The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[FrankNash]

The East-West BRT with dedicated lanes will be built and after a year or two the other pikes will be transformed over to the same system. Nashville will use this for weekday commuting and weekend cafe,parks and bar hopping. Once the city is a organized maze of busses,trains and greenways the Franklin, Murfreesboro, and Clarksville commuter rail will be built with a train station somewhere in the Gulch. It just takes time to sell mass transit, it starts with what works well and is affordable. Look, I like the rest of you know what we needed 10 years ago but, it is what it is. Nashville is very slow and steady. We wil probability never be a cutting edge city for transportation but in time it will be what we need.

[nashvylle]

I hope this pans out, for Nashville and America.

http://www.ushsr.com/ushsrmap.html

[Nathan_in_DC]

I hope this pans out, for Nashville and America.

http://www.ushsr.com/ushsrmap.html

I'd love to see it too, but the HSRA's plan is too much of a pipe dream (not to mention that it still totally neglects most of Appalachia). They're suggesting that in 18 years we would have a complete high speed rail network crisscrossing the country, which is just not going to happen in that amount of time without some sort of Stalin-esque dictatorship. Yes, rail will expand, but it will also be much more incremental (as it should be). The amount of money that will require a true network like this to exist is going to be massive, not to mention the amount of political clout that it will require due to the necessity of establishing new rights of way. It's almost on par with building a new interstate highway system.

Look at how long it has taken just to build SR-840...this is orders of magnitude greater than that. Existing rail networks are so degraded, and not to mention crowded, that they will basically have to be completely rebuilt to have even highway-level speeds across most of the country. Almost all of them will have to be upgraded to 2 or 4 rail setups, something that just doesn't exist outside of the Northeast.

Edited May 30, 2012 by Volanova

[Hey_Hey]

I hope this pans out, for Nashville and America.

http://www.ushsr.com/ushsrmap.html

The frustrating thing is that this could have happened. Think back to 2009 when the US Congress passed and President Obama signed the $800-900 billion stimulus package. It was hailed as a stimulus package that would fund "shovel ready" projects that would put American back to work. Unfortunately, only $105 billion went to infrastructure improvements. The rest went to temporary support for states, temorary tax credits, healthcare, education spending, extension of unemployment benefits, energy efficiency efforts, and some others.

We could have spent a little more than half of the total stimulus budget and funded the full HSR network in the US. While the design, planning, and construction jobs would have provided some immediate economic stimulus, the real benefits would have been realized over the next century with increased productivity and economic growth. Essentially, all of the benefits of the 2009 stimulus are gone at this point but the interest payments and debt maintenance remain which is making real infrastructure improvements for the US less likely.

[arkitekte]

The frustrating thing is that this could have happened. Think back to 2009 when the US Congress passed and President Obama signed the $800-900 billion stimulus package. It was hailed as a stimulus package that would fund "shovel ready" projects that would put American back to work. Unfortunately, only $105 billion went to infrastructure improvements. The rest went to temporary support for states, temorary tax credits, healthcare, education spending, extension of unemployment benefits, energy efficiency efforts, and some others.

We could have spent a little more than half of the total stimulus budget and funded the full HSR network in the US. While the design, planning, and construction jobs would have provided some immediate economic stimulus, the real benefits would have been realized over the next century with increased productivity and economic growth. Essentially, all of the benefits of the 2009 stimulus are gone at this point but the interest payments and debt maintenance remain which is making real infrastructure improvements for the US less likely.

Yes, but overall you have to consider what was most important at the time, and I consider healthcare, education spending, extension of unemployment benefits, etc. more important that the HSR network.

[BnaBreaker]

Yes, but overall you have to consider what was most important at the time, and I consider healthcare, education spending, extension of unemployment benefits, etc. more important that the HSR network.

Agreed, but very clearly, all that's really lacking in this country to prevent this country from building this high speed rail network is the foresight and political will-power to do it.

[samsonh]

Nashvylle,

I agree with almost every point you made. However roads most certainly pay for themselves, since roads in large part are paid for by fuel taxes.

Mass transit will take off when it makes economic sense, you cannot force people to ride it.

[Hey_Hey]

Yes, but overall you have to consider what was most important at the time, and I consider healthcare, education spending, extension of unemployment benefits, etc. more important that the HSR network.

Those things may have seemed important at the time, but I contend that funding those things in an attempt to stimulate the economy will do so only on a short term basis. I would lump most of that funding into the category of social programs, things that may be important for the government to fund on a somewhat limited basis but programs that won't inherently make the economy grow.

Think back to the Great Depression and look at how government programs were used to stimulate the economy. For example, instead of simply providing an unemployment check to someone for twice as long as normal the government employed that person in the CCC or the WPA which provided infrastructure, buildings, and parks that we still use today and that continue to stimulate the economy. Or consider TVA, which is especially important for this area. It provided funds that fundamentally altered the economic outlook of this area by making it ripe for industrialization, commerce, and transportation.

We're now 3 years out from the stimulus package, and we essentially have nothing that remains of the money except $100 billion or so of scattered infrastructure improvements. A fraction of the education spending went to buildings, but most of it went to temporary programs that are now unfunded. Extended unemployment benefits may have marginally improved the economy by allowing people to continue living at their previous level for a few more months. State aid has now run dry, and instead of making cuts three years ago they are now making the cuts.

My concern is that we are becoming a country that doesn't truly invest in our future. We're spending more and more money on programs that attempt to maintain a certain quality of life instead of investing in infrastructure that improves quality of life by increasing productivity, commerce, trade, and transportation. We are, in essence, becoming the Europe of the mid-to-late 20th century while China, India, Brazil and others are becoming the US of the mid-to-late 20th century. The US has a history of building great structures and forward thinking infrastructure projects.....the Pentagon was built in a year and a half, the interstate system was built over a generation, TVA constructed almost 50 dams that helped prevent floods, provided efficient electricity production for industry, and allowed for huge economic gains.

For half of what we spent on the stimulus we could have revolutionized the way Americans traveled for the next century. 50 years from now the cumulative economic development, speed of transportation and subsequent decreased use of fossil fuels would have been immeasurable and would have provided for a higher standard of living than anything the federal government could have provided with a one time infusion of money. It would have been the interstate system or TVA of our time.

Instead we are sitting by watching the Chinese do what we should be doing. They're growing their economy. We seem to be content with maintaining.

[timmay143]

Well, it's official.

Bus Service From Clarksville To Nashville Begins Friday

http://www.newschannel5.com/story/18676017/bus-service-from-clarksville-to-nashville-begins-friday

[MLBrumby]

You guys must understand that an alarmingly greater amount of our national budget is going just to interest on our debt. Right now, the federal government is spending $1.40 for every $1 it gets in revenue. At this rate, in four years the federal government will be spending 75% of its budget on interest alone. Everything is stagnant now because there is a collar around the productive forces in this country in the form of uncertainty, impending high taxes in 2013, overregulation (have you tried to buy a house in the past year?... I did, and the banks kept going back-and-forth to get everything but my blood type... and my credit score is 825! and I have bought two houses before!), high fuel costs (don't forget too that the flood of dollars from QE1/QE2 have inflated petrodollars to where we all pay a greater price. And nobody in Washington is serious about fixing this "fix" we're in. So sick about Obama, for whom I voted but will absolutely not in November, who had both houses of Congress for the first two years of his presidency... and did he try to fix the economy? Hell no! All we have heard from his is "not my fault"! Say what? You are the President of the United States! Hope and change, my arse!

So on the track we're presently on, we won't be able to afford squat in 5 years, let alone HSR.

Edited June 3, 2012 by MLBrumby

[Hey_Hey]

You guys must understand that an alarmingly greater amount of our national budget is going just to interest on our debt. Right now, the federal government is spending $1.40 for every $1 it gets in revenue. At this rate, in four years the federal government will be spending 75% of its budget on interest alone. Everything is stagnant now because there is a collar around the productive forces in this country in the form of uncertainty, impending high taxes in 2013, overregulation (have you tried to buy a house in the past year?... I did, and the banks kept going back-and-forth to get everything but my blood type... and my credit score is 825! and I have bought two houses before!), high fuel costs (don't forget too that the flood of dollars from QE1/QE2 have inflated petrodollars to where we all pay a greater price. And nobody in Washington is serious about fixing this "fix" we're in. So sick about Obama, for whom I voted but will absolutely not in November, who had both houses of Congress for the first two years of his presidency... and did he try to fix the economy? Hell no! All we have heard from his is "not my fault"! Say what? You are the President of the United States! Hope and change, my arse!

So on the track we're presently on, we won't be able to afford squat in 5 years, let alone HSR.

You're absolutely correct. We currently aren't in any position to spend money because of the amount of money we're using on debt maintenance. We're going down the same road that Europe went down with increasing requirements for social spending because of the aging of society (Medicare and Social Security). We're currently funding these programs with debt. And I'm not implying that these programs aren't worthwhile, but they are unsustainable with currently written laws. Currently Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, CHIP consume around 45% of our budget, with projections of over 50% in the next few years. There are currently only 2.8 workers for every social security retiree. Something has to give. The math simply doesn't work with the benefits rules written as they currently are.

We're currently spending around $250 billion a year on interest payments alone. That's enough to fund the national HSR system's construction every two years. Or it could fund the construction of Nashville's East-West Connector with LRT a thousand times over. Another way of looking at it....the 100 largest cities in the country could construct 10 light rail lines like the East-West Connector every year. We've gotten our priorities mixed up, and our infrastructure is not going to keep up with the emerging countries of the world that are pouring money into massive infrastructure programs.

[timmay143]

Album on FB from Nashville MPO on a BRT in Eugene/Springfield, Oregon. I think the E/W corridor is more important to get functionality necessarily than what it looks like. Of course there is obviously a low standard as a limit.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150893786288541.428670.187770703540&type=1

A blog post on the visit to Eugene.

http://www.nashvillechamber.com/Homepage/NewsEvents/Blog/Stephanie_Coleman/12-05-11/Transit_Sustainability_Among_Best_Practices_Learned_From_Portland_Eugene.aspx

[BnaBreaker]

Album on FB from Nashville MPO on a BRT in Eugene/Springfield, Oregon. I think the E/W corridor is more important to get functionality necessarily than what it looks like. Of course there is obviously a low standard as a limit.

http://www.facebook....70703540&type=1

A blog post on the visit to Eugene.

http://www.nashville...and_Eugene.aspx

Ugh. I hate to keep using this cynical tone in regards to the BRT, but how depressing and embarrassing is it that Nashville is learning it's lessons and getting it's ideas about mass transit from a city that is almost five times smaller? I mean, it is what it is and we have to start somewhere, but even after this big investment in our mass transit system and the construction of this BRT is complete, Nashville will have a mass transit system that is on par with...Eugene, Oregon.

[timmay143]

A good article regarding some info on the Mayor's budget including an expanded BRT lite down Murfreesboro Rd., the tax hike, and the BRT E/W connector.

Dean's proposed budget would expand bus rapid transit 'lite'

http://nashvillecitypaper.com/content/city-news/deans-proposed-budget-would-expand-bus-rapid-transit-lite

[timmay143]

Ugh. I hate to keep using this cynical tone in regards to the BRT, but how depressing and embarrassing is it that Nashville is learning it's lessons and getting it's ideas about mass transit from a city that is almost five times smaller? I mean, it is what it is and we have to start somewhere, but even after this big investment in our mass transit system and the construction of this BRT is complete, Nashville will have a mass transit system that is on par with...Eugene, Oregon.

According to Transit Alliance of Middle Tennessee

A report from the road where a transit trip is underway:

"We were in Portland Sunday to yesterday where we experienced all of Portland's mix of amazing transportation choices. We came to Eugene last night and today will ride on and learn about their innovative bus rapid transit system...the EmX. The Chamber group includes Mayor Dean and many business and civic leaders." - Ed Cole, Transit Alliance MidTN Executive Director.

So they at least went to Portland too...does that help?

[BnaBreaker]

According to Transit Alliance of Middle Tennessee

So they at least went to Portland too...does that help?

Haha, I suppose somewhat. Though Portland has light rail...so...apparently the team didn't learn much there? lol

Edited June 6, 2012 by BnaBreaker

[timmay143]

Some more to chew on with BRT. Austin, TX is planning a BRT (actually two) route(s).

http://fastlane.dot....austin-brt.html

In Austin, Administrator Rogoff signed a grant agreement providing $38 million to build a bus rapid transit system in Austin, bringing additional transportation choices to one of the most congested mid-size cities in the country.

The new MetroRapid bus service will include 40 new bus stations with 40 clean diesel buses running along a 37.5 mile route parallel to the region’s main highways, I-35 and Loop-1. The service will make it easier for riders to access the State Capitol, the University of Texas, and the opportunities available in downtown Austin’s central business district.

President Obama is advocating an all-of-the-above energy strategy for the United States, and that includes giving people more transportation choices. The MetroRapid BRT will let people save on gas if they choose the new service. More than 20,000 daily riders are expected to use the service when it begins in 2014. Combined with our fuel-economy requirements and other transit investments, this project moves us that much closer to achieving our goal of reducing oil imports by a third in a little over a decade.

Austin's Capital Metro also expects the project to create more than 100 construction-related jobs. And, the entire community will benefit from the reduced carbon emissions generated when riders choose to leave their cars in their driveways for the convenience of BRT.

Although, the comments at the end of the article aren't too encouraging .

From an Austin local news station.

http://www.kxan.com/...m-federal-grant

Plans for MetroRapid include two high-capacity, rapid bus lines along North Lamar Boulevard/South Congress Avenue and Burnet/South Lamar Boulevard -- the densest and highest ridership transit markets in the region.

Capital Metro anticipates more than 20,000 daily boardings when the service begins in 2014. Each bus fits a maximum of 118 riders, both sitting and standing.

MetroRapid will feature sleek, modern buses with greater passenger amenities on the bus and at the station. Limited stops, multiple-door boarding, signal priority technology, and dedicated bus lanes through the heart of downtown translate into quicker travel times. MetroRapid will offer all-day service with 10-minute frequencies during rush hours.

The federal funding from the FTA’s Very Small Starts program will fund a full 80 percent of the $47.6 million total project cost to get MetroRapid rolling down Austin’s streets. State and local officials joined Rogoff at Republic Square Park today to make the funding announcement and tour a portion of the MetroRapid route through downtown, as well as ride MetroRail.

Austin not yet ready for another rail project (LRT/streetcar). What is their rail line officially? A heavy/commuter rail with all day service, a LRT, or a hybrid? Ah, Wiki says commuter rail (built on existing freight rail) but their frequency is about every 30 min to 1hr or so.

http://www.statesman...ed-2183494.html

AUSTIN (KXAN) - Mayor Lee Leffingwell said Friday he does not believe that plans for an urban rail project that would cost taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars has the public support needed to justify moving forward.

"It’s become increasingly clear to me that some critical components of a successful system remain, at this point, uncomfortably uncertain," Leffingwell wrote in a blog post just after noon.

"Most importantly, in my view, we do not yet have a sufficient level of certainty regarding a plan to fund and manage operations and maintenance of an urban rail system," he added. "We also do not yet have the degree of certainty that I would like to see as it relates to a prospective federal funding match for construction costs, which is a fundamental need."

Earlier this week, the Austin City Council heard a presentation suggesting that Phase 1 of an urban rail project would would cost taxpayers up to $275 million and could be operational by 2021. The proposal included placing the project on the planned November bond election and aggressively pursuing federal funds to ease burden on local taxpayers.

Another view on Austin's proposed BRT. Maybe a little more practical without all the fluff.

http://www.statesman...ed-2183494.html

Edited June 6, 2012 by timmay143

[MidTenn1]

Riders with pre-purchased fare cards will be able to board through any of three doors in the 60-foot buses and either of two doors on the 40-footers, swiping the card by electronic readers near each door. Currently, all Capital Metro bus riders must enter through the front door, so agency officials see some time savings from this change."

I always wondered how the boarding was to be accomplished. I suppose you can purchase a one-time pass at the platform. This would allow the use of multiple doors, so they can speed up boarding.

Edited June 6, 2012 by PHofKS

[HKG]

I mentioned this in the forum meet thread, but I wanted to bring it up over here. A couple of weekends ago when I was in town, I wanted to catch a bus on 21st in Hillsboro Village to downtown. Unfortunately, on a Saturday in the middle of the day in a section of town with one of the highest levels of pedestrian activity, not to mention tourists, the bus only ran once an hour. The freaking suburban commuter trains in Philadelphia run more often than that, and the transit agency running those, SEPTA, is renowned as one of the worst in any major city in the US. On top of this, had I decided to try and get one, I would have been completely ripped off. I could not locate a ticket counter or machine anywhere near where I was, and was going to get screwed over if I paid with the $20 in my pocket due to the fact that change was given on a transit card. Frankly, I could have called a cab and been downtown and back for $20.

No wonder ridership is so terrible in Nashville. What do you expect when it's so inconvenient?

Next time you're in the situation, try the 11 bus that picks up at 21st and Blakemore. Its supplements the frequency of the 7 bus (or infrequency on the weekends). Also, did you consider making change at the regions bank or any of the shops in the village? As for ridership comment, just wanted to point out that the MTAs ridership is increasing rather dramatically, which hopefully leads to more frequent service in the future.

[Nathan_in_DC]

Next time you're in the situation, try the 11 bus that picks up at 21st and Blakemore. Its supplements the frequency of the 7 bus (or infrequency on the weekends). Also, did you consider making change at the regions bank or any of the shops in the village? As for ridership comment, just wanted to point out that the MTAs ridership is increasing rather dramatically, which hopefully leads to more frequent service in the future.

I suppose I should have been a little clearer on my location, I was on 21st near 440, so while Blakemore would be walkable, it was further than what could be considered convenient. As for the cash issue, at heart it is my fault for not having anything smaller, but it is also supremely annoying to not be able to use a card, phone app, etc., to pay, or get change in something other than a fare card. MTA is having increased ridership, you're correct on that, but it could be so much more if it was only slightly more convenient than it currently is.

I just don't see how MTA can run a bus only once an hour on one of the busiest pedestrian and shopping corridors in the city on a Saturday. At least to Green Hills, it should be at minimum every 30 minutes (preferably every 15) between 11AM and 5PM on Saturday. I know it may not be feasible with equipment limitations, but one can hope...

[nashvylle]

Really hopes this happens, later transforming to streetcars.

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20120610/BUSINESS/306100032/For-Nashville-bus-rapid-transit-ideal-idealistic-?odyssey=tab{sodEmoji.|}topnews{sodEmoji.|}text{sodEmoji.|}FRONTPAGE

[FrankNash]

The East-West BRT is one of the best cases for build it and they will come. Along with the sold out LP field,Bridgestone arena in the top 10 in the country,Top venue picked by both artist and concert goers Ryam auditorium,and now the music city center with above projected bookings shows that in Nashville more than not we build and they do come!

[timmay143]

Ugh, the naysayers. I hope they enjoy sitting in hours of traffic and a bus hits their car... j/k of course.

[built_ford_tough]

Ugh, the naysayers. I hope they enjoy sitting in hours of traffic and a bus hits their car... j/k of course.

I think my favorite was from the lady from Clarksville who didn't see how it would help people from outside of Nashville... Like why even ask that lady for a quote? It's not supposed to directly help you when you live an hour away.

Edited June 10, 2012 by built_ford_tough

[smeagolsfree]

Overall it was not a bad article for the Tennessean. This is one of their veteran writers that has been around for a while. I can think if a couple of other ways to fund some of this and not sure if Metro can impose a separate gas tax in Davidson County, but that would generate revenue and also increasing the wheel tax and also a usage fee for miles driven in a year that would be tracked trough the Wheel tax and emission stations. Just trying to get right riled up here but there has to be a way to get a mass transit off the ground. I am starting to think like a liberal. OMG Help me.