NC Civil Rights

[The Force Sleeps]

3 hours ago, kermit said:

Which is exactly my point. When you have no political outlets for your rage you have no choice but resort to violence.

How exactly does violence (even as a last resort) fix this situation?

This is a serious request Kermit: Explain to us in specific terms how last night's violence improved the situation. What is the outcome the black community desires and how did destroying property and acting violently serve to advance toward that outcome?

I don't care if peaceful protests haven't worked. I'm struggling to see how violence helps.

(And I don't want generalizations - Specifically, how do violent protests advance the cause of the black community IN CHARLOTTE?)

[tozmervo]

6 minutes ago, ah59396 said:

And quite frankly, isn't American history littered with examples of violence and rioting as a means of proving a point?

Sometimes the point was on the "wrong side of history," but boy howdy this isn't an isolated incident. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_civil_unrest_in_the_United_States

[kermit]

24 minutes ago, The Force Sleeps said:

How exactly does violence (even as a last resort) fix this situation?

This is a serious request Kermit: Explain to us in specific terms how last night's violence improved the situation. What is the outcome the black community desires and how did destroying property and acting violently serve to advance toward that outcome?

I don't care if peaceful protests haven't worked. I'm struggling to see how violence helps.

We, and many other people, are now discussing the root issues of the violence. The first step in finding solutions.

without the riots we would all still be talking about where people can pee.

This is not to say I think anything has been fixed or improved as a result of the riots -- they are an emotional outlet for people who feel voiceless.

Edit: and here is a more eloquent, long-form, accounting of how riots have sparked social change: http://www.vox.com/2015/4/30/8518681/protests-riots-work?utm_campaign=vox.social&utm_medium=social&utm_content=voxdotcom&utm_source=twitter

 

[CLT2014]

The mayor's press conference did not encourage me that tonight will be more peaceful.... her solution was to have the faith leaders get it to stop. I'm sorry Mayor Roberts, but the agitators that break into stores, beat up people walking through Uptown, and steal stuff are probably not the protesters that go to church.... 

[nonillogical]

28 minutes ago, RaleighHeelsfan said:

What cause is that? A innocent black cop who shot in self defense?

Did you read any of my post at all? The still-valid cause I spoke of spans decades of shootings and police misconduct, which I alluded to, and I also directly addressed the shooting that sparked these riots as possibly justified, and at least a very grey area unlike some of the others. I am not debating the illogicality of this particular shooting spawning these kind of riots, its obvious to us all. Please stop posting emotionally, we're trying to have a rational discussion here.

[RaleighHeelsfan]

See, that's the difference between you and I. I don't see a problem with police shootings. In nearly EVERYONE of these cases, the perp had a gun or totally ignored the officers warnings. Lets not even talk about the number of times they have been arrested.

Secondly, BLM...pretty much all of them are racist and blaming white people. Although many of these police were not even white!!!

One person last night yelled "all white people are devils" Ok dumbo...the cop was black! ROTFL...

Do I think there are some people out there protesting because they believe they have been done wrong and want change? Sure. But all liberals can do is talk about those few.

Lets talk about the majority of people that were involved last night. What about them? They don't care about anything but themselves. They are racist and hate white people. Probably the same ones who do black on black crime. They want a lawless society.

 

34 minutes ago, nonillogical said:

Did you read any of my post at all? The still-valid cause I spoke of spans decades of shootings and police misconduct, which I alluded to, and I also directly addressed the shooting that sparked these riots as possibly justified, and at least a very grey area unlike some of the others. I am not debating the illogicality of this particular shooting spawning these kind of riots, its obvious to us all. Please stop posting emotionally, we're trying to have a rational discussion here.

 

[SgtCampsalot]

I spent all of last night at the townhome community where Keith Scott was killed. Firstly, I lived there and around there for YEARS while going to UNCC. That area is no different than Anywhereville, USA. It's just all insane...

There is a permanent vigil right now at his home, and people are voicing their frustrations together. Lots of internal disagreements, but really nobody knows what the answer is. But, every one of Keith Scott's neighbors said the exact same thing about the rioters: "They're making it harder for all of us."

Bottom line: if anyone can come show solidarity and bear witness, and/or do anything to help the Scott family (whether donations, giving rides, or whatever) please come to The Village at College Downs on Old Concord Rd and show your respects. Everyone there would appreciate it, and maybe we can make some small efforts to help the family.

[nonillogical]

1 minute ago, RaleighHeelsfan said:

See, that's the difference between you and I. I don't see a problem with police shootings. In nearly EVERYONE of these cases, the perp had a gun or totally ignored the officers warnings. Lets not even talk about the number of times they have been arrested.

Secondly, BLM...pretty much all of them are racist and blaming white people. Although many of these police were not even white!!!

One person last night yelled "all white people are devils" Ok dumbo...the cop was black! ROTFL...

Nearly every one? Just for starters, how about the other recent cases I mentioned? Castille, Rice, Crutcher? Those are just the most egregious of the last 2 years off the top of my head, and pretty hard to defend no matter how you slice it. I could make the list longer if you'd like. 

I do not believe that having a gun or ignoring officers warning are automatic grounds for execution (nevermind past arrests, I can't believe you'd even imply that that is grounds for justifying a bullet). It depends on the circumstances, but simply having a gun should not give the officers blanket immunity in the situation, and not even try to de-escalate. Its not hard to find examples of white (and sure, some black) armed and violent criminals taken down non-lethally with sensible tactics. The military has strict rules of engagement and the use of deadly force is seen as a last resort even in war torn areas. The police seem to have incredibly lax rules of engagement and inconsistent methods of dealing with suspected threats.

As for ALL OF BLM being racist and blaming white people, are you sure about that? Do you have data? Are you sure you're not just cherry-picking examples of obvious racists to craft the narrative you want? 

Seriously, do you want to try to understand the sociological factors at play here, or would you rather just have a race war?

[CarolinaCrown]

14 minutes ago, RaleighHeelsfan said:

See, that's the difference between you and I. I don't see a problem with police shootings. In nearly EVERYONE of these cases, the perp had a gun or totally ignored the officers warnings. Lets not even talk about the number of times they have been arrested.

Secondly, BLM...pretty much all of them are racist and blaming white people. Although many of these police were not even white!!!

One person last night yelled "all white people are devils" Ok dumbo...the cop was black! ROTFL...

Do I think there are some people out there protesting because they believe they have been done wrong and want change? Sure. But all liberals can do is talk about those few.

Lets talk about the majority of people that were involved last night. What about them? They don't care about anything but themselves. They are racist and hate white people. Probably the same ones who do black on black crime. They want a lawless society.

 

 

Yes let's talk about the majority of people involved last night. You keep pointing out the minority of people who were the " loudest". The protest started around 5 did you see them on the police headquarters stairs? They shook hands with each other and started an open conversation. Your continued ignorance to the roots of the problem is just as useful as rioting.  

[cltbwimob]

1 hour ago, ah59396 said:

@kermit is not advocating for violence.  The point they are trying to make is when certain people feel like they've got nothing left to lose, they are going to lash out...violently.  It isn't a justification for violence, and I've yet to see how Kermit is validating the violence in any of their posts.  No one supports what occurred last night, it was awful.  The violence wasn't warranted, it wasn't helpful to the cause of those that were there peacefully protesting and it doesn't help anything.

 

1 hour ago, tozmervo said:

You can understand the source of the violence without condoning it. 

I was referring to a specific line Kermit had used in the Perception of Charlotte thread...it said that given what occurred [Tuesday] night that he didn't see the response as innappropriate.  That kind of language, in my opinion, represents tacit approval for the violent protests that occurred.  However it appears that he changed the language of his post to say that the action of the protestors was not inappropriate which I presume was meant to clarify that he thought what the peaceful protestors did was not inappropriate.  If that's the case then I apologize to Kermit for misconstruing what he was trying to say.  However when I originally read it shortly after he wrote it when the clarifying language was not in place.

Still we can talk in generalities about BLM and the unjust killing of unarmed black men by cops who have perhaps latent racists tendencies and how that may incite people to violence because they feel marginalized and disenfranchised by society and policing tactics all we want.  But the generalities don't look to pertain to Charlotte's case  in which an armed man was shot by a black police officer.  So why does Charlotte need to suffer? Since it can't be the case that this action was motivated by race, and it's likely that the action was taken for self defense, then how can anyone empathize with the perpetrators here? My guess is that the police officer is completely innocent of wrongdoing and that these riots are motivated not by marginalization but by opportunism.  And if you think that somehow this opportunism benefits us as a city or society at large because we are now discussing the issue well...

[kermit]

You are welcome to parse my language all you want but I never intended to condone or encourage violence. 

[ES Charlotte]

3 hours ago, NYCLT said:

In 2015, officers killed 662 whites and Hispanics, and 258 blacks. Blacks made up 26% of all police shootings while representing 13% of the population.

However, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, blacks were charged with 62% of all robberies, 57% of murders and 45% of assaults in the 75 largest U.S. counties in 2009, though they made up roughly 15% of the population there.

Did anyone ever think that representing 3-5 times more violent crime in these categories per capita has anything to do with double the police shootings per capita?

This is my opinion, but I'm willing to bet that something like 90% of police shootings happen on calls for robbery, homicide and assault. Increased crime demands increased police presence and you're 3-5 times more likely to get a call to a violent crime with this group. The higher number of interactions in dangerous situations, called to a violent crime, means a higher likelihood of shootings, justifiable or not. In order to say there is a systemic problem, you can't look at 1-2 videos every few months - they are shocking but do not prove a systemic problem.

For those of you who support BLM, what exactly from a policy standpoint do you want to see happen? I'm just curious because it seems like they're always compounding the problem instead of trying to solve it

Nobody wanted to respond to this one huh?

[nonillogical]

29 minutes ago, ES Charlotte said:

For those of you who support BLM, what exactly from a policy standpoint do you want to see happen? I'm just curious because it seems like they're always compounding the problem instead of trying to solve it

Nobody wanted to respond to this one huh?

I want to see rigorous and clearly-defined rules of engagement established for police officers responding to perceived threats, and see those who break them held accountable with the same scrutiny that would be applied to any other citizen at any other job or in any court. I want to see increased de-escalation training. I want to see increased training for officers in dealing with the handicapped/disabled. As for enforcement, officers with an unjustified or excessive altercation should be taken off the street for a time, and after a number of strikes they should be fired. Any officer caught manipulating evidence or otherwise assisting a guilty officer should be charged. I believe in innocent until proven guilty so I don't have a big problem with some form of paid leave until trial, but it seems like an accused officer should still be booked and processed, again with the same scrutiny another citizen would have. I admit I don't know the ins and outs of the legal system enough to know the feasibility of this. 

I just want to see some consequences when these things happen. Regardless of any crime statistics and blind to race, this should be agreeable. Does anyone really expect a cop involved in a shooting to ever be charged with manslaughter, no matter how damning the evidence is and no matter who the victim is? Different groups of people feel different levels of threat at that reality, but that sense that police are above the law, and not necessarily there to protect and serve, is at the root of this issue, and it is relatively common-sense measures that could fix that.

*disclaimer again that I am not talking about the particulars of this shooting, I am speaking in a general sense about the issue at large.

[ES Charlotte]

^ Blind to race... there's something we can agree on albeit we'll never be 100% free of incidents. I also believe good cops will make poor decisions with good intent. It's the nature of the beast. 

I believe we have a systemic education issue in this country that politicians exploit rather then eradicate. Then we have the media who jumps on the exploiting bandwagon. It's sad and unfortunate. 

[jednc]

10 hours ago, kermit said:

How would you respond if you saw your friends, neighbors and relatives being killed by the government and you were powerless to intervene?.

 

If I had any friends or neighbors who approached the police with a gun and did not drop that gun when ordered to, then I wouldn't be too surprised or upset if the police dealt with that situation. Then again, when I am stopped by the police (speeding in my younger days and still the occasional license check) I roll down my window and put my hands on the door in plain sight of the approaching officer because I want him/her to feel as safe and comfortable as possible. I address them as ma'am or sir and I am not belligerent. If I got out of my car and was ordered back in and didn't obey and continued to advance toward a cop I would not be surprised to be tased or shot. IF I HAD A GUN AND DID THAT, I SHOULD EXPECT TO BE SHOT. I'm sure somehow this is my fault for seeing it this way though.

[jednc]

5 hours ago, NYCLT said:

In 2015, officers killed 662 whites and Hispanics, and 258 blacks. Blacks made up 26% of all police shootings while representing 13% of the population.

However, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, blacks were charged with 62% of all robberies, 57% of murders and 45% of assaults in the 75 largest U.S. counties in 2009, though they made up roughly 15% of the population there.

Did anyone ever think that representing 3-5 times more violent crime in these categories per capita has anything to do with double the police shootings per capita?

This is my opinion, but I'm willing to bet that something like 90% of police shootings happen on calls for robbery, homicide and assault. Increased crime demands increased police presence and you're 3-5 times more likely to get a call to a violent crime with this group. The higher number of interactions in dangerous situations, called to a violent crime, means a higher likelihood of shootings, justifiable or not. In order to say there is a systemic problem, you can't look at 1-2 videos every few months - they are shocking but do not prove a systemic problem.

For those of you who support BLM, what exactly from a policy standpoint do you want to see happen? I'm just curious because it seems like they're always compounding the problem instead of trying to solve it

2

You are touching on something here that really bugs me. The same stats you shared (blacks were charged with 62% of all robberies, 57% of murders and 45% of assaults in the 75 largest U.S. counties in 2009, though they made up roughly 15% of the population there) are sometimes used by people to say this proves the police are racists because they do arrest and charge more minorities with crimes. While I can admit intellectually that this might be the case, my common sense tells me that police departments all across America are not  part of some conspiracy to unjustly blame minorities. Especially when many police cheifs (Charlotte) are members of the minorities themselves. Is there room for more accounatability? Sure. Overall is the problem that there are too many minority offenders causing WAY more than their share of the problems? You betcha.

5 hours ago, NYCLT said:

In 2015, officers killed 662 whites and Hispanics, and 258 blacks. Blacks made up 26% of all police shootings while representing 13% of the population.

However, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, blacks were charged with 62% of all robberies, 57% of murders and 45% of assaults in the 75 largest U.S. counties in 2009, though they made up roughly 15% of the population there.

Did anyone ever think that representing 3-5 times more violent crime in these categories per capita has anything to do with double the police shootings per capita?

This is my opinion, but I'm willing to bet that something like 90% of police shootings happen on calls for robbery, homicide and assault. Increased crime demands increased police presence and you're 3-5 times more likely to get a call to a violent crime with this group. The higher number of interactions in dangerous situations, called to a violent crime, means a higher likelihood of shootings, justifiable or not. In order to say there is a systemic problem, you can't look at 1-2 videos every few months - they are shocking but do not prove a systemic problem.

For those of you who support BLM, what exactly from a policy standpoint do you want to see happen? I'm just curious because it seems like they're always compounding the problem instead of trying to solve it

2

You are touching on something here that really bugs me. The same stats you shared (blacks were charged with 62% of all robberies, 57% of murders and 45% of assaults in the 75 largest U.S. counties in 2009, though they made up roughly 15% of the population there) are sometimes used by people to say this proves the police are racists because they do arrest and charge more minorities with crimes. While I can admit intellectually that this might be the case, my common sense tells me that police departments all across America are not  part of some conspiracy to unjustly blame minorities. Especially when many police cheifs (Charlotte) are members of the minorities themselves. Is there room for more accounatability? Sure. Overall is the problem that there are too many minority offenders causing WAY more than their share of the problems? You betcha.

[dxartist]

1 hour ago, Jayvee said:

ANd what did all those incidents accomplish? Not a thing. Rodney King was 24 (I think) years ago and the same crap is still happening. 

It gets attention, albeit fleeting.  These people feel the only way they can be heard if everything else fails is violence and destruction as their last resort.  Not saying that right, but that seems to be the only way their voices are heard by the powers that be (government).

[grodney]

Family watched the body cam and dash cam. They say you can't tell what, if anything, he's holding. Says hands were at his side and he was walking backward when shot. Oy. If that's true, if there's no gun visible and he's not being aggressive, releasing the video will not help.

[cltbwimob]

Seems as if things are much calmer tonight.  Many citizens forming human chains keeping protestors away from police and minimizing chances for confrontation (God bless these people).  No reported property damage.  Much better Charlotte.

[Nashtitans]

http://www.wsoctv.com/news/local/cmpd-chief-family-will-see-shooting-video-no-plans-to-release-footage-to-public/448916726

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/local/crime/article103367547.html

 

Thoughts on this?

[kermit]

Our 'esteemed' congressional representative weighs in on the cause of unrest in Charlotte:

http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/9/22/13024384/a-member-of-congress-said-charlotte-protestors-hate-white-people?utm_campaign=vox.social&utm_medium=social&utm_content=voxdotcom&utm_source=twitter

I guess he has gotten comfortable with the FBI and IRS investigationing him and is ready for some new 'policy initiatives.'

#idiot

edit: bobby's remarks have gotten more press in the UK than the riots did -- I woke up to the BBC's story about his remarks.

[jednc]

On 9/23/2016 at 4:36 AM, kermit said:

Our 'esteemed' congressional representative weighs in on the cause of unrest in Charlotte:

http://www.vox.com/identities/2016/9/22/13024384/a-member-of-congress-said-charlotte-protestors-hate-white-people?utm_campaign=vox.social&utm_medium=social&utm_content=voxdotcom&utm_source=twitter

I guess he has gotten comfortable with the FBI and IRS investigationing him and is ready for some new 'policy initiatives.'

#idiot

edit: bobby's remarks have gotten more press in the UK than the riots did -- I woke up to the BBC's story about his remarks.

Well, didn't he make those comments while being interviewed by a British Paper/TV show? Not surprising they'd follow that more closely then.

[grodney]

McCrory's campaign used the word "hosed" yesterday.  Or I'm trippin'.

"For New York hedge fund billionaires to lecture North Carolina about how to conduct its affairs is the height of hypocrisy. Sadly, we are not in the least bit surprised by this attack," McCrory's campaign said. "Hillary Clinton and Roy Cooper have raised ungodly amounts of money from the very people from Goldman Sachs and Wall Street who hosed everyday working North Carolinians during the Great Recession." 

http://www.wral.com/investors-call-for-repeal-of-hb2-say-it-s-bad-for-business-in-nc/16048736/

 

[Guest]

I just wanted to share a campaign I worked on in Raleigh. I Conceptualized this and designed the food truck for the Daily Show. 

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/emmbcg/the-daily-show-with-trevor-noah-putting-north-carolina-s-anti-lgbt-law-to-the-test

Apologies for the very shameless plug for myself. lol

[InSouthPark]

11 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

I just wanted to share a campaign I worked on in Raleigh. I Conceptualized this and designed the food truck for the Daily Show. 

http://www.cc.com/video-clips/emmbcg/the-daily-show-with-trevor-noah-putting-north-carolina-s-anti-lgbt-law-to-the-test

Apologies for the very shameless plug for myself. lol

That's funny s*^t right there.