CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[J-Rob]

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/19/how-an-autonomous-train-bus-hybrid-could-transform-city-transit.html

I thought this was an interesting read. Funding for the light rail may never happen as currently proposed, but a Chinese company is proposing a solution that is about 1/5th the cost if you using existing roadways.  It is a hybrid bus/train.  It follows a dedicated path like a light rail, and feel like you are riding light rail, but the vehicle has rubber wheels.  I am not sure what I think about this. It seems like a bus, lol, but if it operated more like a light rail with frequent stops on a dedicated path, maybe it would seem more like a train.

The video in the article is interesting anyways. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by J-Rob

[kermit]

I am not sure that two FOIA requests for email  proves a lack of action from the city, but this is certainly reflective of the lack of initiative and effort we have seen from the city on the transit plan. I wish the city would step up their efforts to move the plan forward.

https://charlotte.axios.com/321561/charlotte-transit-plan-general-assembly-emails/

 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by kermit

[Mid South NC]

Charlottetowne Ave. bridge 

[southslider]

^^Not surprised the City and State lack communication.   Easier to spread divisive rhetoric about each other than spend even a minute trying to understand other's perspectives.  And just forget about trying to find common ground.

[RANYC]

10 hours ago, kermit said:

I am not sure that two FOIA requests for email  proves a lack of action from the city, but this is certainly reflective of the lack of initiative and effort we have seen from the city on the transit plan. I wish the city would step up their efforts to move the plan forward.

https://charlotte.axios.com/321561/charlotte-transit-plan-general-assembly-emails/

 

 

Embarrassing.  The Mayor ran Transit commercials in Raleigh.  That's apparently as close as Raleigh legislators want her to be when communicating with them.  Hopefully those same legislators were watching TV, and specifically the right stations at the right time she made her case via TV ad for a Charlotte transit strategy.  At present, I think the city lacks a leadership apparatus to actually get a long-range, complex, multi-billion dollar transit strategy fully designed and executed.

[Hushpuppy321]

On 2/20/2023 at 8:06 AM, J-Rob said:

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/19/how-an-autonomous-train-bus-hybrid-could-transform-city-transit.html

I thought this was an interesting read. Funding for the light rail may never happen as currently proposed, but a Chinese company is proposing a solution that is about 1/5th the cost if you using existing roadways.  It is a hybrid bus/train.  It follows a dedicated path like a light rail, and feel like you are riding light rail, but the vehicle has rubber wheels.  I am not sure what I think about this. It seems like a bus, lol, but if it operated more like a light rail with frequent stops on a dedicated path, maybe it would seem more like a train.

The video in the article is interesting anyways. 

Seems like an interesting way to I’ve people.  Very similar to BRT in some ways.

[RANYC]

On 2/20/2023 at 8:06 AM, J-Rob said:

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/19/how-an-autonomous-train-bus-hybrid-could-transform-city-transit.html

I thought this was an interesting read. Funding for the light rail may never happen as currently proposed, but a Chinese company is proposing a solution that is about 1/5th the cost.  It is a hybrid bus/train.  It follows a dedicated path like a light rail, and feel like you are riding light rail, but the vehicle has rubber wheels.  I am not sure what I think about this. It seems like a bus, lol, but if it operated more like a light rail with frequent stops on a dedicated path, maybe it would seem more like a train.

Interesting anyways. 

Another morning of revolting and discourteous behavior when attempting the gold line.  Several of us had to wait away from a Gold Line platform as a guy and his female companion smoked joints, and the rest of us took care not to have ourselves and our work clothes aromatized.  

Remind me again why we want more shared spaces for mobility?  All this growth and beckoning for growth is ultimately supposed to turn Charlotte into a better version of what it used to be, correct?  Sorry, just need a refresher on this especially challenging morning during an especially challenging week of seeing some of the worst of Charlotte on full display.

Edited February 23, 2023 by RANYC

[JRCLT]

Another morning of revolting and discourteous behavior when attempting the gold line.  Several of us had to wait away from a Gold Line platform as a guy and his female companion smoked joints, and the rest of us took care not to have ourselves and our work clothes aromatized.  
Remind me again why we want more shared spaces for mobility?  All this growth and beckoning for growth is ultimately supposed to turn Charlotte into a better version of what it used to be, correct?  Sorry, just need a refresher on this especially challenging morning during an especially challenging week of seeing some of the worst of Charlotte on full display.

Some People will smoke around you wether you’re in Charlotte or not. It’s just the lack of self-awareness and surroundings. Simply people doing a crap thing that really shouldn’t be done and without regard to you all. Sorry that you experienced the worst of not necessarily just Charlotte, but the worst of humanity and it’s carelessness and lack respect toward anything and everything in their surroundings. : ) Just two people being rude, so don’t get hung up on that. I hope that tomorrow treats you much better. Pick yourself up and you need not do more than move on.

[kermit]

^ I feel you (figuratively not literally)

I have returned to a regular nighttime (around 8pm) commute on the blue line over the past few months. Pre Covid I did this commute regularly since 2008 and never had a problem or even discomfort.  Unfortunately  this year 9th and 7th st stations have been uncomfortable places to be after dark. 9th st has a bunch of non-riders congregating (drinking) in the shadows around 9th st, and the station just feels desolate (9th street being closed makes this even feeling worse). At 7th st I consistently see people exhibiting dramatic anti-social behavior (screaming at other people, or just the clouds) and the station is awfully dark and generally devoid of passengers. The trains themselves are also in rough shape this time of night (I boarded a well-vomited car last night). (First Ward park has also felt a good bit more creepy this year after dark)

I don’t consider any of these issues to be major, they are a fact of life in all US transit systems,  and I have never really felt unsafe, but quality of life on the Blue Line is definitely worse than before. To the point where I  would discourage my wife from riding by herself after dark. More staff presence would certainly help, and CATS seems to struggle with this, Blue line fare enforcement seems to be incredibly inconsistent. I either get checked twice on a single ride or don’t see any enforcement for months. I never thought their teams of 4-5 inspectors was a very efficient use of those resources -- every other US transit system I have seen used single fare inspectors rather than teams.

Edit: an addendum from today’s commute. Got my fare checked on both rides today (by a team of 4 each time). Couple sitting across from me had no ticket, but security suggested they download the app and buy it there. While security waited, the dude started to vape up a storm, something that was not commented on, or at all discouraged by security. Dude never bought his ticket in the app either. 
Do better CATS (and contractors)

Edited February 23, 2023 by kermit

[ertley]

2 hours ago, RANYC said:

Another morning of revolting and discourteous behavior when attempting the gold line.  Several of us had to wait away from a Gold Line platform as a guy and his female companion smoked joints, and the rest of us took care not to have ourselves and our work clothes aromatized.  

Remind me again why we want more shared spaces for mobility?  All this growth and beckoning for growth is ultimately supposed to turn Charlotte into a better version of what it used to be, correct?  Sorry, just need a refresher on this especially challenging morning during an especially challenging week of seeing some of the worst of Charlotte on full display.

I know this is slightly off topic... but, living in DC, I've of course been surrounded by pot smoking in public for years now, and while I'm generally inured to it, I have had similar situations where people wholly abuse this right by smoking in crowded public spaces, in front of children, especially...

What aggravates me just as much as the discourtesy, solipsism and entitlement of those flouting what should be simple, decent behavior is the predictable, continual cluelessness of policy-makers who don't have enough foresight to realize such issues are inevitably going to occur and make realistic, workable policy for equitable enforcement.

My big argument for legalizing pot is to explicitly pair it with alcohol consumption, which already has simple, universally understood rules for its controlled consumption. I realize that actually adding pot to alcohol statutes is impracticable, but you can instead write the statues for pot to more or less mirror alcohol as much as possible, for the end purpose of making it clear and simple that the same laws will apply to both. The point would be to have clear, unmistakable, easy to convey messaging to the public that existing laws for alcohol effectively cover pot: If you can't drink alcohol somewhere, such as on a public transit platform, then you can't smoke pot there either--and especially motorized vehicles. (I cannot count the number of times I pass not merely parked but driven cars with marijuana fumes wafting from them.)  

Caveat: These new social districts for open consumption of alcohol complicate this, which is why I'm actually ambivalent about them, because it undoes this fantasy synergism! (And believe, me, alcohol is my drug of choice.)

Regardless, IMO this would solve innumerable problems with compliance and enforcement. But policy-makers just continually seem to be unable to take into account people's limited abilities to assimilate new information, especially if it's not helpful or interesting to them. It's a longstanding frustration for me how policy-makers don't consider equally both sides of policy-making: They just (lazily IMO) work through legal and procedural considerations and don't follow through to actual implementation and enforcement of regulations. 

My off topic six cents' worth ramble...

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, ertley said:

I know this is slightly off topic... but, living in DC, I've of course been surrounded by pot smoking in public for years now, and while I'm generally inured to it, I have had similar situations where people wholly abuse this right by smoking in crowded public spaces, in front of children, especially...

What aggravates me just as much as the discourtesy, solipsism and entitlement of those flouting what should be simple, decent behavior is the predictable, continual cluelessness of policy-makers who don't have enough foresight to realize such issues are inevitably going to occur and make realistic, workable policy for equitable enforcement.

My big argument for legalizing pot is to explicitly pair it with alcohol consumption, which already has simple, universally understood rules for its controlled consumption. I realize that actually adding pot to alcohol statutes is impracticable, but you can instead write the statues for pot to more or less mirror alcohol as much as possible, for the end purpose of making it clear and simple that the same laws will apply to both. The point would be to have clear, unmistakable, easy to convey messaging to the public that existing laws for alcohol effectively cover pot: If you can't drink alcohol somewhere, such as on a public transit platform, then you can't smoke pot there either--and especially motorized vehicles. (I cannot count the number of times I pass not merely parked but driven cars with marijuana fumes wafting from them.)  

Caveat: These new social districts for open consumption of alcohol complicate this, which is why I'm actually ambivalent about them, because it undoes this fantasy synergism! (And believe, me, alcohol is my drug of choice.)

Regardless, IMO this would solve innumerable problems with compliance and enforcement. But policy-makers just continually seem to be unable to take into account people's limited abilities to assimilate new information, especially if it's not helpful or interesting to them. It's a longstanding frustration for me how policy-makers don't consider equally both sides of policy-making: They just (lazily IMO) work through legal and procedural considerations and don't follow through to actual implementation and enforcement of regulations. 

My off topic six cents' worth ramble...

When I was looking around Wesley heights during my home search, I recall seeing some streetside behavior that made both me and my realtor uncomfortable.  She remarked, “give it a few years, these elements are being displaced.”  I recall thinking whether the burden should be on me to get more comfortable with displays of conduct I wasn’t used to, or whether the city should spend more resources “reforming” individuals to effect neighborhood improvements (whatever improvements might mean), or should my real estate decisions just feed into and ultimately ride the displacement wave to future higher values?

Edited February 23, 2023 by RANYC

[videtur quam contuor]

A view from the other end of the telescope:

When I moved to Dilworth a long time ago it was populated by citizens of penury; those too old and poor to move, those too young to afford any other location, those few with some assets but mentally and emotionally resistant to the contemporary mores of suburban living which was the other choice. The neighborhood was full of drug use, occasional vandalism, street crime.  I was young, poor, (fond of some drug use) and thus was willing to take my chances with those who seemed like me. There were homes used to house men who could not care for themselves, vagrants and some after dark enterprises. The neighborhood was more like me than it was different from me and I took my chances. It sounds more like a calculation now than it was at the time. I knew a few people who lived there so I was willing to chance the adventure.

In an odd twist, fifteen-twenty years later homes were increasing in value dramatically and people unlike me* were moving to the neighborhood-lawyers, doctors, capitalists. My folk were priced out. I could not buy my home if I had not already purchased it. I pined for my old neighbors. The social cohesion we had was gone. Time had changed all. 

*I had changed, of course. Time is but a mirror. Memory the reflection.

[Windsurfer]

7 hours ago, kermit said:

More staff presence would certainly help, and CATS seems to struggle with this, Blue line fare enforcement seems to be incredibly inconsistent. I either get checked twice on a single ride or don’t see any enforcement for months. I never thought their teams of 4-5 inspectors was a very efficient use of those resources -- every other US transit system I have seen used single fare inspectors rather than teams.

Edit: an addendum from today’s commute. Got my fare checked on both rides today (by a team of 4 each time). Couple sitting across from me had no ticket, but security suggested they download the app and buy it there. While security waited, the dude started to vape up a storm, something that was not commented on, or at all discouraged by security. Dude never bought his ticket in the app either. 
Do better CATS (and contractors)

This is what I was saying on here about three years ago after a demented individual got in my wife and daughter's face: We spend billions of dollars on these things but can't simply pay a $20/hour person(s) in uniform to pass among the cars checking tickets or answering tourist questions, ect? Having such a person in uniform mingling through the crowd would set a LOT of people at ease. 

[JRCLT]

A view from the other end of the telescope:
When I moved to Dilworth a long time ago it was populated by citizens of penury; those too old and poor to move, those too young to afford any other location, those few with some assets but mentally and emotionally resistant to the contemporary mores of suburban living which was the other choice. The neighborhood was full of drug use, occasional vandalism, street crime.  I was young, poor, (fond of some drug use) and thus was willing to take my chances with those who seemed like me. There were homes used to house men who could not care for themselves, vagrants and some after dark enterprises. The neighborhood was more like me than it was different from me and I took my chances. It sounds more like a calculation now than it was at the time. I knew a few people who lived there so I was willing to chance the adventure.
In an odd twist, fifteen-twenty years later homes were increasing in value dramatically and people unlike me* were moving to the neighborhood-lawyers, doctors, capitalists. My folk were priced out. I could not buy my home if I had not already purchased it. I pined for my old neighbors. The social cohesion we had was gone. Time had changed all. 
*I had changed, of course. Time is but a mirror. Memory the reflection.

Always a pleasure knowing about your anecdotal experience in relevance to the topic! : )

This is what I was saying on here about three years ago after a demented individual got in my wife and daughter's face: We spend billions of dollars on these things but can't simply pay a $20/hour person(s) in uniform to pass among the cars checking tickets or answering tourist questions, ect? Having such a person in uniform mingling through the crowd would set a LOT of people at ease. 

When we underfund it…we kinda struggle to pay higher wages…

[southslider]

Shared spaces are essential to cities.  Inconsiderate riders smoking still pose much less danger than selfish drivers smoking tires as they zip around you on a roadway.   Still, public spaces must strive for better, and can succeed when both designed well and well maintained.  Design can prevent blind spots. Blind spots provide opportunity. Maintenance upholds decorum. The broken window theory is that any neglect breaks down decorum.  The culture of decency is fragile in public spaces, and even more so, when not properly maintained.

[11 HouseBZ]

On 2/20/2023 at 8:06 AM, J-Rob said:

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/19/how-an-autonomous-train-bus-hybrid-could-transform-city-transit.html

I thought this was an interesting read. Funding for the light rail may never happen as currently proposed, but a Chinese company is proposing a solution that is about 1/5th the cost if you using existing roadways.  It is a hybrid bus/train.  It follows a dedicated path like a light rail, and feel like you are riding light rail, but the vehicle has rubber wheels.  I am not sure what I think about this. It seems like a bus, lol, but if it operated more like a light rail with frequent stops on a dedicated path, maybe it would seem more like a train.

The video in the article is interesting anyways. 

I also thought what was interesting about this was mentioned that routes could be changed or altered with need. Granted, 'changed' probably involves way more than just telling the vehicle to drive somewhere else. But could allow cities to test alternative routing to best serve the city in real time without having to commit to just one route. Perhaps if there is certain infrastructure needed to assist the vehicle along the its route, we can have several 'routes' set up that the vehicle can be altered to depending on circumstances (i.e. concerts, sports, festivals). Then after those events, it can be put back on its regular route. Very interesting article J-Rob. Thanks.

[Reverie39]

On 2/23/2023 at 10:40 AM, ertley said:

I know this is slightly off topic... but, living in DC, I've of course been surrounded by pot smoking in public for years now, and while I'm generally inured to it, I have had similar situations where people wholly abuse this right by smoking in crowded public spaces, in front of children, especially...

I have spent more time in DC than NC lately and I very much agree with this. The situation is completely out of control in that city. Feels like anytime I need to walk anywhere, I catch at least one gigantic whiff of smoke just blown out by someone with no regard for how close I was to them. And I do see it around children as well. It's not my business what people do in privacy but I think all cities should take a stand against this kind of public behavior, Charlotte included.

[DownEast]

2 hours ago, Reverie39 said:

I have spent more time in DC than NC lately and I very much agree with this. The situation is completely out of control in that city. Feels like anytime I need to walk anywhere, I catch at least one gigantic whiff of smoke just blown out by someone with no regard for how close I was to them. And I do see it around children as well. It's not my business what people do in privacy but I think all cities should take a stand against this kind of public behavior, Charlotte included.

I work in Friendship Heights and I've been working all over the District for the last 2+ years.  Couple members of the cleaning crew at my office will literally step outside for a break and when they come back in it literally takes over the room, which is a fairly large open floor space. I certainly participated many years before I chose a career that prohibits it. But damn, certainly seems more pungent than it used to be.  Even when I'm driving I'm picking up heavy notes.

Edited February 25, 2023 by DownEast

[kermit]

54 minutes ago, DownEast said:

But damn, certainly seems more pungent than it used to be. 

100%

Different subject:

This is a nice example for our unobtainable Red Line. I can vouch for this, the A Line works really well (and is relatively crowded)

 

 

Edited February 25, 2023 by kermit

[go_vertical]

A friend of mine lives in the Bell Uptown building across from Bearden Park and on a few occasions when I've visited him his hallway reeks.  He said other floors are the same.  He also said he has experienced the same thing in the Museum Tower.  I have no problem with the use of the stuff as long as your not overwhelming your neighbors with it.  If I were paying what it costs to live in these buildings I would be pretty damn pissed.  If you don't have a balcony or windows that open then do it in the bathroom with the exhaust fan on. 

[kermit]

So, we are a relatively doable GoFundme away from Charlotte becoming the world capital of guerrilla  urbanism! For just $188k (15% off today and free shipping! Only 10 left!) we can get a tunnel boring machine and dig our own Trade Street tunnel under uptown.  I think we gotta do this.

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804375342465.html

[1000mm is about 3.2 feet, and I doubt its mud under uptown but still…]
 

 

Edited March 2, 2023 by kermit

[go_vertical]

Welp..... That isn't a misleading product listing photo at all.  No sir. 

[15895]

Looks like CATS may not be posting monthly ridership data anymore. I hope that’s not the case because I like seeing the break down of ridership by Lynx, CityLynx, Express & Local routes 

CATS continues to struggle with ridership having been the lowest of other transit agencies I’ve seen since early 2022.

Richmond has consistently been above 100% for months since implementing BRT & revamping their bus systems which has been a big success. 

MTC Jan 2023 Report
https://charlottenc.gov/cats/boards/MTC Agenda Package/MTC_Final_Agenda_Tuesday_January_31_2023.pdf

From the Report:

Survey Responses from Silver Line alignment options:

Also interesting light rail recovered stronger than bus and over such a sustained period of time. For mostlY all other agencies, it seemed to be opposite of bus outperforming rail. 

Edited March 4, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[KJHburg]

lets hope some of these upcoming NC made Siemens train cars end up in Charlotte.

https://press.siemens.com/global/en/pressrelease/siemens-mobility-invest-220-million-north-carolina-rail-manufacturing-facility

[kermit]

4 hours ago, KJHburg said:

lets hope some of these upcoming NC made Siemens train cars end up in Charlotte.

https://press.siemens.com/global/en/pressrelease/siemens-mobility-invest-220-million-north-carolina-rail-manufacturing-facility

Fantastic news.

I suspect (but am not certain) that the facility will mainly be used to build heavy-rail passenger rolling stock (Amtrak and Brightline's new coaches and locomotives — Amtrak has a huge pending order). I think LRT manufacturing remains in Sacramento for the time being. Having said that, Boston is having so much trouble with its CRRC Orange Line replacement vehicles combined with China trade concerns means that Siemens is likely to see a huge demand spike for transit vehicles soon and Lexington will likely be key to meeting that demand. 

If this facility does build transit vehicles then it will also help (a bit) with getting our transit plan approved in Raleigh. We can now go to the legislature and say the Silver Line will create factory jobs in Lexington (assuming we stick w Siemens equipment).

EDIT:

The Trains story implies that this will be heavy rail manufacturing only _in Phase 1_ (no mention of what other phases might look like). Siemens does throw this statement out (which would have saved CATS a bunch of aggravation)

Quote

“There’s plenty of room to expand, and it would be great to be able to get some big orders and get into the locomotive space possibly, or some other car type in the future.”

He notes that the new Lexington plant will be a dual-purpose facility “that will build trains and do service on our existing fleet. This gives us the opportunity to bring in cars, locomotives, and light rail vehicles to help service our customers on the East Coast so they don’t have to transport all the way across the country — that was one of the main drivers.”

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/siemens-to-build-220-million-railcar-factory-in-north-carolina/

Edited March 7, 2023 by kermit