Virginia Beach Arena (Cancelled)

[chris722]

Is it just me, or the average person doesn't get the vision of the scope of this project because we don't have a professional team lined up. I'm like, we don't need a team because we will have a lot of major concerts there! A lot of naysayers on this project.

I'm also sick of people wanting to relocate it to Military Circle. Norfolk already has it's hands full between the outlet, waterside, new grocery stores and that swedish furniture store, can't remember the name. Plus there is a mortgage company building at Military Circle. What more do people want?

I do understand the need for light rail, and I would love to see it go through Ghent, but I can't say that Norfolk has been resting on its laurels.

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[tallguy81"]

I heard we might have an NBA team.

[BFG]

27 minutes ago, tallguy81" said:

I heard we might have an NBA team.

Where'd you hear that?

Edited March 16, 2017 by BFG

[tallguy81"]

I don't know if I can say who that team might be.  I do not know for sure if we are getting a team here.

[baobabs727]

On 3/15/2017 at 8:12 PM, chris722 said:

Wait a minute. I knew it was going to be built. Eventually. But now you're telling me that there will also be a professional team coming to Hampton Roads?

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 Who is "telling" you ?

 

On 3/15/2017 at 8:17 PM, streetsahead said:

Nope, it's just a bunch of speculation. Nothing is confirmed.

What speculation? Where?

 

2 hours ago, tallguy81" said:

I heard we might have an NBA team.

Heard it from whom? 

As for the NBA,  extremely highly unlikely. The facility is not ready-made in design for the NBA and there is no current funding for the couple hundred million $$ in upgrades that would be needed.  Additionally, there are other cities ahead of us. Way ahead.

Edited March 17, 2017 by baobabs727

[tallguy81"]

 Seattle is not ahead of us.  Louisville would be competing with major college basketball teams within their state.  Pittsburgh does not want the NBA.  Vegas might be the only city ahead of us.

[tallguy81"]

 Seattle is not ahead of us.  Louisville would be competing with major college basketball teams within their state.  Pittsburgh does not want the NBA.  Vegas might be the only city ahead of us.

The facility has yet-to-be-built so it could probably be built to be NBA ready at its completion.

[BFG]

Looking at that list Inside Business put out last week, we're "behind" Seattle, Mexico City and Louisville.

Seattle's arena situation is even worse than ours was. They'd take a step forward and two steps back.
I don't see Mexico City working for a number of reasons.
Louisville is much more of a college town than it was in the 70s, when the Colonels were big. If you want to factor in close teams, Indianapolis is only about an hour and a half away. That might be the biggest issue.
Vegas is a maybe, with them getting NHL. But, they're rumored to get the Raiders, and I just don't see them getting three teams that quickly.

I could see a combination of Seattle, Kansas City and us, two out of those three...obviously Seattle and KC make more sense, but small town teams have done well in the NBA, and they recently seem to favor cities with no prior teams (OKC, Memphis; HR is larger than both). It's a longshot, but far from impossible, esp. when you consider we have a basketball history as well with the Squires.

[tallguy81"]

Virginia Beach has probably more tourism than Kansas City

[TNinVB]

Glad to hear this is happening!! I'm a long time lurker to the forum and have lived in VB since 2003. I am originally from Nashville and spend most of my time in that forum. I am happy to see development picking up in the area and look forward to seeing the arena rise. Like I have posted before, the Bridgestone Arena being built in Nashville back in 96 helped spark what downtown is today. I hope the same happens for the area VB where the arena will be built and perhaps  a professional sports team will be next. Heck, who would have ever thought the NHL would go to Nashville when it did. Now if we could get a new high-rise in the area. What do you all think the possibility of that ever happening will be?

Edited March 17, 2017 by TNinVB

[BFG]

I think the high-rise would be along the strip (is the height ban still in place?), Town Center or downtown Norfolk.

As for a team, I didn't think this was the kind of place that could realistically get an Ikea before a few other places, so that's why I'll never say never.

[baobabs727]

3 hours ago, tallguy81" said:

 Seattle is not ahead of us.  Louisville would be competing with major college basketball teams within their state.  Pittsburgh does not want the NBA.  Vegas might be the only city ahead of us.

The three recently quoted "experts" by local media outlets have indicated that we are either not on the map at all...or we are fourth.  That combined with the cost of a franchise at over $1 billion,  the lack of an ownership group,  and the  unfunded needed upgrades, and I'm sticking with "not right now."

I also noted that you declined to answer my question. LOL.

Note:  Nobody is saying "never" or "impossible."  I don't know where some of you are getting that vibe.  This line of dialogue started because there were people here saying that they heard we were getting a team and then discussing some speculation re: the same that doesn't actually seem to exist.  Trying to get to the bottom of it all.  So far I don't see any smoke...much less fire.

Edited March 17, 2017 by baobabs727

[carolinaboy]

 US Cities Without NBA or NHL Larger Than Virginia Beach

San Diego (California is littered with NBA and NHL teams)

Austin (Texas has 3 NBA and 1 NHL)

Jacksonville, Fl (Florida has 2 NBA and 2 NHL)

Ft Worth, (Texas has 3 NBA and 1 NHL)

Seattle (Better choice than VB)

El Paso (Texas has 3 NBA and 1 NHL)

Las Vegas (Better choice than VB)

Baltimore (Too close to NBA and NHL in Washington DC and Philadelphia)

Louisville (Tough sell in NCAA basketball state)

Albuquerque (No way)

Tucson (Neighboring Phoenix has NBA and NHL)

Fresno (California is littered with NBA and NHL teams)

Kansas City (No NBA in Missouri, 1 NHL in St Louis)

Long Beach (California is littered with NBA and NHL teams)

Mesa (Neighboring Phoenix has NBA and NHL)

Colorado Springs (Denver has NBA and NHL)

San Francisco (Neighboring Oakland has NBA and San Jose has NHL)

 

US Cities With NBA or NHL Smaller Than Virginia Beach

Raleigh (NHL Hurricanes)

Miami (NBA Heat, NHL Panthers)

Oakland (NBA Golden State)

Minneapolis (NBA Timberwolves, NHL Wild)

New Orleans (NBA Pelicans)

Cleveland (NBA Cavaliers)

Tampa (NHL LIghtning)

Anaheim (NHL Ducks)

St Louis (NHL Blues)

Pittsburgh (NHL Penguins)

Orlando (NBA Magic)

Buffalo (NHL Sabres)

Salt Lake City (NBA Jazz)

[tallguy81"]

I just saw on esg's website that groundbreaking for the arena is set for this summer.  My source was only speculating that we might have an NBA team.

[HRVT]

On 3/17/2017 at 11:59 AM, carolinaboy said:

 US Cities Without NBA or NHL Larger Than Virginia Beach

San Diego (California is littered with NBA and NHL teams)

Austin (Texas has 3 NBA and 1 NHL)

Jacksonville, Fl (Florida has 2 NBA and 2 NHL)

Ft Worth, (Texas has 3 NBA and 1 NHL)

Seattle (Better choice than VB)

El Paso (Texas has 3 NBA and 1 NHL)

Las Vegas (Better choice than VB)

Baltimore (Too close to NBA and NHL in Washington DC and Philadelphia)

Louisville (Tough sell in NCAA basketball state)

Albuquerque (No way)

Tucson (Neighboring Phoenix has NBA and NHL)

Fresno (California is littered with NBA and NHL teams)

Kansas City (No NBA in Missouri, 1 NHL in St Louis)

Long Beach (California is littered with NBA and NHL teams)

Mesa (Neighboring Phoenix has NBA and NHL)

Colorado Springs (Denver has NBA and NHL)

San Francisco (Neighboring Oakland has NBA and San Jose has NHL)

 

US Cities With NBA or NHL Smaller Than Virginia Beach

Raleigh (NHL Hurricanes)

Miami (NBA Heat, NHL Panthers)

Oakland (NBA Golden State)

Minneapolis (NBA Timberwolves, NHL Wild)

New Orleans (NBA Pelicans)

Cleveland (NBA Cavaliers)

Tampa (NHL LIghtning)

Anaheim (NHL Ducks)

St Louis (NHL Blues)

Pittsburgh (NHL Penguins)

Orlando (NBA Magic)

Buffalo (NHL Sabres)

Salt Lake City (NBA Jazz)

Good info. As for using the NHL as a measuring stick, I think that's hard to do. Hockey is a little bit of a niche sport (HUGE in the north and not that big in the south). That's a big reason why the Sabres are successful in Buffalo yet Atlanta can't hold on to a team. That's another part of the reason I don't see Virginia Beach getting an NHL team (the Admirals drawing among the worst in ECHL also hurts).

Now to the subject at hand, which is the NBA. The NBA is fairly well established. Seattle and Las Vegas are clearly better destinations. Kansas City probably is as well IMO, and if I'm not mistaken, their arena is closer to NBA ready than will be the one in VB (which basically still needs another quarter billion dollars in investment if a team comes). That's three teams ahead of us right there. Given that relocation happens maybe once every few years, that puts VB at least 5 years away (still exciting if a team could come in that timeframe). That said, what about Pittsburgh? What about St Louis? The cities themselves may be smaller than VB, but the metro areas aren't. 

Outside of population, you have to take other factors into account. How much of VB's population is transient and how much of it are homegrown folks with hometown pride? The military folks still may go to a game or two... when their teams come to town but not very many are going to adopt the VB team as their own. What is the population of Hampton Roads of people who have been in the area 10+ years for instance versus those who are only here for a relatively short amount of time (ie: less than five years)? How does this number compare to other peer sized (or smaller) areas such as Buffalo,Providence (mentioned rarely, but is actually a large area), Milwaukee, and Jacksonville (also a big military presence, I know)?

[BFG]

I think an easier way to look at this is how many people live here when you take away military. We're at 1.7, 1.8M now; I think if you take away military, we're probably at about 1.5 or so, which is about the size of Oklahoma City and Memphis, give or take 100K.

This is part of the reason a merger with Richmond (complicated as that would be) is being proposed. It gives us a "population" of 3M, at least on paper. To me, that's why the Oceanfront wouldn't be the best place if they want a pro team. The drive is already pretty lengthy for most of the 757, let alone from RVA, which would probably account for no more than 20% of the total attendance. It would more than likely be the "Virginia ___" to make it a statewide representative.

I imagine if this were to ever happen, naming rights definitely come into play to offset some of the 250M in upgrades.

[Virginia City]

1 hour ago, HRVT said:

Good info. As for using the NHL as a measuring stick, I think that's hard to do. Hockey is a little bit of a niche sport (HUGE in the north and not that big in the south). That's a big reason why the Sabres are successful in Buffalo yet Atlanta can't hold on to a team. That's another part of the reason I don't see Virginia Beach getting an NHL team (the Admirals drawing among the worst in ECHL also hurts).

Now to the subject at hand, which is the NBA. The NBA is fairly well established. Seattle and Las Vegas are clearly better destinations. Kansas City probably is as well IMO, and if I'm not mistaken, their arena is closer to NBA ready than will be the one in VB (which basically still needs another quarter billion dollars in investment if a team comes). That's three teams ahead of us right there. Given that relocation happens maybe once every few years, that puts VB at least 5 years away (still exciting if a team could come in that timeframe). That said, what about Pittsburgh? What about St Louis? The cities themselves may be smaller than VB, but the metro areas aren't. 

Outside of population, you have to take other factors into account. How much of VB's population is transient and how much of it are homegrown folks with hometown pride? The military folks still may go to a game or two... when their teams come to town but not very many are going to adopt the VB team as their own. What is the population of Hampton Roads of people who have been in the area 10+ years for instance versus those who are only here for a relatively short amount of time (ie: less than five years)? How does this number compare to other peer sized (or smaller) areas such as Buffalo,Providence (mentioned rarely, but is actually a large area), Milwaukee, and Jacksonville (also a big military presence, I know)?

Atlanta is not a big sports town, the Hawks and the Braves have struggled with attendance even when the latter was one of the best in the league. Minor league support does not mean anything, case in point the Seattle Sounders; averaged 3400 in 08 their last season in D3 and 30k in 2009, last year they averaged 42k.

The NBA is a non starter. They do not have the available talent to expand and there are no teams that are looking to relocate currently. Either way, Seattle is the best bet but don't have an arena or a deal for one. Las Vegas is the shiny new toy but with an NHL team and a possible NFL team how much would be too much too soon. KC has the arena but with heavy hitters like the Royals and the Chiefs is there enough deposable income for another team? St. Louis could work now that the Rams are gone.

I'm a huge Nationals fan but that didn't limit me to only going to see them come to town when I lived in San Diego. I went to Padres games all the time because I like baseball and even became a Padres fan, still follow them to this day. I don't see why anybody in the military wouldn't be the same way.

Any team could work as long as it has good marketing

[HRVT]

Minor league support isn't exactly irrelevant. Though I think it could be argued that one reason support for the Admirals sucks is that they have stepped down a level. But even in the final few years of the AHL, attendance wasn't booming. For a niche sport like hockey, that is going to make NHL folks wary about the support a team in this area would have. But then again, good marketing is key and the Sounders are a great example of that.

Also, you can't even remotely compare Seattle's overall market to VB's. Seattle not only has a FAR greater population, but that population has far greater income (Seattle is #14 nationally in median household income at $50,733 while Hampton Roads comes in #81 nationally at $42,448). I know you weren't necessarily saying that NHL hockey would sell out in Hampton Roads. But great support for the Admirals could be a selling point for an NHL team to move into a market that is of borderline major-league size whereas poor support is one more strike against the region.

12 hours ago, BFG said:

I think an easier way to look at this is how many people live here when you take away military. We're at 1.7, 1.8M now; I think if you take away military, we're probably at about 1.5 or so, which is about the size of Oklahoma City and Memphis, give or take 100K.

This is part of the reason a merger with Richmond (complicated as that would be) is being proposed. It gives us a "population" of 3M, at least on paper. To me, that's why the Oceanfront wouldn't be the best place if they want a pro team. The drive is already pretty lengthy for most of the 757, let alone from RVA, which would probably account for no more than 20% of the total attendance. It would more than likely be the "Virginia ___" to make it a statewide representative.

I imagine if this were to ever happen, naming rights definitely come into play to offset some of the 250M in upgrades.

A merger with Richmond would be absolutely absurd. To get from Southeast VB to the western part of Richmond is about two and a half hours. That would be like Washington DC and Philly merging into one market. Or Jacksonville and Orlando.

[metalman]

They need to invest in proper parking garages and ingress/egress from the interstate so it doesn't gridlock the oceanfront when there is a event.

[HRVT]

6 hours ago, NFKjeff said:

I'm not sure where you are getting that VB is investing a half billion dollars on this deal. USM is investing $70M in equity and is borrowing $150M for the $220M cost of the arena. The city is making an investment in infrastructure, much of which is needed anyway, and which will be used in support of future development in the vacinity of the arena. 

The city is immediately investing about $80 million in infrastructure. They are also paying the arena developers a share of ALL hotel tax revenue (whether tied to the arena or not). There are other tax rebates that the developers will get along the way that essentially ensure that they get their money back even if the arena remains completely empty. The eventual cost isn't quite known, but from the tax revenue forked over, to the tax rebates, that cost could end up being anywhere from $200 million to $476 million

On the surface, the deal looks relatively risk-free to the city. But the reality is that the way the deal is structured, the developer is taking on VERY little risk and has transferred that risk to the city. How anyone can be in favor of this deal is beyond me.

For what it's worth, I'll admit some of my info is a bit outdated. If anyone has anything to show the costs, I'm open to that. But last I read, it was $76 million in infrastructure improvements that are paid up front, then $8.5 million kicked back to the developer every year. Then VB forfeits 1/8 of it's total hotel tax revenue city-wide (even when there are no events going on). Has any of this been made more favorable to the city?

Edited March 19, 2017 by HRVT

[Urbanlooker]

On Fri Feb 03 2017 at 11:30 AM, Norva757 said:

55 minutes ago, HRVT said:

 But last I read, it was $76 million in infrastructure improvements that are paid up front, then $8.5 million kicked back to the developer every year. Then VB forfeits 1/8 of it's total hotel tax revenue city-wide (even when there are no events going on). Has any of this been made more favorable to the city?

For some reason I can't get rid of this other quote. But 1/8 of the total hotel tax I believe is wrong I thought it was just 1% of  it or something like that. The 76M I believe is correct for the cities infrastructure improvements.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Urbanlooker

[HRVT]

48 minutes ago, Urbanlooker said:

 

I had once read 1% of hotel tax revenue. However, it's actually the top 1% of the 8% hotel tax. In other words, 1/8 of hotel tax revenue. And outside of attracting a major sports team, I can't imagine that concession paying off for Virginia Beach as major concerts aren't going to sell THAT many hotel rooms as the vast majority of those that go will be from two hours away or closer, thus not needing a hotel. The NCAA Tournament would sell a TON of rooms, but that is an event that would come to VB maybe 3 or 4 times within a 20 year period. The ACC Tournament would sell hotel rooms as well, but they might not ever choose VB (and if they did, it's doubtful they play more than one or two tournaments there).

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/category/nba/virginia-beach-arena/

[Norva757]

I'm wondering if this will help push to have light rail to the oceanfront...I hope so

[baobabs727]

Light Rail is dead in VB.

[Norva757]

I bet it will be brought up again and it should be brought up...so many people that voted against couldn't give a good reasoning as why they did not want it