Legacy Union (former Charlotte Observer redevelopment)

[DonkeyKong]

9 hours ago, JeanClt said:

What’s interesting is Lincoln Harris has not done a Hospitality/Residential Project, or at least hasn’t highlighted any in its portfolio. Doesn’t even have a section for them. If they were to do something like that they would need to bring another developer in, otherwise it would be a first time as far as I can tell.

Didn’t they do the apartments and the Hampton inn at Phillips place?  They definitely haven’t done much. 

[JRCLT]

Didn’t they do the apartments and the Hampton inn at Phillips place?  They definitely haven’t done much. 

Were they known as The Harris Group before? Or have they always been Lincoln Harris. If the latter then no? Unless Lincoln Harris is part of the “Group” lol not too familiar with all these developers and similar names and their connections.

The Harris Group was master developer:

https://casestudies.uli.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/C028020.pdf

[KJHburg]

9 hours ago, JeanClt said:

What’s interesting is Lincoln Harris has not done a Hospitality/Residential Project, or at least hasn’t highlighted any in its portfolio. Doesn’t even have a section for them. If they were to do something like that they would need to bring another developer in, otherwise it would be a first time as far as I can tell.

Yes they have not done anything residential but have an affliation with Lincoln Property out of Dallas that has done high rise residential towers.

Lincoln Property Company Apartment Property Management (lincolnapts.com)

[KJHburg]

On 9/4/2022 at 9:35 PM, KJHburg said:

Yes they have not done anything residential but have an affiliation with Lincoln Property out of Dallas that has done high rise residential towers.

Lincoln Property Company Apartment Property Management (lincolnapts.com)

Speaking of Lincoln Property Company and they would be a great partner with LH as they are related in some way anyway.  Here is the new tallest mixed use building underway in Austin.   74 stories with apartments, a hotel and 700K sq of office space in one tall tower 1022 feet tall the new tallest in the city and the state of Texas.

https://www.statesman.com/story/business/real-estate/2022/09/06/austin-waterline-tower-to-be-tallest-building-texas/65467286007/

I have said a mixed use tower of at least hotel rooms and apartments maybe even a few condos would be great at Legacy.  Something like the W Residences, or even Four Seasons Hotel and Residences like in Nashville.   (   https://www.fourseasons.com/nashville/  )  

 

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

Speaking of Lincoln Property Company and they would be a great partner with LH as they are related in some way anyway.  Here is the new tallest mixed use building underway in Austin.   74 stories with apartments, a hotel and 700K sq of office space in one tall tower 1022 feet tall the new tallest in the city and the state of Texas.

https://www.statesman.com/story/business/real-estate/2022/09/06/austin-waterline-tower-to-be-tallest-building-texas/65467286007/

I have said a mixed use tower of at least hotel rooms and apartments maybe even a few condos would be great at Legacy.  Something like the W Residences, or even Four Seasons Hotel and Residences like in Nashville.   (   https://www.fourseasons.com/nashville/  )  

 

Visited Austin this summer and I approve of this move, as building that high is one key way to escape the godawful heat there.  Are Austin and Charlotte still in the same league?

[15895]

17 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Visited Austin this summer and I approve of this move, as building that high is one key way to escape the godawful heat there.  Are Austin and Charlotte still in the same league?

In terms of urbanity/skyline, Austin is ahead & pulling away IMO.  Still in the same league. Rewind 15 years ago, I completely scoffed at the idea of Austin's skyline catching up to Charlotte. 

Austin 2005:

Austin 2022 (And it's got TONS of new high-rises U/C, proposed, etc. including over 1,000 Ft. as some have mentioned.

 

And boy was I wrong to laugh them off as being no more impressive than Winston-Salem. I think one thing that will accelerate the trend is:

 

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

27 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

In terms of urbanity/skyline, Austin is ahead & pulling away IMO.  Still in the same league. Rewind 15 years ago, I completely scoffed at the idea of Austin's skyline catching up to Charlotte. 

Austin 2005:

Austin 2022 (And it's got TONS of new high-rises U/C, proposed, etc. including over 1,000 Ft. as some have mentioned.

 

And boy was I wrong to laugh them off as being no more impressive than Winston-Salem. I think one thing that will accelerate the trend is:

 

The area of densifying urban area in Charlotte is larger and there are more unbuilt areas for Charlotte to grow. Plus the Blue line is much longer than their red line. Austin's current and largest boom started before Charlotte's, so I think there is a chance that Charlotte catches up. The river makes a more dramatic skyline in some ways, but I don't think they are running away with things. Charlotte and Nashville have more room to expand, so smaller buildings for now, but that could change. Charlotte needs to attract MORE HQs however, and being the state capital of a huge state with the flagship university and a huge tech industry helps Austin in that regard, but the state of Texas has more political headwinds. 

[turbocraig]

38 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Austin 2005:

 

 

Whoa, this pic brings back memories!  That pic is from Austin City Limits in 2005 and I was there that year!  Saw the Killers, Franz Ferdinand, and a bunch of others I can't recall now.  But I can recall people passing out just standing there in the crowd because of the Godawful heat.  They started giving water out for free.  Medics constantly making their way through the crowds.  I remember hearing that there were 80K people there that year.  Good times.

[RANYC]

29 minutes ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

The area of densifying urban area in Charlotte is larger and there are more unbuilt areas for Charlotte to grow. Plus the Blue line is much longer than their red line. Austin's current and largest boom started before Charlotte's, so I think there is a chance that Charlotte catches up. The river makes a more dramatic skyline in some ways, but I don't think they are running away with things. Charlotte and Nashville have more room to expand, so smaller buildings for now, but that could change. Charlotte needs to attract MORE HQs however, and being the state capital of a huge state with the flagship university and a huge tech industry helps Austin in that regard, but the state of Texas has more political headwinds. 

Up until now, Charlotte could arguably be declared the winner on an HQ score.  Austin area is only home to 2 Fortune 500 companies (Dell, Oracle), while Charlotte area is home to 8 (BofA, Truist, Duke, Honeywell, Lowe’s, Nucor, Sonic Auto, Commscope).  
 

Not sure how important HQ recruitment will be to skylines going forward, however, given WFH trends and a general rethinking of the value of massive real estate expenditure as integral to the operating model.  Even the latest Austin tower isn’t necessarily a corporate center, but rather a very integrated and mixed use vertical structure.

Edited September 6, 2022 by RANYC

[Reverie39]

Austin definitely is overachieving with these things considering it's smaller than Charlotte. Its skyline (with 1000 footers incoming) and proposed transit plans (including a full underground subway line) are basically unheard of for a city of its size in the modern era as far as I'm aware. I'm not sure how they're able to accomplish all this, but maybe other cities should be learning from them. 

Edit: I was curious so looked it up. There are 7 cities in the US with supertall (1000'+) skyscrapers: NYC, LA, Chicago, Houston, Philadelphia, Atlanta, and San Francisco. All of these cities have a metro population of at least 4.7 million, and that number itself is a bit skewed because SF's metro area doesn't include nearby San Jose. Really I think we can say that no urban area in the US with less than 5-6 million people has any supertalls... and yet Austin, sitting happily at 2.2 million, is getting one? Absolutely wild.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Reverie39

[CLT Development]

Texas is just way easier to build in, and quite frankly, due to their tech industry have way more people that are willing to pay astronomical prices buying into a real estate market that could easily crash because its drastically overvalued.

[videtur quam contuor]

https://twitter.com/NewsLambert/status/1547745727505240065?s=20&t=z1yObifHKkdUaPc2xEtvDg

Edited September 6, 2022 by tarhoosier

[KJHburg]

31 minutes ago, CLT Development said:

Texas is just way easier to build in, and quite frankly, due to their tech industry have way more people that are willing to pay astronomical prices buying into a real estate market that could easily crash because its drastically overvalued.

Amazon, Facebook and Google have signed huge leases in the last few years in Austin including Googles lease of entire 35 story building downtown that was just recently built.  Austin has tremendous job growth in tech and yes it is getting pricier and pricier but still cheaper than California or other west coast markets.   Apple's huge campus is not anywhere near downtown either as it is straddles the county line to the north.  

Tech companies can sign some big leases even in NC but mainly in the Raleigh Durham market.  We need to continue to attract companies and outposts of tech companies here to Charlotte. 

[RANYC]

On 9/6/2022 at 1:42 PM, KJHburg said:

Amazon, Facebook and Google have signed huge leases in the last few years in Austin including Googles lease of entire 35 story building downtown that was just recently built.  Austin has tremendous job growth in tech and yes it is getting pricier and pricier but still cheaper than California or other west coast markets.   Apple's huge campus is not anywhere near downtown either as it is straddles the county line to the north.  

Tech companies can sign some big leases even in NC but mainly in the Raleigh Durham market.  We need to continue to attract companies and outposts of tech companies here to Charlotte. 

I thoroughly enjoy your posts KJHburg, but I'm not convinced a 74-story mixed-use tower announcement in Austin is any reason for Charlotte to change its approach or to believe it's failing to attract companies. 

Charlotte is a success story as well.  Getting Honeywell to put its global HQ here was a major win - in fact, a generational one. 

To my untrained eye, Austin and its "sponsors" appear to put substantial effort into building a ton of social capital and raising its brand value through its festivals and music scene, etc.  It's done really well to put some meta-narratives out there.  We should do the same, translating our corporate wins into meta-narratives about Charlotte’s intellectual might, ingenuity, cultural richness and dynamism.

Hitting up Honeywell to write a big check for a mayoral initiative that not even her council is clear on is a wasted opportunity.  But, getting Honeywell and BofA, each of which spend oodles of money considering and investing in startup and growth-stage ventures each year, to perhaps host a version of a "ventures" fair/convention in the QC would be a far more impactful and resonant way to build social capital off their presences.  

Check this out: https://www.honeywell.com/us/en/news/2020/06/the-worlds-highest-performing-quantum-computer-is-here

That's right here in the Queen City.  How about attaching our brand to that innovation.  Perhaps a conference around it.  Bank-rolling a Quantum Center of Excellence or Research Center.  Trying to think big here, even before thinking feasibility.

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by RANYC

[KJHburg]

I just pointing out that Lincoln Property Development an affiliate of Lincoln Harris is developing a tall mixed used tower and maybe they can help LH do  a residential hotel mixed used tower.  

Honeywell was a MAJOR win for Charlotte as it is rare that companies that size move their HQ and I do believe there is more to come with them in terms of buildings here.

[JRCLT]

Up until now, Charlotte could arguably be declared the winner on an HQ score.  Austin area is only home to 2 Fortune 500 companies (Dell, Oracle), while Charlotte area is home to 8 (BofA, Truist, Duke, Honeywell, Lowe’s, Nucor, Sonic Auto, Commscope).  
 
Not sure how important HQ recruitment will be to skylines going forward, however, given WFH trends and a general rethinking of the value of massive real estate expenditure as integral to the operating model.  Even the latest Austin tower isn’t necessarily a corporate center, but rather a very integrated and mixed use vertical structure.

Most of those towers are residential/hospitality anyways. HQ doesn’t have much to do with it like you suspect. Tech though does! Tech jobs pay well and allows for more people to afford condos which is also what’s coming up in high rises there too. Office is put in on some of these projects but a majority is overwhelmingly residential.

[APS89294]

Had to triple take this thread to see if I was mistakenly in Austin's UP. Legacy Union? What's that?

Edited September 6, 2022 by APS89294

[15895]

5 minutes ago, APS89294 said:

Has to triple take this thread to see if I was mistakenly in Austin's UP. Legacy Union? What's that?

Few office towers with a roped-off Astro turf court yard.  

[RANYC]

14 hours ago, APS89294 said:

Had to triple take this thread to see if I was mistakenly in Austin's UP. Legacy Union? What's that?

If you'd spent time walking around Legacy Union at ground level, and staring into its vacant retail spaces, you'd understand why we'd rather talk around Legacy Union or talk about other places that might inspire a change in direction for Legacy Union, than talk about the complex itself.

Edited September 7, 2022 by RANYC

[AltNative]

Is Lincoln Harris totally inept at leasing retail spaces or is it something else? Look across the street--an incredible slate of tenants have filled the bottom of ally. Does lincoln harris really just not give a damn?

[RANYC]

10 minutes ago, AltNative said:

Is Lincoln Harris totally inept at leasing retail spaces or is it something else? Look across the street--an incredible slate of tenants have filled the bottom of ally. Does lincoln harris really just not give a damn?

I could be totally wrong, but I wonder if long-term, ground-level retail tenants are reluctant to sign until a development complex “settles down.”  In other words, as long as a significant portion of LU is or will soon be a large-scale construction project, tenants targeted hold off on an investment in the site.

[CTiger]

41 minutes ago, AltNative said:

Is Lincoln Harris totally inept at leasing retail spaces or is it something else? Look across the street--an incredible slate of tenants have filled the bottom of ally. Does lincoln harris really just not give a damn?

Would you want to open a business in any of those spaces?  I don't think its a big mystery.   Lincoln Harris set up their retail like they were trying to meet a quota rather than trying to build spaces where retail could thrive. 

I think the parcels pending development have the most promise though since they have frontage along Stonewall, so I'm (pessimistically) withholding judgment. 

[AltNative]

36 minutes ago, CTiger said:

Would you want to open a business in any of those spaces? 

Of course not! I just want  to inspire lively discussion on how unattractive those retail spaces are

[15895]

1 hour ago, CTiger said:

Would you want to open a business in any of those spaces?  I don't think its a big mystery.   Lincoln Harris set up their retail like they were trying to meet a quota rather than trying to build spaces where retail could thrive. 

I think the parcels pending development have the most promise though since they have frontage along Stonewall, so I'm (pessimistically) withholding judgment. 

They totally failed on the ground level IMO. And I don't think they care nor ever contemplated the retail units being anything but laundry, sundries and maybe some upscale restaurants for the work crowd. They built great corporate office towers  with a Fortune 500 HQ, with a major Fortune 50 tenant, a Fortune 1000 tenant, etc. So I doubt they have any regrets or view their project as anything less than wildly successful.

Even if they could just break up some of the retail units by colors, it would've been something. Ideally they would've split the parcel up further with a road between Tryon and Mint and wider sidewalks. With the pure scale of the project, it could've been a legit destination area if the ground level was done right (and IMO could've been more attractive for upscale hotel/condo towers or anything residential) and diverse retail tenants. Would've been nice to have say a Diner near the stadium, things that would appeal to a stadium-y and leisure crowd in addition to the 9-5 crowd like the below (Diner on the bottom with a more corporate-y appealing bar on 2nd floor)

It also would've been nice to have an entertainment venue similar to a nicer version (or geared towards the 30+ crowd version) of the Filmore or places that have live music etc. Obviously venues that would be fun and appealing but still classy or nice enough to not be to out of place with a Bank tower on top.

But I think at this point, the development is what it is and what you've see so far is what you're going to get. As some will say (though I wont because I don't think it's a one-or-the-other issue).... It's better than nothing and it brought jobs to the region so. There's that. And it makes for a pretty skyline. Though it could've created great synergy with Crescent projects if they did the street level similar to Crescent's developments. But the dye has already been cast on this one. And from an office development perspective, it'll likely continue to be a cash cow and success for Lincoln Harris.

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[BJKM]

Update from yesterday