CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[XRZ.ME]

So there is a trainset loaned from other transit agency?

Two trainsets have been mid-cycle overhaul finished (one still on route) with bearing problem fixed.

[kayman]

Huntersville Mayor Melinda Bales has just also called for a formation of a regional transit authority. 

19 hours ago, XRZ.ME said:

So there is a trainset loaned from other transit agency?

Two trainsets have been mid-cycle overhaul finished (one still on route) with bearing problem fixed.

Yep, because the City of Charlotte led by a city manager who lacks transparency and a part-time, 2-year, city council has impaired CATS, a major transit system, the ability to handle this type of situation.  The CoC needs to examine why this has occurred and why it needs to let go of this entity. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by kayman

[kayman]

Even the bureaucracy of the City of Charlotte procurement has limited the abilities to expedite the process of hiring an outside, independent transit consultant to do the assessment of the governance issues, cause of derailment, and remedies to operation deficiencies. This is a mess. 

Edited March 22, 2023 by kayman

[elrodvt]

It's a foggy memory but didn't Lyles say Charlotte will "always be a car city" during a campaign? If so, not having her with oversight could be a positive all on it's own.

[buildleft]

Yes, CATS is a complete disaster and wholly inadequate for a city of our size. But I fail to see how forming a regional authority would help. Political authority would shift towards transit-hesitant Republican governments in the surrounding counties, consensus on long-range planning would grow increasingly difficult, and large-scale, high-dollar capital investment projects would almost exclusively serve suburban and exurban interests. Regional bodies already in place like CRTPO and the MTC have already shown that authorities extending beyond city borders create a suburban mindset. The MTC is all-in on a multi-billion dollar, nearly 30-mile(!) light rail line to Union/Gaston counties and a commuter rail line to Iredell that will never happen. Meanwhile, getting around Charlotte within Route 4 (the sole part of our metropolitan region with land use suited to transit) is still extremely difficult without a car. Coverage is low, frequencies are awful, reliability isn't great, and most stops are just a pole in the ground. Personally, I don't see how broadening oversight of transit to suburban governments would fix any of these problems, and in fact would likely worsen structural problems with how transit funds are provisioned in the Charlotte region.

CATS definitely needs a wholesale cleanup. The entire leadership of CATS needs to be replaced with competent, experienced people who genuinely want to see ridership increase and transit succeed, and city council must maintain a greater focus on transit and not let these significant problems continue indefinitely. However, imho a regional authority is not a step in the right direction.

Oh, and if you would like an independent transit management consultant to fix all of our problems created by John Lewis, may I suggest... TransPro transit management consulting leader John Lewis.

[kayman]

1 hour ago, buildleft said:

Yes, CATS is a complete disaster and wholly inadequate for a city of our size. But I fail to see how forming a regional authority would help. Political authority would shift towards transit-hesitant Republican governments in the surrounding counties, consensus on long-range planning would grow increasingly difficult, and large-scale, high-dollar capital investment projects would almost exclusively serve suburban and exurban interests. Regional bodies already in place like CRTPO and the MTC have already shown that authorities extending beyond city borders create a suburban mindse

The MTC is all-in on a multi-billion dollar, nearly 30-mile(!) light rail line to Union/Gaston counties and a commuter rail line to Iredell that will never happen. Meanwhile, getting around Charlotte within Route 4 (the sole part of our metropolitan region with land use suited to transit) is still extremely difficult without a car. Coverage is low, frequencies are awful, reliability isn't great, and most stops are just a pole in the ground. Personally, I don't see how broadening oversight of transit to suburban governments would fix any of these problems, and in fact would likely worsen structural problems with how transit funds are provisioned in the Charlotte region.

CATS definitely needs a wholesale cleanup. The entire leadership of CATS needs to be replaced with competent, experienced people who genuinely want to see ridership increase and transit succeed, and city council must maintain a greater focus on transit and not let these significant problems continue indefinitely. However, imho a regional authority is not a step in the right direction.

Oh, and if you would like an independent transit management consultant to fix all of our problems created by John Lewis, may I suggest... TransPro transit management consulting leader John Lewis.

CRTPO is a metropolitan planning organization (MPO), which is federally mandated by the FHWA and FTA to consider the interest of all municipalities and counties within the urban area of 50,000 or more.  Unless said jurisdictions opt to be a part of another MPO.  They ironically have happened here because the York County portion of the Charlotte urban area is planned by the RFATS MPO housed in the City of Rock Hill.  The Charlotte urban area is in 4 counties (Mecklenburg, Union, Iredell, and York counties).  Tbh, CRTPO shouldn't even be lead nor housed within the City of Charlotte municipal government because it gives majority of the influence of federally mandated metropolitan planning level decisions to one government (Charlotte) when it affects the entire urban area.  That's why 9 out 10 times MPOs are housed in regional councils or councils of governments such as the Centralina Regional Council to neutralize overzealous influence.   CRTPO acts and operates like it is a City of Charlotte board, which is a fatally flaw philosophy for a MPO when you know that sooner than later those suburban governments are seeing that increasingly in the policy decisions.  Regardless of our own philosophies of the non-Charlotte municipalities in the urban area, Charlotte shouldn't be the housing agency for a MPO.   You might want to read this article from Tennessee that discusses the fatal flaws that occurred in Nashville with its MPO: (https://www.nashvillepost.com/politics/amp-haunting-nashville-from-the-grave/article_852b5cc4-1bb9-5aaf-93b4-238f011cc43d.html )  Yeah, that issue was remarkably like the problems here with Charlotte's MPO with the current I-77 South managed/express lanes project over the Charlotte weighted vote situation.

Regardless, of what is said in the interlocal agreements MTC operates as a City of Charlotte board.  "A wholesale cleanup" as you said will not solve the problems. 4532001-charlotte-catsreview-presentation.pdf

 

The report on pages 8, 13, and 14 shows that CATS doesn't have a clear line of leadership nor direction at all.  The MTC was created to be a regional oversight of the operations and expansion efforts of CATS from the enabling state-initiated legislative actions.  However, the City of Charlotte through the City Manager's office (through the Assistant City Manager who the CATS CEO reports to) has direct influence and involvement in the daily operations of CATS.  CATS operates as a COC department. The pages (8, 13, and 14) of the attached report show CATS leadership and organizational structure is a quagmire of leadership and influence and needs an organizational reform.   How can a competent and seasoned public transportation professional from elsewhere would want to take on the role of the CATS CEO when the MTC and the COC City Council both can initiate their termination procedures if either is not satisfied with their decisions?   In other words, the CEO is asked to serve two masters at once but runs the risk of failing to satisfy at least one of them.  There is a clause in the interlocal agreement for the MTC bylaws to allow any member jurisdiction with a budgetary or operational decision to exit the agreement.  In other words, this mess of CATS organizational structure is convoluted at best and set up to fail at its worst.  

CATS is an enterprise fund directly funded by the Mecklenburg County transit sales tax.  Said sales tax is funded by all of the taxpayers who either live or shop in Mecklenburg County.  The fact that the City of Charlotte has overwhelming influence over that is problematic at best.  All of the 6 other municipal jurisdictions including Mecklenburg County ought to have equal footing over the voting decisions since they are state mandated by law to participate in this sales tax collection by default unless they decide to exit the participation. MTC or whatever policy/budgetary board should be a part of an independent authority seperate from the City of Charlotte or its City Manager control because it is a regionally funded entity.  Said CATS CEO in leadership will always act on the behalf of their direct supervisor (Charlotte City Manager) for their own professional advancement and (annual) performance review rather than acting on the well-being of the regional community.  I agree that service operations should be restored but it shows that there is a culture of "do what you need to do" inherently exposed by the report along with the recently exposed issues. The Charlotte City Manager's office is clearly the source of these operational problems with "this silent keep things under wraps for public image" culture regardless of what is not said aloud. 

Furthermore, unless other counties such as Cabarrus, Gaston, Union, or York decided to implement their own county-level transit sales tax then they will continue to be non-voting (ex-officio) members of the said independent policy board over CATS operations because they must pay into to be able to influence and vote on anything.  I highly doubt any of those counties will be able to do such at this point in the next 5 years regardless.  

In other words, the City of Charlotte itself cannot have superfluous influence over every regional body.  Especially, when the funding for the regional transit comes from a county-level tax that covers all of Mecklenburg County.  Or in the case of CRTPO, it is mandated and funded by federal funding source.

Edited March 23, 2023 by kayman

[seththom]

3 hours ago, buildleft said:

But I fail to see how forming a regional authority would help. Political authority would shift towards transit-hesitant Republican governments in the surrounding counties, consensus on long-range planning would grow increasingly difficult, and large-scale, high-dollar capital investment projects would almost exclusively serve suburban and exurban interests. Regional bodies already in place like CRTPO and the MTC have already shown that authorities extending beyond city borders create a suburban mindset.

Alan Fisher has a great video on this on how this has created problems within SEPTA, specifically the (now cancelled) Norristown High Speed Line extension to King of Prussia, highlighting the fact that additional suburban influence can lead to some seriously flawed investment.

TL;DR: Philadelphia gets 2 seats on the SEPTA board and is granted veto power; Bucks, Montgomery, Chester, and Delaware counties get two seats each, and 5 members from State government (Governor, Senate and House Majority/Minority leaders) get seats, leading to Philadelphia proper only having ~13% of influence despite representing approximately ~80% of daily ridership (both subway lines are almost entirely in Philadelphia county). 

Something at the Mecklenburg level, at least for CATS, makes much more sense imo. Introducing areas that largely favor auto transport (Cabarrus, Gaston, Rowan, and god forbid either SC county) is going to lead to a governance structure that pulls investment from Mecklenburg and lead to development patterns that favor suburban commuters rather than improving interurban connectivity in Charlotte. I feel the density required to support high frequency, reliable transit doesn't really exist outside of Charlotte's urban core. 

I think the best approach is to have two separate, but coordinating transit agencies or departments (i.e. San Diego with NCTD and SDMTS) where one focuses specifically on Charlotte, and the other focuses exclusively on regional connectivity with commuter rail and express buses. It would allow for each organization to have funding sources and governance that best benefits all constituents within the Charlotte area. Funding for each could come from the appropriate populations and better represent the goals of each.

[kayman]

13 minutes ago, seththom said:

Alan Fisher has a great video on this on how this has created problems within SEPTA, specifically the (now cancelled) Norristown High Speecanceledtension to King of Prussia, highlighting the fact that additional suburban influence can lead to some seriously flawed investment.

TL;DR: Philadelphia gets 2 seats on the SEPTA board and is granted veto power; Bucks, Montgomery, Chester, and Delaware counties get two seats each, and 5 members from State government (Governor, Senate, and House Majority/Minority leaders) get seats, leading to Philadelphia proper only having ~13% of influence despite representing approximately ~80% of daily ridership (both subway lines are almost entirely in Philadelphia county). 

Something at the Mecklenburg level, at least for CATS, makes much more sense imo. Introducing areas that largely favor auto transport (Cabarrus, Gaston, Rowan, and god forbid either SC county) is going to lead to a governance structure that pulls investment from Mecklenburg and lead to development patterns that favor suburban commuters rather than improving interurban connectivity in Charlotte. I feel the density required to support high frequency, reliable transit doesn't exist outside of Charlotte's urban core. 

I think the best approach is to have two separate, but coordinating transit agencies or departments (i.e. San Diego with NCTD and SDMTS) where one focuses specifically on Charlotte, and the other focuses exclusively on regional connectivity with commuter rail and express buses. It would allow for each organization to have funding sources and governance that best benefits all constituents within the Charlotte area. Funding for each could come from the appropriate populations and better represent the goals of each.

I think two separate systems of a regional governance structure might work.

I still believe another discrete public-funded, entity separate from the City of Charlotte municipal operation should have policy, budgetary, and personnel oversight of the daily CATS transit operations.  The way the Mecklenburg County transit sales tax is setup as an enterprise fund basically requires the City of Charlotte to share its power equitably in oversight with the other 6 Mecklenburg County in decision-making. That makes sense considering how Charlotte funds a larger share, but many of the projects such as the LYNX Red Line, Silver Line, and the express buses all leaves Charlotte city limits. Other local bus service routes are funded by and serve the other 6 Mecklenburg municipalities, so those entities should have equitable shares of influence as well.

The other counties can have their own separate, regional public transit entity that would coordinate with the independently run authority over CATS on bigger projects.

 

[15895]

I don’t think one size fits all. 

I Completely see how Authorities can cater too much to suburbanites, with Philadelphia as a good example (or BART imo). But I think an Authority would be best for Charlotte, specifically.  If we are talking for rail transit, I think it’s perfectly fine to serve suburbs well as long as the intercity routes fit the needs of the city and it can work well. Everywhere is pretty unique and what works in one place doesn’t work in another. Will Charlotte do bigger and better things running CATS than an authority? I don’t think I could say they could. 

Most Authorities have been successes and IMO have seen bigger successes than non-authorities. If I’m not mistaken, some of y’all know way more than me on mass transit governance. What would Denver look like without its regional authority?

Look at Portland for Example.

These are the districts of board members represented by the TriMet board.

 

Here is their rail system. Suburbs get their rail but it’s routed through the core & TOD nodes that fits the needs of urbanites. 

 

I also don’t think republicans at the level and functions of say serving on regional transit authorities are that bad. They’re usually cooperative when it comes to things like that or election positions, & civic related issues etc. So while I’m always critical about state GOP, I think these positions we shouldn’t be too afraid of them. 

Only using WMATA (also an authority) as an example because I like this map that shows frequency and I can’t find a better chart other other cities. Charlotte - & other cities - can serve the suburbs AND the urban core(s) at the same time. If Gaston County wants to foot part of the bill for a light rail extension & tell their GOP friends in the state to throw a bone, route it through the urban core in a way that suits the cities needs and gives the suburbs their token rail (which we should want the metropolitan area to have various transit oriented cores/nodes) and not just uptown. 

 

But ignoring future extensions and plans, I think an authority would have better oversight and run it more properly. Long-term. Meck needs Gaston, union, etc for any ambitious plans. The metropolitan area is quite red outside of meck. The state legislature is solid red for the foreseeable future. This is an area where NC gop & Dems can work together. 
 

just my IMO. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[kayman]

28 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I don’t think one size fits all. 

I Completely see how Authorities can cater too much to suburbanites, with Philadelphia as a good example (or BART imo). But I think an Authority would be best for Charlotte, specifically.  If we are talking for rail transit, I think it’s perfectly fine to serve suburbs well as long as the intercity routes fit the needs of the city and it can work well. Everywhere is pretty unique and what works in one place doesn’t work in another. Will Charlotte do bigger and better things running CATS than an authority? I don’t think I could say they could. 

Most Authorities have been successes and IMO have seen bigger successes than non-authorities. If I’m not mistaken, some of y’all know way more than me on mass transit governance. What would Denver look like without its regional authority?

Look at Portland for Example.

These are the districts of board members represented by the TriMet board.

 

Here is their rail system. 

 

I also don’t think republicans at the level and functions of say serving on regional transit authorities are that bad. They’re usually cooperative when it comes to things like that or election positions, & civic related issues etc. So while I’m always critical about state GOP, I think these positions we shouldn’t be too afraid of them. 

Only using WMATA (also an authority) as an example because I like this map that shows frequency and I can’t find a better chart other other cities. Charlotte - & other cities - can serve the suburbs AND the urban core(s) at the same time. If Gaston County wants to foot part of the bill for a light rail extension & tell their GOP friends in the state to throw a bone, route it through the urban core in a way that suits the cities needs and gives the suburbs their token rail (which we should want the metropolitan area to have various transit oriented cores/nodes) and not just uptown. 

 

But ignoring future extensions and plans, I think an authority would have better oversight and run it more properly. Long-term. Meck needs Gaston, union, etc for any ambitious plans. The metropolitan area is quite red outside of meck. The state legislature is solid red for the foreseeable future. This is an area where NC gop & Dems can work together. 
 

just my IMO. 

I agree about everything except the part about the NCGA staying solid red. NC is shifting so quickly that I am sure that the NCGA will be split i.e., "purple" before the end of this decade. Locally, both Gaston and Cabarrus counties are shifting politically more from magenta to purple very quickly with the new residents are not of similar demographics to the current status quo prominently influencing decisions. Both counties will be soon more on-board with regional transit than the years before.

[buildleft]

7 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I don’t think one size fits all. 

I Completely see how Authorities can cater too much to suburbanites, with Philadelphia as a good example (or BART imo). But I think an Authority would be best for Charlotte, specifically.  If we are talking for rail transit, I think it’s perfectly fine to serve suburbs well as long as the intercity routes fit the needs of the city and it can work well. Everywhere is pretty unique and what works in one place doesn’t work in another. Will Charlotte do bigger and better things running CATS than an authority? I don’t think I could say they could. 

Most Authorities have been successes and IMO have seen bigger successes than non-authorities. If I’m not mistaken, some of y’all know way more than me on mass transit governance. What would Denver look like without its regional authority?

Look at Portland for Example.

These are the districts of board members represented by the TriMet board.

 

Here is their rail system. Suburbs get their rail but it’s routed through the core & TOD nodes that fits the needs of urbanites. 

 

I also don’t think republicans at the level and functions of say serving on regional transit authorities are that bad. They’re usually cooperative when it comes to things like that or election positions, & civic related issues etc. So while I’m always critical about state GOP, I think these positions we shouldn’t be too afraid of them. 

Only using WMATA (also an authority) as an example because I like this map that shows frequency and I can’t find a better chart other other cities. Charlotte - & other cities - can serve the suburbs AND the urban core(s) at the same time. If Gaston County wants to foot part of the bill for a light rail extension & tell their GOP friends in the state to throw a bone, route it through the urban core in a way that suits the cities needs and gives the suburbs their token rail (which we should want the metropolitan area to have various transit oriented cores/nodes) and not just uptown. 

 

But ignoring future extensions and plans, I think an authority would have better oversight and run it more properly. Long-term. Meck needs Gaston, union, etc for any ambitious plans. The metropolitan area is quite red outside of meck. The state legislature is solid red for the foreseeable future. This is an area where NC gop & Dems can work together. 
 

just my IMO. 

I can definitely understand the thought process behind a single, regional authority for transit in the metro area and with proper governance structuring I believe it could actually be quite effective. However, suburban expansion is not the only path towards ambition, and Charlotte doesn't need Gaston, Union, or any other county to use (for example) a 1¢ sales tax effectively. In my view, cost effectiveness as analyzed through cost per passenger km is the most straightforward way to develop successful transit and, frankly, spending limited funding on low-frequency long-distance suburban light rail is not how the city will reach its supposed goals of a 50-50 auto/non-auto modal split as adopted in the Strategic Mobility Plan. I've attached some maps to show how a regional vs. municipal agency could (or likely would) prioritize capital investment.

Map 1, metropolitan authority: current rail network + silver line + red line (+ new South End station)

Map 2, municipal authority: blue line (+ new South End station) + phase III of gold line w/ conversion to light rail, Stewart Creek branch, and Albemarle extension + central segment of silver line

Suburban expansion through just the full silver line buildout is nearly 29mi of new track while the denser, more urban network that stays within city limits is only 23.6mi of new track. The gold line projects would avoid costly ROW acquisitions while the shortened silver line, not having to continue west to Gaston, could have direct terminal access at CLT. As an example of the consequences of costs: considering that the silver line is already planned to have significant grade-separated segments, the extra ~$1.5 billion saved in this scenario could be used to fully grade-separate the line, and in turn achieve automation w/ 4min headways instead of 20min headways. And to harp on the importance of gold line phase III: even though today's gold line is objectively abysmal, it has immense potential. The 9 (Central) and 7 (Beatties Ford) are already the city's top two highest-ridership bus routes, so (partially) replacing them with a higher capacity/quality product is kind of a slam dunk.

Lastly, I want to respond to one point specifically... the transit situation in Denver would arguably look much better without its regional authority! A single 8 mile mass transit route down E Colfax would likely have higher ridership than the sum of the city's 113 mile light rail network, but the city couldn't pursue such a route because RTD is obligated to spend transit $$$ to serve suburbs with rail along poorly chosen corridors without any significant changes to station-area land use.

I guess my point is that this is all a game of priorities, and a metropolitan transit authority would have fundamentally different (and as a Charlotte native and urban planning student, worse) priorities than a municipal one.

Edited March 24, 2023 by buildleft

[southslider]

^Why not both?  Regional expansion should focus on commuter rail and rapid bus, while the urban core can focus on light rail and bus priority.  Mecklenburg Towns, and the North Towns collectively, could opt either to add more tax for a combined strategy or transfer their existing half-cent for only regional investments.  Beyond Mecklenburg would only have the new tax option, thereby limiting the expectation of projects and range of the LYNX system.

Re-purposed the existing half-cent could cover a reimagined core plan in order of political priorities-- Bus Priority projects, Red Line purchase, Silver Line from Blue Line to Matthews Township Parkway, Red Line LRT (more near-term 77 BRT via regional tax), New Line to Airport, and Blue Line to Ballantyne (more near-term 485 BRT via regional tax).

[JRCLT]

Is the CSX line that goes through Matthews’s under heavy use by freight? It could be a nice commuter corridor. Silver line I wouldn’t mind being shortened to center city-ish and maybe even add a leg of the gold or a new line to to south park. Also bus loops connecting between lines would be a (non-data backed or low evidence/just a thought) way of providing flexibility and convenience. At short frequencies. No idea how that would be implemented.

[kermit]

16 minutes ago, JeanClt said:

Is the CSX line that goes through Matthews’s under heavy use by freight? It could be a nice commuter corridor

Nope, not heavy use. It is a secondary line for CSX and they have shown they are willing to sell off secondary lines for reasonable prices.

Its possible (but certainly not likely) that CATS could purchase the CSX tracks from Monroe to Paw Creek (or Bostic), run commuter rail during the day, and allow CSX to carry freight at night. Unfortunately the corridor would require a substantial amount of $$$ to double track or add a bunch of sidings to make commuter service worthwhile. But yea, I think Matthews (and certainly anything in Union County) would be much better served with regional rail than LRT.

(I doubt CATS could run commuter rail west of Tryon st given the flat crossing of NS under 277. NS controls the flow over that junction and they are protective of it)

[JRCLT]

Nope, not heavy use. It is a secondary line for CSX and they have shown they are willing to sell off secondary lines for reasonable prices.
Its possible (but certainly not likely) that CATS could purchase the CSX tracks from Monroe to Paw Creek (or Bostic), run commuter rail during the day, and allow CSX to carry freight at night. Unfortunately the corridor would require a substantial amount of $$$ to double track or add a bunch of sidings to make commuter service worthwhile. But yea, I think Matthews (and certainly anything in Union County) would be much better served with regional rail than LRT.
(I doubt CATS could run commuter rail west of Tryon st given the flat crossing of NS under 277. NS controls the flow over that junction and they are protective of it)

Surprising considering the redline…and it’s emphasis. I recall seeing what you mentioned about usage on here before, but just wanted to confirm. Thanks for that! Redline would require double tracking as well so unless I’m missing something the O-Line has over this CSX secondary route…I don’t see why this wasn’t an option??

[kermit]

1 hour ago, JeanClt said:

Surprising considering the redline…and it’s emphasis. I recall seeing what you mentioned about usage on here before, but just wanted to confirm. Thanks for that! Redline would require double tracking as well so unless I’m missing something the O-Line has over this CSX secondary route…I don’t see why this wasn’t an option??

The NS O-Line and CSX Charlotte subdivision are apples and oranges. The O-Line tracks carry virtually nothing these days (much less than the CSX Charlotte subdivision). But, the O-Line is important to NS since it provides the railroad with their only N-S route on this side of the Appalachians other than the NCRR tracks which they lease rather than own. NS will need to start renegotiating that lease in about 12 (ish -- I am not sure about timing) years. They know they loose substantial negotiating power in their lease renewal if the O-Line tracks are full of CATS commuter trains (and thus can't absorb the freight currently running on the NCRR between Charlotte and Greensboro).

This is really just theater, the O-Line is a crappy freight route for NS (slow, single tracked and poorly located), but by just sitting on it and dangling  the possibility of its resurgence, NS will save themselves several $10s of millions. The CSX Charlotte sub doesn't do much for CSX beyond access to the tanks at Paw Creek, ADM downtown (who's days may be numbered) and the Charlotte intermodal yard (which might be more efficient in Monroe,  Waxhaw or Southern York County)

Edited March 25, 2023 by kermit

[JRCLT]

The NS O-Line and CSX Charlotte subdivision are apples and oranges. The O-Line tracks carry virtually nothing these days (much less than the CSX Charlotte subdivision). But, the O-Line is important to NS since it provides the railroad with their only N-S route on this side of the Appalachians other than the NCRR tracks which they lease rather than own. NS will need to start renegotiating that lease in about 12 (ish -- I am not sure about timing) years. They know they loose substantial negotiating power in their lease renewal if the O-Line tracks are full of CATS commuter trains (and thus can't absorb the freight currently running on the NCRR between Charlotte and Greensboro).
This is really just theater, the O-Line is a crappy freight route for NS (slow, single tracked and poorly located), but by just sitting on it and dangling  the possibility of its resurgence, NS will save themselves several $10s of millions. The CSX Charlotte sub doesn't do much for CSX beyond access to the tanks at Paw Creek, ADM downtown (who's days may be numbered) and the Charlotte intermodal yard (which might be more efficient in Monroe,  Waxhaw or Southern York County)

I’m talking about expense. How cats pursued the redline but not a line to Monroe/Mathew? If that makes sense?

[elrodvt]

Serious question. I have this perception that commuter rail is kind of getting into the big leagues. We cannot manage a very small LRT network (minor league). What has to happen to be able to step up to commuter rail and given the cities track record would they pay to get what I assume are higher level skills? 

[southslider]

CSX could be commuter rail, much like the NCRR corridor. Red Line just makes more sense now as LRT, given several factors. The connection in Uptown will now have to be along Statesville and Graham to reach Uptown. Camp North End shows the promise of more stations in Charlotte.  Davidson and Cornelius were always close together for CR spacing, and even Huntersville can have more stations. And with the recent Ohio derailment, NSRR will be hungry for cash and more willing to sell.

[buildleft]

2 hours ago, southslider said:

CSX could be commuter rail, much like the NCRR corridor. Red Line just makes more sense now as LRT, given several factors. The connection in Uptown will now have to be along Statesville and Graham to reach Uptown. Camp North End shows the promise of more stations in Charlotte.  Davidson and Cornelius were always close together for CR spacing, and even Huntersville can have more stations. And with the recent Ohio derailment, NSRR will be hungry for cash and more willing to sell.

I'm not trying to be overly critical but in what ways does LRT make more sense for the red line? It just seems like the cost would be astronomical, journey times to Mooresville could take up to 90min, and I can't imagine it would get decent ridership, let alone as strong as what the blue line currently gets (which isn't much...)

Though I solidly agree that there should be more stations within Charlotte

[kermit]

8 hours ago, JeanClt said:

I’m talking about expense. How cats pursued the redline but not a line to Monroe/Mathew? If that makes sense?

Much higher ridership from N Meck.

[JRCLT]

Much higher ridership from N Meck.

Yeah that makes sense. Thank you for your insight Kermit! You may not know this, but would light rail cost less than improving this corridor and buying it from CSX considering even just from Matthews to uptown. The silver line route, would it be more than the billions spent on engineering of the line to Matthews and real estate acquisitions versus this CSX corridor which wouldn’t be as much a problem (from what you’ve said and my observations). Their corridor isn’t as constrained as the redline and has relatively less bends especially south of Matthews that could support high speeds maintained properly. Considering this to take a gateway station stop. I’m not sure if I’m making sense. It just seems like a good place to start to me considering the Silver Line inflated price of the CSX line may be a better investment. Also since they wanted to extend it to union county…? Wouldn’t commuter rail be faster and more appropriate? I think the Silver line should be shortened to the center city/airport portion and built first. Then maybe extend the terminus outward if the need ever arises at a later date. Put a focus on commuter rail instead.

[kermit]

36 minutes ago, JeanClt said:

Yeah that makes sense. Thank you for your insight Kermit! You may not know this, but would light rail cost less than improving this corridor and buying it from CSX considering even just from Matthews to uptown. The silver line route, would it be more than the billions spent on engineering of the line to Matthews and real estate acquisitions versus this CSX corridor which wouldn’t be as much a problem (from what you’ve said and my observations). Their corridor isn’t as constrained as the redline and has relatively less bends especially south of Matthews that could support high speeds maintained properly. Considering this to take a gateway station stop. I’m not sure if I’m making sense. It just seems like a good place to start to me considering the Silver Line inflated price of the CSX line may be a better investment. Also since they wanted to extend it to union county…? Wouldn’t commuter rail be faster and more appropriate? I think the Silver line should be shortened to the center city/airport portion and built first. Then maybe extend the terminus outward if the need ever arises at a later date. Put a focus on commuter rail instead.

Were CSX willing to sell at a reasonable price, Commuter/Regional rail would be much cheaper than a Silver LRT. Commuter/Regional rail would be a faster (but less frequent) trip from uptown to Matthews, but there would be many fewer stops for circulation within the city (maybe Central ave, Woodlawn and Sardis). In short it would be a service for suburbanites and do relatively little for Charlotte residents. 

Track geometry should allow for OK speeds, but the large number of grade crossings would slow things back down. The route would require the hated 11th street (sort of) Uptown route and would have a poor / horrible connection w the Blue Line.

Edited March 26, 2023 by kermit

[15895]

I hate “commuter” rail outside of dense regions or multi-nodal metropolitan areas. Unless it’s like Denver’s or somewhere where it’s all day/all week and frequent. Which to me is basically just heavy rail at that point. 

Even being slower than commuter rail, I’d imagine light rail to north Meck would kill commuter rails butt in ridership. Is it even that far for light rail to go to North Meck? 40 minutes? Plus it could foster TOD around NorthLake, and other areas. It’d be nice to have a mall connection. Plus maybe it could revitalize NorthLake etc, provide car free options and give people options of living car free around LRT stations. Something commuter rail wouldn’t. 

Investing all that money for 0 ridership on weekends and a few thousand during the weekday? Seems like a waste of time, energy and resources. At a $700M+ price tag. I’m not buying it. Plus the state is moving to lower taxes even more, so. 

Austin’s commuter rail has 1,400 daily weekday ridership which is less than the Gold Line in Charlotte. In 2010, when it first opened. Ridership was less than 1,000. It doesn’t operate on Sundays. It operates every 35 minutes on Saturdays. During the weekday the last train to downtown is 5:30pm and the last train from downtown is 6:48pm excluding Friday. 

The  Charlotte red line, imo, should be heavy, Heavy-light or light rail or just BRT. Commuter rail is too costly for a couple thousand people on the weekday. TRE (Dallas) is 3,500 daily ridership connecting significant destinations in a metro area of 8 million people. There’s bigger mobility issues to spend nearly a billion dollars on than commuter rail to North Meck & Iredell. Expand the streetcar another 5 miles and it’ll probably have more ridership than a commuter rail. 

If you’re not commuting from the suburbs to uptown for work. Would red like commuter be useful otherwise? Reverse commuting probably wouldn’t be possible. Likely wouldn’t run on weekends. So $700M for a couple thousand - of that - for Lake Norman suburbanites to park at a park & ride away from the lake or Birkdale that Charlotteans couldn’t use to go to Davidson. Meh. (Btw, I was big on red line as a former LKN resident. But what changed my position is, money is limited in North Carolina and the only use for it is commuting to uptown.) 

It doesn’t really matter though - the red line commuter rail is never gonna happen unless taxes are raised and the state commits $250,000,000 to it, the feds commit a huge chunk and the city and county pony up the rest. Good luck. 

Edited March 26, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[kermit]

^ Yea, the remote work shift has pretty much killed off traditional commuter rail in the US (even if 80% return to their offices). But, that is not to say demand for transit has declined, just that demand for service that exclusively caters to work commuters has declined. Austin's  Red Line sucks because its service frequency is so limited, it would attract plenty of riders with a higher-frequency schedule.

A regional rail model (frequent, two-way, service all day and on weekends) has shown to be popular in the post-covid age. Regional rail is essentially a transit (rather than commuter) service but run on heavy rail tracks, the Denver A Line follows this schedule model (thanks to heavy, constant traffic from the airport) as does SEPTA (sometimes on some lines). There are three reasons why CATS would struggle with the regional rail model: First, that sort of frequency really needs electrification to be efficient, but freight railroads hate that (and it would increase construction costs substantially). Second, I doubt ridership would be sufficient to justify high frequency service on the Matthews/Monroe line -- it could work (I think) on the Red.  Third, given CATS's struggles to staff the Blue Line, they would REALLY struggle to staff a commuter rail operation which (I believe) has even higher training requirements for staff. 

Edited March 26, 2023 by kermit