The Transportation and Mass Transit Megathread

[NashvilleObserver]

3 hours ago, TheRaglander said:

Clearly this new proposal will do nothing for me or commuters coming in from the outer burbs.  Who really benefits from this 5 billion?  Are there enough people along this route to use it this much?   Resident/work?  

Same here. I live downtown and work in Green Hills and Brentwood. This does nothing for me.

Charlotte? I steer clear of that area. Nolensville Pike? No thanks. Murfreesboro Rd? Yikes. Gallatin Pike? Can't think of any reason I'd head in that direction.

How about linking the CBD to 12th south, 8th avenue, WEST END, the Gulch, Sobro, Green Hills?? Tourists would use these lines like crazy. That's the demographic we should be catering to. Is there any reason a weekend visitor would need to travel down Charlotte or Murfreesboro Pike? 

Also, Nashville's traffic congestion is from people from OUTSIDE the county. This does nothing to alleviate that.

Edited October 17, 2017 by NashvilleObserver

[BnaBreaker]

14 minutes ago, markhollin said:

^ ^ ^ The roads aren't wide enough in those areas for light rail.  The only other solution would be to run lines down alleys---and perhaps some ideas like that will be in long range plans.

Well, it's definitely wide enough down West End Ave (but I won't rehash that old AMP argument haha)... and as for Hillsboro, they are proposing BRT through there, so presumably there'd be enough room for light rail too?  What am I missing...

[Rockatansky]

37 minutes ago, BnaBreaker said:

It makes very little sense to me that light rail isn't coming anywhere near some of the densest parts of the city, like Hillsboro/Belmont, Vanderbilt, 12 South, and Germantown

These neighborhoods made their disdain for transit well known during the AMP debate. It only makes sense that future transit plans would steer LRT away from them.

4 minutes ago, BnaBreaker said:

proposing BRT

Not BRT, Rapid Bus. No dedicated lanes as I understand it.

[BnaBreaker]

Just now, Rockatansky said:

These neighborhoods made their disdain for transit well known during the AMP debate. It only makes sense that future transit plans would steer LRT away from them.

I could be wrong, but by memory it wasn't them necessarily as much as it was the Cadillac class upper crust types who lived further down West End Ave. closer to St. Thomas Hospital where the AMP line was to terminate that were causing a stink.

[AronG]

Yeah that's the irony of this whole moment. The AMP debacle is why West End (and Green Hills, 12th South, etc.) are viewed as unattainable for the first pass at this. Yeah they're some of the densest areas of the current city and they SHOULD be begging for transit, but they're also wealthier and more influential when it comes to the political power of the current car commuters that use those roads. Now the first wave of this is being targeted at areas that have demonstrated an appetite for transit, i.e. bus riders.

Edited October 17, 2017 by AronG

[nashwatcher]

These are the best corridors for bringing commuters into downtown. Development will continue to grow along these corridors as well as Nashvillr continues to grow. It's a fantastic start.

I agree smaller lines would be nice within the city. Like a street car running along Division from SoBro to the Gulch to Vanderbilt/Midtown and back.

 

[AronG]

13 minutes ago, NashvilleObserver said:

How about linking the CBD to 12th south, 8th avenue, the Gulch, Sobro, Green Hills?? Tourists would use these lines like crazy. That's the demographic we should be catering to. Is there any reason a weekend visitor would need to travel down Charlotte or Murfreesboro Pike? 

Well, the murf. pike line is going to tie into the airport, which is a pretty big haul of tourists.

[BnaBreaker]

18 minutes ago, Rockatansky said:

Not BRT, Rapid Bus. No dedicated lanes as I understand it.

Yikes, well that is certainly a huge let down.  What on earth is "rapid bus" if it has no dedicated lanes?  Just a regular bus with a fancy name? 

[PruneTracy]

20 minutes ago, BnaBreaker said:

Yikes, well that is certainly a huge let down.  What on earth is "rapid bus" if it has no dedicated lanes?  Just a regular bus with a fancy name? 

The cost of that proposed tunnel could pay for dedicated lanes on all of the routes. Not to mention the cost of light rail versus BRT.

[Rockatansky]

26 minutes ago, BnaBreaker said:

Yikes, well that is certainly a huge let down.  What on earth is "rapid bus" if it has no dedicated lanes?  Just a regular bus with a fancy name? 

Signal prioritization and partial dedicated lanes in certain neighborhoods (ie. where ROW is wide enough and the neighborhood doesn't pitch a fit about dedicated lanes).

[12Mouth]

59 minutes ago, BnaBreaker said:

I could be wrong, but by memory it wasn't them necessarily as much as it was the Cadillac class upper crust types who lived further down West End Ave. closer to St. Thomas Hospital where the AMP line was to terminate that were causing a stink.

Yes - it was mostly the neighbors on both sides of West End outside of the 440 loop (and one unnamed car dealership owner inside of the loop). Hillsboro Village and 12South/Belmont would completely support transit, although I suspect Oak Hill would pitch a fit if they touched 8th Ave S. 

12South/Belmont and the Gulch are clearly omissions, but they also don't really have a serious traffic problem right now. I can drive, rideshare, or ride my bike downtown from 12South at almost any time of day without hitting any traffic. This really seems like a commuter and airport transit plan geared towards heavy traffic areas and for those who have a destination of downtown. I suppose this makes sense right now?  

But I can't help but thinking that this will look so short-sided when it is completed in 2032. This seems like a transit plan that could have been completed in 2002. This is not bold - it is quite the opposite (apart from digging a giant tunnel through downtown). 

Won't anything that is not running in a completely dedicated lane lose the convenience battle to autonomous ride shares 100% of the time in 2032? I also just don't get the light rail piece at all. We are gaining nothing on the convenience front for so much more expense. 

Am I wrong here? Can someone talk me down and convince me that this is all a great idea?

[titanhog]

1 hour ago, BnaBreaker said:

Yikes, well that is certainly a huge let down.  What on earth is "rapid bus" if it has no dedicated lanes?  Just a regular bus with a fancy name? 

"Not-so" Rapid Bus will be what they'll call it. 

[smeagolsfree]

I  was hoping there would be an EAst west tunnel, but no.

[Flatrock]

3 hours ago, BnaBreaker said:

It still kind of irks me that light rail in this case is being treated more as a commuter line to shuttle people in and out of the city rather than as a way for people who actually live within the urban areas of the city to get from one part of the city to the other.  It makes very little sense to me that light rail isn't coming anywhere near some of the densest parts of the city, like Hillsboro/Belmont, Vanderbilt, 12 South, and Germantown, where there would actually be pedestrians who wanted to hop on and off, and yet, we have light rail going down the primarily suburban sprawl lined Murfreesboro Rd and Nolensville Rd where pedestrians are almost non-existent.  All that being said, however, I am thrilled to see this plan begin to take shape and am excited for the possibilities.  

There are quite a few neighborhoods abutting Nolensville Pike/2nd Ave/4th Ave - along the proposed transit  lines -that are in the city's urban overlay....and are appropriately dense. Pedstrians everywhere in my neighborhood. Particularly north of the zoo. We don't walk on Nolensville Pike itself because it's scary as hell. Not many crosswalks + some crummy drivers = potential disaster. With the transit plan will come complete streets and we'll use them. And we will be using mass transit when/if it comes - at least;  that's my plan if it happens before I die. All my friends and neighbors feel the same.

[nashwatcher]

17 minutes ago, Flatrock said:

There are quite a few neighborhoods abutting Nolensville Pike/2nd Ave/4th Ave - along the proposed transit  lines -that are in the city's urban overlay....and are appropriately dense. Pedstrians everywhere in my neighborhood. Particularly north of the zoo. We don't walk on Nolensville Pike itself because it's scary as hell. Not many crosswalks + some crummy drivers = potential disaster. With the transit plan will come complete streets and we'll use them. And we will be using mass transit when/if it comes - at least;  that's my plan if it happens before I die. All my friends and neighbors feel the same.

Agree completely. Does anyone notice how the Nolensville line breaks off as its about to enter downtown in two parallel lines? I know the Murfreesboro/Nolensville lines will have a transit center in SoBro where they meet, but why does it break off a little before? Any ideas

[PruneTracy]

1 hour ago, 12Mouth said:

Am I wrong here? Can someone talk me down and convince me that this is all a great idea?

Frankly, it seems a misapplication of $5.2 billion. For that amount, Nashville could have several true BRT lines with dedicated ROW that would attract more riders from more areas.

As it stands, the proposal leaves several areas of Metro hanging for the sake of constructing vanity services—namely, light rail—that provide service for a minority of residents. Look at how many Metro taxpayers are spending $5.2 billion for "improved local routes" in their neighborhoods.

And there is no way the downtown tunnel passes a cost/benefit analysis. I understand the need but that's a lot of money to drop for what amounts to a two-mile transfer line. Let's be real, it's a subway, and as much positive growth as we've seen in Nashville, it has a long way to go before it is a subway town. Lots of new density downtown but not nearly enough to warrant a transit mode that can cost up to $2 billion per mile just to build.

I've said this a million times on here, but Nashville and its peer cities would do themselves a great favor if they would stop trying to cater to vanity riders, who like the idea of using mass transit more than the reality, and focus on moving people around. It doesn't make sense to blow your political capital, then to blow your real capital, on transit lines that serve only a few people who just can't be seen riding a bus, only for them to decide after the money gets spent they don't want to ride a shiny new train, tram, or streetcar either. If Metro as a whole is going to pay for this, improve service for Metro as a whole.

[Pdt2f]

The question I ask all of you is this: if the goal of public transit is to significantly decrease congestion and make it easier and more efficient for the average citizen to maneuver around town, does this plan accomplish that goal? Is it a good use of $5.2 billion taxpayer dollars, or are there better ways that don't have a sexy hook like subway stations? 

[Neigeville2]

There's no point in spending a huge wad of money so we can have more empty buses coasting around.  The downtown tunnel is necessary so you can have direct connections to buses, via Music City Central, trains traveling at some kind of speed downtown, and actual train stops inside the CBD which will take some people close to their work/play/dine destinations.  The mere fact of a subway stop at 5th and Broadway makes this a huge attractant to tourists and locals.   Light Rail failed in Austin because they went cheap and built one DT station way off to the side that dumped you a half mile from the main destinations.   Go big or you're wasting your time and money.

The "I'm against it because it doesn't stop in front of my house argument" doesn't work for me either.  It's part of a system.  Nobody uses every part, but the more highly functioning parts there are, and the easier it is to connect between them, the better for everyone in a myriad of ways.   And way more people will ride buses when they connect to some kind of rail.

As for how much it would cost to build an elevated system downtown, I assume we mean in whining and moaning?  I am a huge advocate of elevated trains, but trains screaming through the city over people's heads, blocking views, and giving strangers peeks into 2nd story windows isn't a hard sell, it's a not-going-to-happen.

[nashvillwill]

5 hours ago, NashvilleObserver said:

Same here. I live downtown and work in Green Hills and Brentwood. This does nothing for me.

Charlotte? I steer clear of that area. Nolensville Pike? No thanks. Murfreesboro Rd? Yikes. Gallatin Pike? Can't think of any reason I'd head in that direction.

How about linking the CBD to 12th south, 8th avenue, WEST END, the Gulch, Sobro, Green Hills?? Tourists would use these lines like crazy. That's the demographic we should be catering to. Is there any reason a weekend visitor would need to travel down Charlotte or Murfreesboro Pike? 

Also, Nashville's traffic congestion is from people from OUTSIDE the county. This does nothing to alleviate that.

You win “elitist post of the year award”.  

The fundamental point of transit is not a toy for the wealth, nor is it a shuttle service for tourists. It is to fill a need of the people. The people who would use it most are the people along these corridors. Tourist will be very bored, if the people staffing all those attractions can’t get to work. Just like public schools, a police force, and a free to use road system, it is to serve the greater good. We don’t distribute our schools, roads and police force out evenly per square mile. We focus them where they are needed. In the case of transit, the people that would use it most are along Charlotte, M’boro and Dickerson Rd (Gallatin Rd is the main corridor through east). Not only that, but these are also the more undeveloped corridors, therefore they could benefit significantly from new development. Transit would be a shot in the arm for these areas. 

I don’t mean to be a jerk by the way I lead off this post, but your comments don’t sit well with me. 

[AronG]

I think there's inherently going to be a lot of frustration with any new transit plan if you approach this from the standpoint of "Today I live in X and I work in Y and this doesn't help me." All of the places we currently live and work were built very specifically around the needs of our current transportation grid. If you plant a tree it grows toward the sunlight, and all of our development in the last 70 years has taken place in that environment.

But now there are a million more people headed our way and there's no way to get them enough "sunlight" on the street grid. The primary undertaking of this transit system (and the extra $100-200 million/year in taxes) is to provide a new backbone around which future development can grow. It will benefit some people's current transportation needs, but the bigger goal is to allow our city to continue to grow without devolving into gridlock. If you live in Green Hills and commute to 12th South or whatever, it's certainly true that this isn't going to provide a train outside your door that will take you to work. There's still a pretty big benefit though, which is that if we DON't do it you're going to be joined on your commute by thousands of new neighbors trying to get to their thousands of new offices on the same streets that are already full.

Edited October 18, 2017 by AronG

[FromParkAveToTN]

I work from home so how is this going to help me?

I tunnel downtown is a waste. Downtown isn't big enough to justify the expense. If someone can't walk from one end of downtown you the other end, then they are just lazy. 

[nashwatcher]

21 minutes ago, AronG said:

I think there's inherently going to be a lot of frustration with any new transit plan if you approach this from the standpoint of "Today I live in X and I work in Y and this doesn't help me." All of the places we currently live and work were built very specifically around the needs of our current transportation grid. If you plant a tree it grows toward the sunlight, and all of our development in the last 70 years has taken place in that environment.

But now there are a million more people headed our way and there's no way to get them enough "sunlight" on the street grid. The primary undertaking of this transit system (and the extra $100-200 million/year in taxes) is to provide a new backbone around which future development can grow. It will benefit some people's current transportation needs, but the bigger goal is to allow our city to continue to grow without devolving into gridlock. If you live in Green Hills and commute to 12th South or whatever, it's certainly true that this isn't going to provide a train outside your door that will take you to work. There's still a pretty big benefit though, which is that if we don't do it you're going to have about a thousand more neighbors trying to get to their thousands of new offices on the same streets that are already full.

My thoughts exactly. I live in an area that won't directly benefit from this plan initially, but indirectly it will (alleviating future traffic from over development). It encourages development in other areas and gives us a mass transit backbone to work off of for decades to come.

I think the tunnel will turn out to be a huge asset long term and is a great way to connect the different lines.

[Flatrock]

7 minutes ago, FromParkAveToTN said:

I work from home so how is this going to help me?

I tunnel downtown is a waste. Downtown isn't big enough to justify the expense. If someone can't walk from one end of downtown you the other end, then they are just lazy. 

Thank you. An injection of comedic relief at this time feels pretty good. Well done.

[Pdt2f]

I think the plan itself is fine, although I have qualms about the light rail and subway tunnel as far as proper use of taxpayer funds. Here are my two primary complaints/worries:

1. Projects this large tend to run over cost estimates, and I'm worried that the cost overruns will cripple city finances in the future. Mayor Barry can make grand plans for transit that will happen 20 years from now, but by that time it won't be her problem when her successors have to deal with a $20 billion boondoggle with no source of funding. Before I vote for this I'll have to be assured that the finances are sound. 

2. I know this isn't the Mayor's problem, it's more regional, but I really wish we'd start some more legs of the Music City Star- primarily to M'boro, Williamson County, Clarksville, and Sumner County. I realize this could be primarily an issue with the surrounding counties avoiding paying their share but I think mass transit to the surrounding counties would do the most to lessen traffic problems in Nashville. This issue wouldn't keep me from voting for the Mayor's plan, though, since it's a regional issue and not a city issue. 

[Rockatansky]

14 hours ago, Pdt2f said:

significantly decrease congestion

Transit doesn't significantly reduce congestion. It does  make it easier and more efficient for the average citizen to maneuver around town - if they use transit.

58 minutes ago, FromParkAveToTN said:

I work from home so how is this going to help me?

You're asking the wrong question. Instead ask - how does this benefit the community I live in?

29 minutes ago, Pdt2f said:

the surrounding counties avoiding paying their share

The suburban counties are more than welcome to participate in the plan, if they pass a funding resolution and referendum.