the Red Line, it's not going to happen as long as the grade separation at Graham Interlocking (ADM) remains DOA.  The Red Line would not be along a NCDOT-owned corridor since Norfolk Southern owns the O-line. Projected ridership doesn't justify the cost of double-tracking the corridor unfortunately.

2) The abandoned P&N is a non-starter cause it doesn't go to the airport.  A train to Pinoca Yard is a train to nowhere.  

3) That leaves A) an Airport line along Wilkinson or B) LRT along Independence.  Ridership definitely supports the latter.  Let's hope it gets done, but the $1.7 Billion price tag is steep.

Edited August 14, 2015 by ChessieCat

[birky]

OK OK, but how do we pay for it?

[ChessieCat]

OK OK, but how do we pay for it?

Once the BLE is complete, CATS has to plan for its next big capital project and how best to deploy the 0.5 cent transit tax.  But as I mentioned, $1.7 Billion is not cheap and the transit tax +  Federal/State grants will likely not cover the total cost.  Since a lot of development will occur along Independence if Silver Line LRT is built, they are going to have to create a special tax district to help pay for it from the resulting rise in property values.  

Edited August 18, 2015 by ChessieCat

[JFerreira91]

I dont know how expensive could be an increase of 0.5 in tax, but to me does not sound bad if that means that I will be helping to develop my city. I come from a Petroleum country and there every development about thansit just comes from the main petroleum company there, not from my taxes.