chris722

Took long enough. I think Dayton had Meijer like 15 years ago.

I'm confused. I thought this was over with, so there's still hope?

People are excited about it. That effort to force a referendum failed, so it is what it is. I agree that Norfolk, Portsmouth, Newport News, and Hampton are legit cities. People always want to compare Norfolk to Richmond and state that Richmond is more of a city than Norfolk. I can see the arguments both ways. I think that Norfolk is urban for this region, but maybe not so much for other regions, and definitely not by West Coast or East Coast standards. But I've been in plenty of Midwestern cities with density similar or less than Norfolk, and it is not a deal breaker for me. You're right about Midwestern cities with casinos and how those economies are different. For one Cleveland and Detroit aren't defined by tourism. For another they're larger cities. Fair enough.

Cool. Amazon has done this with a lot of the dead malls in Ohio would love to see this here.

So they're really going to redevelop that area. And not just study it for 15 years?

A casino isn't going to do anything for Norfolk. Won't do anything for Portsmouth either. A lot of cities built casinos and they still suck. Did casinos help Cleveland or Detroit? In any meaningful way; I understand those cities have little gentrification action going on but did the casinos make any meaningful impact on their urban areas? Move out of Norfolk if you don't want to be in a city? This is Hampton Roads, having a city that is a suburb that is rural is the entire point of being here I thought you already knew?

Still no progress just an empty lot at this point.

Interesting. I did not know that was up for sale, nor that it had been purchased. Should be interesting. What about the flooding down there? That entire area needs to be raised. Maybe we'll get a new parking garage out of the deal.

Interesting. First time I've ever heard this suggested. What are the obvious reasons?

That reminds me of something one would see in Queens or the Bronx.

Norfolk and Portsmouth are essentially the same city. I often wonder about Newport News and Hampton, but I'm not familiar enough with the Peninsula to make that suggestion. I don't see Virginia Beach or Chesapeake merging with anyone else. Technically Virginia Beach is at a point where it does not need to; already the largest city in Virginia by population and, has the potential to be the largest county by population as well if it were to move in a more progressive direction and stop being so suburban. Nothing for Virginia Beach to gain; yes, one could have a larger city if it were to merge with Norfolk but these are residents who, historically, wanted a suburban life outside of Norfolk to begin with so I don't see them going back to that, even if it is name only. It's like a Toronto vs Vancouver thing. With both cities, the Achilles heel is the Southside. No one wants to see South Virginia Beach or South Chesapeake developed. I'm not so sure that either necessarily needs to be developed into their Northern counterpart but I don't see that changing in either city in our lifetimes. And Williamsburg is never going to merge. You would have an easier time making a city out of James CIty County, puling a "Virginia Beach" and call that Williamsburg than you would getting it to merge with anything else on the Peninsula. There's nothing wrong with Hampton Roads. No different than New England the region just needs a defining city like they have Boston. One of the reasons why people don't know what Hampton Roads, or the Mid-Atlantic, for example, is because there are no real defining things about it. Like people throw DC and Baltimore into the North; apologists say Mid-Atlantic, it is a backhanded way of defining Northern Virginia but then that same crowd does not want into include Hampton Roads in that dynamic. It is maddening. So Mid-Atlantic will never take off for that reason. Some people in DC/Baltimore want to be in the Mid-Atlantic and some people in DC/Baltimore want to be up North. So go figure.

Any of those 5 scenarios work for me, as any of them would result in a larger city, thus more tax revenue due to a higher population, and maybe something could get done around here.

Days of annexation are far behind us. All standing cities annexed what they could, and it is what it is. I am told that a merger would have to happen at the state level. Sort of how New York City came about. I am all for merging cities on the Southside, and another merger among cities on the Peninsula. I am not for merging all seven cities of Hampton Roads. I think that to do so is untenable and entirely too much. The Peninsula has it's own personality, and the Southside has another. I see no real benefit in bringing the two together. I doubt that Chesapeake would merge with anyone. Chesapeake is where people that do not want to be bothered with the experiment that is Hampton Roads go. Especially Southern Chesapeake. I could see Virginia Beach and Norfolk merging. Culturally, a merger, at the very least, of some of the more affluent areas of Chesapeake and Virginia Beach, all of which are conterminous anyway, makes sense. Let Norfolk pick up the scraps, reclaim areas like South Norfolk and those areas that border Virginia Beach. Norfolk could get up to around 300,000, maybe 350,000, best case scenario. Combined Virginia Beach and Chesapeake, or what is left of those areas, would easily reach 600,000 or more. But the reality is that affluent areas, in the United States, simply are not as big as any combination of any of the counties or boroughs in Hampton Roads. What happened in the past, is that we created enormous cities, but the majority of the city was still poor. Look at New York City; Manhattan and Brooklyn, that makes a lot of sense. The other boroughs, not so much; even though those other boroughs have affluent neighborhoods if you were to look at it, I mean really look at it, Manhattan and Brooklyn were the only standing cities. The rest of that is just urbanized farmland. That is the issue I have with merging all seven cities. All you're doing is making Suffolk or Chesapeake out to be the new Queens, or the new Bronx. Virginia Beach acquires even more wealth and becomes the Brooklyn of the area. Norfolk is the new Manhattan. The best one can hope for is that Norfolk can reclaim South Norfolk. I don't think that Chesapeake really wants it anymore. The elephant in the room is that no one wants Portsmouth. Norfolk and Portsmouth should merge. And Virginia Beach and Chesapeake should merge. I think that this is the least controversial option. And maybe Hampton and Newport News. Leave Suffolk and Williamsburg the way that they are. Hampton was a better situation but no more, after Newport News went about the business of dismantling their public housing. Same as what will happen when Norfolk dismantles theirs; whoever left Portsmouth public housing and went over to Norfolk will probably end up back in Portsmouth again. We already know that it is going to happen. Norfolk is only going to get another few thousand people into the city once they start building up where those housing projects exist. Plus they said that they were going to create lakes where the flooding is insufferable. This may create a shift towards Midtown, or Uptown, whatever, with the density, which I am all for but that also creates a situation where Norfolk becomes even less affordable than it is right now. Mergers increase population, but they also amplify problems. This is one of the ways in which cities like Chicago and New York found themselves in the position that they are in (concerning disparities in wealth and poverty). The last thing we need is a mini Compton, East New York, or South Central, in Hampton Roads.

And I agree. One of the reasons why people so desperately wanted the second Amazon headquarters built here. Even though 50,000 workers is a drop in the bucket, it can disrupt the auxiliary situations in Hampton Roads and cause us to grow in ways that are not as easy to connect to the presence of Amazon's workers. But a distribution center would also be great. I like what Amazon did with that abandoned mall outside of the Cleveland metro. So far that has not happened. The outlet in Norfolk is a great example of how that does not happen here. Light rail is another. On the other hand, if Norfolk and Virginia Beach put up their money Virginia Beach could have scored that arena. Virginia Beach did not want to take that risk on by themselves, and so it did not happen. That is how things are done in Hampton Roads. One city goes out on a limb and all seven cities benefit. There is enough money around here for so many things, but not enough money in any one city to accomplish much of anything. Most people who vote, are "not in my backyard" and do not mind getting something for free without paying anything. A prime example of that is Chesapeake. It is what it is.

Why doesn't Pittsburgh want an NBA team? Sent from my Z831 using Tapatalk

Is Ghent a desirable urban environment? Seems like the Brooklyn of the area.

I actually prefer NYC, because it is more the entire area, save Staten Island, whereas Chicago its pretty much downtown and that's it. Plus I think that Chicago is a confusing city to get around; lack of a grid like you have in NYC, and the trains are all overhead for the most part. Not to mention Chicago's flooding. All of that aside though I think Chicago is more stunning when it comes to architecture. People are a lot nicer, more laid back in Chicago as well. Definitely a different pace, more laid back energy in Chicago. But if I had to choose one or the other for living, I would have to go with NYC, because Chicago just has too many problems with crime, taxes all over the place, infrastructure, etc. Chicago feels like a much larger version of your typical Midwestern city. I still felt like I was back in Ohio, just in a denser, more vertical, area. Not to mention the awful Midwestern weather where it can still get cold in the middle of the summer. Still glad I checked it out for what its worth. Money goes further in Chicago but that is changing fast. If you're going to do it may as well go all out in NYC.

I haven't returned to Waterside since it reopened.

Is Downtown Norfolk more desirable now than it was twenty years ago?

I don't see why this couldn't happen. Definitely would happen before a merger with Virginia Beach.

Chicago is a beautiful city. But there aren't too many cities with that type of architecture though. Definitely not too many with that type of density, particularly in the Midwest.

I'm originally from Akron, OH. I like to frequent development forums and anything interesting about Hampton Roads. That's pretty much it. No degree or anything. I've been here about 10 years. Love/hate relationship with the area, but I usually feel that way about every place I've lived/visited. Just, reasons, I guess. This is a nice area though. Just not a very exciting one. Not sure that it really has to be though sometimes people that complain aren't that interesting themselves, so it is what it is.

I'll take an additional light rail line within the next 15 years. I've learned not to ask for much. I would also like to see 20 high rise residential developments in Norfolk before I die. I don't care if they're public/private partnerships or how it gets done, it is just something I would like to see. Get rid of the housing projects downtown and give us a downtown to be proud of. No reason why we can't have what cities like Cleveland and Columbus take for granted. Enough people around here to make that sort of thing happen. I honestly don't care which city it is, I just assume it will be Norfolk, for obvious reasons. I just want a dense experience, like what you see up in DC. But without the height limits. Some people want NYC, especially over at City-Data, I don't need all of that but I would like a thick, unavoidable urban area, for those who want it, in Hampton Roads. Downtown Norfolk is the closest thing we have to that. I'm also curious to see if Virginia Beach's 2040 plans will ever happen. Or even their 50 year plan. That looks really cool, like a neighborhood in Miami or something. BFG mentioned a TRUE expansion of Town Center, to fill in all of the blight in Pembroke. Finally, someone knows what I'm talking about. Town Center should melt into the existing areas, not stand out like a sore thumb. Like downtown areas do in most cities. I think it will eventually happen, but the money probably isn't there yet. Virginia Beach's future plans do call for that but slowly, over a very long period of time. There is a reason why people aren't developing on the land. Town Center will probably expand all the way to WalMart on one side and perhaps either up to Green Run on the other side. They should start building over there where K Mart is instead of finding another tenant for that property. A nice mid rise complex. I'm doubtful that will happen but it is on my wish list.

In 150 years. It will happen naturally as both areas expand out; reminds me of Northeastern Ohio, or Southwestern Ohio; it eventually happened on its own but there wasn't anything anyone could do on purpose to bring that about. And both areas are still challenged economically. There just isn't any logical reason why Hampton Roads would experience 20% growth over a similar amount of time. We're lucky if we can maintain 2% growth year over year for the foreseeable future. I'll take 3 million by 2060. Conservative estimate.

I don't think so. Norfolk and Virginia Beach do not have anything in common other than what you've already mentioned. The people are entirely different. The scene is entirely different. Norfolk aspires to be like other port cities, Portland, Seattle, Baltimore, etc Virginia Beach does not have anything in common with that aesthetic. Virginia Beach and Chesapeake can attain Norfolk's population density, and I actually believe that they will surpass it over time, but the look and feel is something entirely different. Totally different energy out there than what you have in Norfolk. As far as South Norfolk, it was its own city before Chesapeake was created out of a merger with that city and the county. They could have allowed Norfolk to annex. They didn't then, and I doubt that they would in the future, even though it is a better look for them than Chesapeake. I have always felt that Chesapeake patronizes South Norfolk, but they don't really care about it. That will always be the urban core of Chesapeake, even though the city will never recognize it as one. I do agree with you about the San Francisco and Oakland comparison. That is Norfolk and Virginia Beach all day every day. Just leave well enough alone, and allow both cities to mature. The real reason why people want the cities to merge is economic. If the seven cities could stand on their own, no one would care about a merger. But since each of the cities are, at best, a piece of the puzzle, there is closure with merging the cities together. Part of my issue with a merger is that you create an unhealthy dependence on the unit in order for the boroughs to thrive. Take New York City for example. The only other "city" you have out of all of those boroughs is Brooklyn. Brooklyn was its own city before the merger. Those other boroughs were rural counties that became urban over time, because of increasing rents in Manhattan. People quickly forget that we have a similar situation here in Hampton Roads. Norfolk became undesirable, for a number of reasons; population density in Norfolk was a lot greater fifty years ago, the area represented the best and the worst of an urban experience in Virginia. So people left areas like Norfolk, Portsmouth, Newport News, and went into neighboring counties, filled out those areas, and new cities were formed. And that is the way that it will continue to be around here. People just want Hampton Roads to become one city so they'll get their professional sports, or maybe Taylor Swift will come here for a change. I don't really think it is for a genuine concern for the area. The area is entirely too large, actually larger than New York, and it wouldn't create what people think it would. You'd end up with an experience more like Chicago or Los Angeles. Look at how those areas annexed over the years, and consolidated into a single city. Los Angeles is still accused of being suburban, despite evidence to the contrary. They do have an interesting entertainment industry, as a lot of professional sports teams, and they definitely have the concerts and other stuff that we would like to have here but they also have something that is hard to come by in this area; money. Money is why LA was able to build a great subway system in a rather short period of time. Money is why LA can afford to rebuild downtown in less than a decade, regardless of what type of earthquakes or natural catastrophes they have there. We don't have that type of money here. I'm not even sure if they have it like that in Northern Virginia. Chicago is getting 52 new skyscrapers in an incredibly small amount of time. We have the population to support that type of development here, but we don't have the money to make that work. I'll be happy if we get light rail throughout Hampton Roads before I die. I'm thinking like, at least 10 lines that can take people where they need to go. And I keep my expectations low, not because of a lack of vision, or a lack of cooperation, but because the money just isn't here for those large projects to work. The people who could make it happen are going to vote against it, and the people that really want it are powerless to make it happen. But its better than Ohio, so I continue to stay here until I can position myself to go somewhere else. You said it all with the lower property taxes in Virginia Beach and Chesapeake, which they can afford, for various reasons. Taxes would raise throughout Hampton Roads, people would cry foul, and everyone who could afford to do so would move to North Carolina.