CATS Long Term Transit Plan - Silver, Red Lines

[elrodvt]

I didn't look up their national rank and that's surprising to me. You have to be careful with those numbers though because there are a lot of details which can make the tax more or less while having the same rate.

I can tell you our taxes nearly doubled moving here from CO and that's for a place here which was less expensive.

But, the biggest issue is NC does little to nothing to make the tax less regressive. People on lower fixed incomes should be able to stay in their homes. By using property tax for more we drive up the rates and force them out. It's a great gentrification tool.

I believe there should be a strong income component to determine the ability to pay higher taxes.

[videtur quam contuor]

North Carolina allows "homestead exclusions" for those age 65+ and with income limits. My mother in law qualified when she was alive. 25% or 50% depending on income. Must own the home in their name, or at least one of the owners must qualify.

[elrodvt]

1 hour ago, tarhoosier said:

North Carolina allows "homestead exclusions" for those age 65+ and with income limits. My mother in law qualified when she was alive. 25% or 50% depending on income. Must own the home in their name, or at least one of the owners must qualify.

The income limit is basically poverty right?

Edit: looked it up. 31.5k is the income limit. And that's for a pretty small discount of I believe 25k off the property value. If that's your income seriously doubt you can pay 75,,% of the tax on a home that's inflated to let's say 500k. Well, there's always cat food right?

I know I've taken us off track and I'll stop now. My position is that relying on home inflation to tax people more regardless of their income is a terrible idea.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2023 by elrodvt

[videtur quam contuor]

https://www.mecknc.gov/AssessorsOffice/Pages/Tax-Exclusions-Deferrals.aspx#:~:text=Qualifying owners must apply with,% (whichever is greater).

33,800 to reduce taxes and 50,700 to defer taxes until property is sold or other qualifying circumstance. Also there is disabled veteran, brownfield, historic property.

My mother in law bought her home in Sedgefield with proceeds from her husband's death benefit when she had two children age 4 and 8, and lived there with her limited income, with some assistance from family members until she was 90. This was a meaningful benefit for her for many years as her retirement income was well below this limit. This is the type of owner this is meant to benefit.

[Windsurfer]

5 hours ago, RANYC said:

Main thing driving increases in valuation is the city's desirability.  That desirability isn't the result of a single lot, but rather collective investments in the city's attractiveness and quality of life.  Totally reasonable for the city/county to take a cut of the valuation increase that accrues to property owners.

"Desirability".  I'd say taxes are a huge part of that.  Talking with over two dozen folks from Portland recently who are contemplating moving to the Washington side of the river, increases in local taxes in Portland is the #1 reason for their planing to move.  They can actually live with the houseless,  but the taxes are hurting.

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, Windsurfer said:

I'd say taxes are a huge part of that. 

• Not sure if your survey includes 2-dozen households or individuals, but do you think your sample is representative enough to draw conclusions on policy?
• As a state, Oregon property tax rates tend to be cheaper than Washington's.  Are your friends just leaving the city for something suburban or more rural?
• Every community must establish its capacity for taxation.  Unclear what that is in Charlotte.  The city should put a  property tax rate increase up for a vote to ascertain whether that capacity is exhausted.

[elrodvt]

This is an interesting read regarding property taxes funding transit:

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2019/12/06/why-local-governments-should-be-wary-of-funding-public-transport-by-taxing-the-beneficiaries-of-new-infrastructure/

I didn't cherry pick it. There were several based on the search "is property tax a good transit funding source".

 

Also,

4 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

https://www.mecknc.gov/AssessorsOffice/Pages/Tax-Exclusions-Deferrals.aspx#:~:text=Qualifying owners must apply with,% (whichever is greater).

33,800 to reduce taxes and 50,700 to defer taxes until property is sold or other qualifying circumstance. Also there is disabled veteran, brownfield, historic property.

My mother in law bought her home in Sedgefield with proceeds from her husband's death benefit when she had two children age 4 and 8, and lived there with her limited income, with some assistance from family members until she was 90. This was a meaningful benefit for her for many years as her retirement income was well below this limit. This is the type of owner this is meant to benefit.

I don't mean to say it's useless. I put it in the "better than nothing"  bucket. As with many (most?) assistance programs it's just way too miserly and doesn't keep up with inflation. I didn't realize the deferral option existed. Thanks for that. 

Edited January 24, 2023 by elrodvt

[RANYC]

11 hours ago, elrodvt said:

This is an interesting read regarding property taxes funding transit:

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/usappblog/2019/12/06/why-local-governments-should-be-wary-of-funding-public-transport-by-taxing-the-beneficiaries-of-new-infrastructure/

I didn't cherry pick it. There were several based on the search "is property tax a good transit funding source".

 

Also,

I don't mean to say it's useless. I put it in the "better than nothing"  bucket. As with many (most?) assistance programs it's just way too miserly and doesn't keep up with inflation. I didn't realize the deferral option existed. Thanks for that. 

Thanks for sharing.  I'll take a look.  I hope the author addresses up-zoning as part of transit implementation to achieve full value capture.  Transit and property tax increases without up-zoning does cap a municipality at the proverbial knees.

[Windsurfer]

22 hours ago, RANYC said:

• Not sure if your survey includes 2-dozen households or individuals, but do you think your sample is representative enough to draw conclusions on policy?
• As a state, Oregon property tax rates tend to be cheaper than Washington's.  Are your friends just leaving the city for something suburban or more rural?
• Every community must establish its capacity for taxation.  Unclear what that is in Charlotte.  The city should put a  property tax rate increase up for a vote to ascertain whether that capacity is exhausted.

My survey definitely was not scientific.. As I retired last year, I'm spending a lot of time talking to everyone I ride with on the chairlift up on Mt. Hood.  These folks are all over the place as far as living standards. From ski bums and students (not necessarily the same ) to retired millionaires.  We also have many friends in Portland, as well in the country where we now live.

As far as cheaper than Washington.....not if you're earning income. No way.  Oregon's personal income tax here is about 10%. Washington's, zilch.   Add several more pecentage points for Multnomah Co..  I made a terrible mistake buying in Oregon last year only to finally close on my business down there. Even NC's  income tax is only around 5%.

I'd argue Portland has reached its capacity for taxation. Oregon is now losing population, and Portland's housing boom is faltering. Hard to go back on taxes once you go too far in finding that equilibrium.

Edited January 24, 2023 by Windsurfer
grammar

[JRCLT]

Timmy needs to stop interjecting in Charlottes affairs with transit saying Charlotte needs to focus on building roads than to “change habits” or whatever he thinks driving is. I’m asking myself where the h*ll Charlotte is going to build more roads?! Up in the sky?? Is he going to cough up all the money to build/maintain these roads to accommodate future and current traffic and the land?? At this point I would have rather him have said, “I don’t like Charlotte, who cares about their transportation needs.” Than Charlotte just needs to build more roads… I mean on what premise? More traffic does not automatically mean that more roads are needed…we would run out of space in no time. Providing transit is an option and this wouldn’t just find transit it would fund pedestrian and bike infrastructure and greenways! More and more options than the car. The more transit there is the less traffic there is on our roads…I don’t understand why the general public fails to see this logic even when their told straight to their face. The only people who win is every industry attached to the vehicle sphere of influence and people lose collectively. (Preaching to the Choir here so to speak but it’s frustrating that he just said to just build more roads like it’s a golden solution!)

[15895]

1 hour ago, JeanClt said:

Timmy needs to stop interjecting in Charlottes affairs with transit saying Charlotte needs to focus on building roads than to “change habits” or whatever he thinks driving is. I’m asking myself where the h*ll Charlotte is going to build more roads?! Up in the sky?? Is he going to cough up all the money to build/maintain these roads to accommodate future and current traffic and the land?? At this point I would have rather him have said, “I don’t like Charlotte, who cares about their transportation needs.” Than Charlotte just needs to build more roads… I mean on what premise? More traffic does not automatically mean that more roads are needed…we would run out of space in no time. Providing transit is an option and this wouldn’t just find transit it would fund pedestrian and bike infrastructure and greenways! More and more options than the car. The more transit there is the less traffic there is on our roads…I don’t understand why the general public fails to see this logic even when their told straight to their face. The only people who win is every industry attached to the vehicle sphere of influence and people lose collectively. (Preaching to the Choir here so to speak but it’s frustrating that he just said to just build more roads like it’s a golden solution!)

I would imagine he would point to Gaston, Cleveland, Lincoln, etc counties as having plenty of space? Urban Sprawl probably only enriches his allies? 

I don’t foresee Charlotte ever becoming more dense than Houston, Dallas or Atlanta on its current track. Dallas is. Whopping 7M+ metro and its density is only 3,400 people per Sq. Mile. 

The future of Charlotte’s urban growth is Atlanta with substantially less mass transit. I’m not sure SouthEnd/Uptown could match Midtown/Downtown ATL without substantial infrastructure upgrades (whether 277 & 77 widening, development creeping towards 77 in SouthEnd, upgrades in the roads into and through SouthEnd or mass transit which let’s face it - ain’t happening in a meaningful way). 

Atlanta has MARTA and 85 is a Monster of a highway along midtown/downtown. I mention Atlanta because I’ve seen plenty of Charlotte posters over time say they don’t want to be Atlanta (in terms of urban sprawl)  but I’m not sure Charlotte’s even on the path to have the infrastructure to have a core as dense as Atlanta?

What is other peoples thought on that? Anyone from Atlanta who is familiar with Atlanta when its metro size was similar to Charlotte’s current? The below has to be Charlotte’s future if  not more lanes needed and Massive 277 upgrades and growth moving towards 77. No?

 

[RANYC]

13 hours ago, JeanClt said:

Timmy needs to stop interjecting in Charlottes affairs with transit saying Charlotte needs to focus on building roads than to “change habits” or whatever he thinks driving is. I’m asking myself where the h*ll Charlotte is going to build more roads?! Up in the sky?? Is he going to cough up all the money to build/maintain these roads to accommodate future and current traffic and the land?? At this point I would have rather him have said, “I don’t like Charlotte, who cares about their transportation needs.” Than Charlotte just needs to build more roads… I mean on what premise? More traffic does not automatically mean that more roads are needed…we would run out of space in no time. Providing transit is an option and this wouldn’t just find transit it would fund pedestrian and bike infrastructure and greenways! More and more options than the car. The more transit there is the less traffic there is on our roads…I don’t understand why the general public fails to see this logic even when their told straight to their face. The only people who win is every industry attached to the vehicle sphere of influence and people lose collectively. (Preaching to the Choir here so to speak but it’s frustrating that he just said to just build more roads like it’s a golden solution!)

Let’s just be clear.  Timmy is merely parroting talking points received from the likes of Tariq Bokhari.  It’s quite clear to me that Tariq knows he can sabotage local initiatives through a cozy relationship with the state.  Last I heard, lyles and others are now working with bokhari to re-draft the transit plan with an increased focus on roads, and so bokhari notches a win.

Edited January 25, 2023 by RANYC

[RANYC]

12 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I would imagine he would point to Gaston, Cleveland, Lincoln, etc counties as having plenty of space? Urban Sprawl probably only enriches his allies? 

I don’t foresee Charlotte ever becoming more dense than Houston, Dallas or Atlanta on its current track. Dallas is. Whopping 7M+ metro and its density is only 3,400 people per Sq. Mile. 

The future of Charlotte’s urban growth is Atlanta with substantially less mass transit. I’m not sure SouthEnd/Uptown could match Midtown/Downtown ATL without substantial infrastructure upgrades (whether 277 & 77 widening, development creeping towards 77 in SouthEnd, upgrades in the roads into and through SouthEnd or mass transit which let’s face it - ain’t happening in a meaningful way). 

Atlanta has MARTA and 85 is a Monster of a highway along midtown/downtown. I mention Atlanta because I’ve seen plenty of Charlotte posters over time say they don’t want to be Atlanta (in terms of urban sprawl)  but I’m not sure Charlotte’s even on the path to have the infrastructure to have a core as dense as Atlanta?

What is other peoples thought on that? Anyone from Atlanta who is familiar with Atlanta when its metro size was similar to Charlotte’s current? The below has to be Charlotte’s future if  not more lanes needed and Massive 277 upgrades and growth moving towards 77. No?

 

City of Atlanta area is only 136 square miles while Charlotte’s is >300.  Would be interesting to carve out 136 square miles of the center of Charlotte and measure its density and density trend over the past 5 years versus the same metrics for the city of Atlanta.  I speculate one would find our densification trend to be quite robust.  I also believe the UDO, yet to take effect, will actually encourage significant densification of in-town neighborhoods (the vast tracts of mid-century ranch houses north, west, and south of uptown, in the coming 10 years.

I’ve been to Atlanta a few times and don’t like it at all, excepting some historical landmarks.  I’d personally take a lot less growth to avoid any semblance of it here in Charlotte.

Edited January 25, 2023 by RANYC

[15895]

1 hour ago, RANYC said:

City of Atlanta area is only 136 square miles while Charlotte’s is >300.  Would be interesting to carve out 136 square miles of the center of Charlotte and measure its density and density trend over the past 5 years versus the same metrics for the city of Atlanta.  I speculate one would find our densification trend to be quite robust.  I also believe the UDO, yet to take effect, will actually encourage significant densification of in-town neighborhoods (the vast tracts of mid-century ranch houses north, west, and south of uptown, in the coming 10 years.

I’ve been to Atlanta a few times and don’t like it at all, excepting some historical landmarks.  I’d personally take a lot less growth to avoid any semblance of it here in Charlotte.

That’s sort of the comments about Atlanta I was referring to. I interpret these comments to mean that people don’t want Charlotte to sprawl like Atlanta and prefer it to be more dense. Is that what people mean with the avoiding being like Atlanta? 

I would guess pound for pound, if Charlotte were to shrink to Atlanta’s size, Atlanta would be significantly more intense in density and urbanity than Charlotte - inclusive of say how it’s been developing compared to Atlanta for the last 2 or so decades. I would say Atlanta’s been killing it in density for the inner core Vs. Charlotte. 

I still think Charlotte won’t develop as densely as Atlanta without some very large scale upgrades (lane widenings) of Independence, 77 & 277, development moving towards I-77 and possibly expanding Tryon St. 

South Park neither will come anywhere near as dense as Buckhead without Tyvola being a near freeway or massive Blvd. 

Of course a lot of that could be avoided with mass transit but as we’ve seen in this thread, it’s not going to happen. Charlotte won’t even be lucky to build a mass transit to even be 50% of MARTA rail until at least like 2060 (because our long term plans is for low capacity light rail Vs. MARTA). To annoyingly use DC as an example, 395 is underground when it goes north, 295 is 3 lanes each direction, highway 29 is actually slow and urban, and the last couple miles of highway 50 & highway 1 actually are fast. There’s a couple other ares with a mile or two of road that feels like highway but. The power of investing in mass transit. -.-“ I only mention that because it doesn’t have to be giant highways. Surely all the nimby’s and anti-transit folk would want a future without highways and interstates as large as Atlanta. 

 

I think. Charlotte’s going to either be not as dense as Atlanta intown or we’re going to be shocked over the coming decades as Charlotte develops massive massive highways that we’ll look at photos of 77 & think how crazy tiny it was in 2022… That’s not the future I want for Charlotte, but it’s the future and I guess we have to advocate for things knowing the future is going to be highways and massive and fast blvds and advocate for things that’ll still make the city better. 

But. I don’t know. I’m feeling pessimistic about mass transit in Charlotte. I’m hopeful for silver line and look forward to little urban villages that develops around the stations but that’s at least a decade out and I don’t think will change the needle of our urbanity. Ironically, really only highway expansion is our hope for continued urbanity in Charlotte (yea, I know that sounds contradictory but.) 

[jthomas]

16 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

That’s sort of the comments about Atlanta I was referring to. I interpret these comments to mean that people don’t want Charlotte to sprawl like Atlanta and prefer it to be more dense. Is that what people mean with the avoiding being like Atlanta? 

I won't speak for others, but for me the worst of Atlanta's sins is the mind-boggling scale of the low-density built-up area. Doing a quick measure on Google Earth, Atlanta's contiguous built-up area stretches for roughly 55 miles on the I-20 axis, 65 miles on the I-75 axis, and 80 (!) miles on the I-85 axis. In Charlotte terms, that would be Monroe to Lincolnton, Rock Hill to Statesville, and Gaffney to Salisbury, with all points in between completely covered by single-family subdivisions, strip malls, and 6-lane stroads. It truly does not matter how dense midtown ATL is or becomes. The region as a whole has gobbled up and destroyed an unfathomable amount of natural habitat, and it continues to expand outward at a far greater rate than whatever pockets of urbanity happen to spring up along the Beltline.

I have many relatives who live in metro Atlanta. I hate visiting - it is soul-sucking. Hands-down the worst city I have ever visited, with almost no redeeming features to offset the numbing monotony of auto-centric suburbia. Nothing short of the second coming of General Sherman could save it. Charlotte today is probably where Atlanta was 30-40 years ago. Charlotte must make bold, intentional choices to go down a different path, because the institutionalized sprawl-making machine will continue to do what it does if the status quo remains.

[kermit]

47 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I still think Charlotte won’t develop as densely as Atlanta without some very large scale upgrades (lane widenings) of Independence, 77 & 277, development moving towards I-77 and possibly expanding Tryon St.

Honest question. Could we even build the parking necessary to increase uptown employment at this scale? I kinda doubt it. Would a workforce that was really happy with remote work during the pandemic even tolerate Atlanta-scale congestion for near-daily commutes to an office? I kinda doubt it.

The post-pandemic workpalce trends I see suggest that uptown's future hinge on its ability to increase residential and retail activity. If it remains a single-use office district, I think its future is no better than that of a run of the mill suburban office park. No one wants to go to an office today that offers so few options for lunch, breaks outside or after work debauchery.  That is why Southend and NoDa office is exploding (and, if that growth continues, has the potential to revitalize Uptown).

Highway widening is just going to choke any diversification of Uptown off before it gets started.

16 minutes ago, jthomas said:

I won't speak for others, but for me the worst of Atlanta's sins is the mind-boggling scale of the low-density built-up area. Doing a quick measure on Google Earth, Atlanta's contiguous built-up area stretches for roughly 55 miles on the I-20 axis, 65 miles on the I-75 axis, and 80 (!) miles on the I-85 axis. In Charlotte terms, that would be Monroe to Lincolnton, Rock Hill to Statesville, and Gaffney to Salisbury, with all points in between completely covered by single-family subdivisions, strip malls, and 6-lane stroads. It truly does not matter how dense midtown ATL is or becomes. The region as a whole has gobbled up and destroyed an unfathomable amount of natural habitat, and it continues to expand outward at a far greater rate than whatever pockets of urbanity happen to spring up along the Beltline.

This is a great comparison. The city of Atlanta has been doing some really remarkable urban improvements over the past decade (provided you have enough money to still live there). Its outside of the city itself that is so awful, and (for me) lacks any kind of redeeming value (other than Beauford Highway food). The problem with this dichotomy is that it is SOOOOO hard to get to the city of Atlanta that once I arrive, I am miserable. Its been strangled by its suburbs.

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by kermit

[CLT2014]

Charlotte is on a similar path as Atlanta....  For every apartment complex being built near Uptown, there is a family of four buying a 3,000 square foot house out in Indian Land in a massive clear cut subdivision with 800 homes. We haven't contained enough of the growth within Mecklenburg County to prevent us as a metro area from sprawling too far. Really the only thing containing the growth in Meck is traffic is bad enough to keep some people from moving further out for a cheaper / bigger house. 

There is really no plan right now where the areas below (York and Lancaster County) are going to be anything but traffic choked sprawl as these new home developments spring up along country roads. THIS is a huge amount of the growth in metro-Charlotte. This is our path to being Atlanta. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by CLT2014

[kermit]

11 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

There is really no plan right now where the areas below (York and Lancaster County) are going to be anything but traffic choked sprawl as these new home developments spring up along country roads. THIS is a huge amount of the growth in metro-Charlotte. This is our path to being Atlanta.

I agree. But this raises the question: why bother to expand 77 in the first place. Atlanta shows us there is no way to keep up with that growth, so why bother spending any money to try, and fail, to accommodate it?

I am willing to bet that population growth in York and Lancaster is a significant fiscal drain on Charlotte (even without road expansion). Lets Build a Wall!

Edited January 25, 2023 by kermit

[CLT2014]

10 minutes ago, kermit said:

I agree. But this raises the question: why bother to expand 77 in the first place. Atlanta shows us there is no way to keep up with that growth, so why bother spending any money to try, and fail, to accommodate it?

I am willing to bet that population growth in York and Lancaster is a significant fiscal drain on Charlotte (even without road expansion).

I agree. Highway expansion will just encourage people to think they can live further out, until the sprawl catches up and that road just ends up clogged as well. Then the person that bought in a sprawling development will complain about the sprawling development getting built across the street adding traffic, it will get approved by the county, and then those new residents will complain how the next sprawling development is adding to traffic, it will get approved, et.... round and round we go chopping trees down. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by CLT2014

[JerseyBoy]

54 minutes ago, jthomas said:

I won't speak for others, but for me the worst of Atlanta's sins is the mind-boggling scale of the low-density built-up area. Doing a quick measure on Google Earth, Atlanta's contiguous built-up area stretches for roughly 55 miles on the I-20 axis, 65 miles on the I-75 axis, and 80 (!) miles on the I-85 axis. In Charlotte terms, that would be Monroe to Lincolnton, Rock Hill to Statesville, and Gaffney to Salisbury, with all points in between completely covered by single-family subdivisions, strip malls, and 6-lane stroads. It truly does not matter how dense midtown ATL is or becomes. The region as a whole has gobbled up and destroyed an unfathomable amount of natural habitat, and it continues to expand outward at a far greater rate than whatever pockets of urbanity happen to spring up along the Beltline.

I have many relatives who live in metro Atlanta. I hate visiting - it is soul-sucking. Hands-down the worst city I have ever visited, with almost no redeeming features to offset the numbing monotony of auto-centric suburbia. Nothing short of the second coming of General Sherman could save it. Charlotte today is probably where Atlanta was 30-40 years ago. Charlotte must make bold, intentional choices to go down a different path, because the institutionalized sprawl-making machine will continue to do what it does if the status quo remains.

Everyone's entitled to their opinions about an area, as we all have differing experiences or expectations of what a city should be.  But "no redeeming features" and "soul-sucking?" Really?

I lived in Atlanta from 2016 to late 2019. While it definitely got old having to criss-cross town via car and deal with 30+ minute traffic jams just to attend an event or check out a cool restaurant, the city is fortunate to have a dense tree canopy; some of the most kind, pleasant residents around; and, I think, the nation's best food scene after NY and LA. Not to mention all of the amazing global contributions the city and its denizens have made to human rights, the arts and business over the decades. I wasn't in the right place in life to fully appreciate Atlanta when I lived there, but now, I'm proud to say I once called it home.

Slogging through the 'burbs of northern Fulton, Cherokee or Gwinnett Counties isn't fun -- I'll give you that! But there are some really awesome people -- and experiences -- to be had in all of those locales if you're willing to dig a little, venture off the beaten path or hop out of your car.

[kermit]

4 minutes ago, JerseyBoy said:

 the nation's best food scene after NY and LA.

Agree!

Edited January 25, 2023 by kermit

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

1 hour ago, JerseyBoy said:

Everyone's entitled to their opinions about an area, as we all have differing experiences or expectations of what a city should be.  But "no redeeming features" and "soul-sucking?" Really?

I lived in Atlanta from 2016 to late 2019. While it definitely got old having to criss-cross town via car and deal with 30+ minute traffic jams just to attend an event or check out a cool restaurant, the city is fortunate to have a dense tree canopy; some of the most kind, pleasant residents around; and, I think, the nation's best food scene after NY and LA. Not to mention all of the amazing global contributions the city and its denizens have made to human rights, the arts and business over the decades. I wasn't in the right place in life to fully appreciate Atlanta when I lived there, but now, I'm proud to say I once called it home.

Slogging through the 'burbs of northern Fulton, Cherokee or Gwinnett Counties isn't fun -- I'll give you that! But there are some really awesome people -- and experiences -- to be had in all of those locales if you're willing to dig a little, venture off the beaten path or hop out of your car.

Atlanta's inter city neighborhoods have density and old historic areas that no one here seems to note. The beltline in Atlanta makes South End look tiny. Midtown is densifying at a rate that is almost unmatched nationwide. While Atlanta sprawls, it still maintains landscaping that Texas cities will never have. Marta has a decent foothold, and development is finally starting to focus on Marta routes, plus a subway into the domestic airport terminal is as good as any city in the country. While it sprawls, it maintains a VERY affordable real estate market with an extremely diverse make up of job markets. 

Georgia is staking its future growth on EVs and will likely be a national leader very soon. 

Edited January 25, 2023 by CarolinaDaydreamin

[15895]

The responses are really interesting perspectives & discussion! 

The only other thing I will pose regarding Atlanta is does Charlotte not appear as sprawly as a metropolitan area  (despite the Atlanta core being much larger and denser than CLT) simply because ATL has like 3 million+ more people than Charlotte?  That’s why I was wondering if anyone remembers how Atlanta was in the late 1980’s versus 2023 Charlotte? I think MARTA rail started in the late 70’s. Most of the Urbanity was downtown. 

I just wonder how much of Atlanta seeming more sprawl is simply because it’s more than double in size.

 

 

There was a time when I think several posters and myself didn’t want SouthEnd to grow tall before uptown and midtown filled out because they didn’t want to be like Atlanta and kept pointing out that uptown was filling out. Now, maybe within a couple years, SouthEnd will have multiple towers U/C and uptown could very well just have 1 (The hotel above Carolina Theatre)

I think this would’ve happened even without Covid. It was already going there. But I think uptown could’ve squeaked out some more office towers in addition and a little more but I think it would start to become a downtown/midtown scenario. 
 

https://atlanta.curbed.com/2020/2/7/21127120/atlanta-midtown-population-growth-apartment-home-construction

I still think Charlotte is in slow motion becoming a slightly more sprawling and slightly less dense version of Atlanta even though it doesn’t seem as apparent yet (but will as Ballantyne & Concord, etc continue to grow)

 

(FYI to relate it to the thread. If we don’t get serious with mass transit… our growth will either start to have no choice but to sprawl or highway expansions maybe and Kermit and a few others already stated why that’s not a great formula, etc and I agree with that but. I digress. And I only mention it *because* Tim Moore keeps being openly pro highway and it’s like. Is that the future he is fighting for? Giant highways (assuming Charlotte one day hits 6 million) is what Tim Moore thinks will make the region more desirable? 

Edited January 25, 2023 by AirNostrumMAD

[JRCLT]

Let’s just be clear.  Timmy is merely parroting talking points received from the likes of Tariq Bokhari.  It’s quite clear to me that Tariq knows he can sabotage local initiatives through a cozy relationship with the state.  Last I heard, lyles and others are now working with bokhari to re-draft the transit plan with an increased focus on roads, and so bokhari notches a win.

Roads are important but if we have them gridlocking every rush hour and then even off hours…how does that fix the problem? These people are talking about a transportation system and they don’t even understand how the system works. Are they consulting a traffic engineer/analyst because building roads isn’t just as easy as plopping it down and saying “yeah, people will use it!” Roads I don’t not mind being part of the plan but definitely should not be the focus when they have been the focus for more or less a century.

[RANYC]

1 minute ago, JeanClt said:

Roads are important but if we have them gridlocking every rush hour and then even off hours…how does that fix the problem? These people are talking about a transportation system and they don’t even understand how the system works. Are they consulting a traffic engineer/analyst because building roads isn’t just as easy as plopping it down and saying “yeah, people will use it!” Roads I don’t not mind being part of the plan but definitely should not be the focus when they have been the focus for more or less a century.

Well, I don’t really know what’s happening in the discussions with Bokhari.  The silver line is the majority of the transit plan.  Bokhari might merely want less of a concentration of resources on a single line.  Maybe we end up with smaller light rail ambitions.  Maybe there’s a bigger focus on roads, but perhaps it’s funding smarter or more complete road designs.  With Bokhari, who knows, maybe it’s funding for on-demand public transit or for last-mile coverage.  No idea.