Hampton Roads Military Developments

[vdogg]

er ... so it's a government conspiracy by the bush family to steal virginia's bases?

And the North Carolina bid must be from ... from ... Jesse Helms!! Did you know if you count the number of characters in Jesse Helms's combined name (10) it is the SAME NUMBER as in George Bush's name (also 10!!). The aggregate plus Jeb Bush (7) equals 17, which is January 7th which is CHRISTMAS DAY in the JULIAN CALENDAR!!!

What does this all mean, you ask?!

What I'm saying, is that BRAC is a covert agency run by the CIA, the Bush Family, Jesse Helms, the Republican Party, the Masons, and the Greek Orthodox Church planning on taking over the WORLD!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Don't exaggerate. I was going no where near that far in my conjecture. I was simply stating that it seems to be politics as usual. Believe it or not, political backscratching does exist in this country and happens on all sides of the aisle. It is the norm rather than the exception.

[mercuex]

Don't exaggerate. I was going no where near that far in my conjecture. I was simply stating that it seems to be politics as usual. Believe it or not, political backscratching does exist in this country and happens on all sides of the aisle. It is the norm rather than the exception.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh undoubtedly. But let's be realistic, if those states were governed by democrats or independents or Mao they would still be solid, plausible alternatives for Navy Jets. It's not as though Utah or Montana are in the bidding or something.

[okinawatyphoon]

Don't exaggerate. I was going no where near that far in my conjecture. I was simply stating that it seems to be politics as usual. Believe it or not, political backscratching does exist in this country and happens on all sides of the aisle. It is the norm rather than the exception.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Haha I took your conjecture the wrong way too as I am a big Bush supporter and a conservative (strange I want high rises too huh?? haha). but I see now...you're right, it is probably political, but seeing as Virginia is a pretty big Bush supporter I don't think he would want to get rid of them....just my opinon though. who knows what's really going on....

[VAGATOR]

Well it looks like a good 50/50 shot Oceana will close. If I have any real estate around here, I would cash out.

[rusthebuss]

Well it looks like a good 50/50 shot Oceana will close. If I have any real estate around here, I would cash out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why would you cash out? I don't think its going to kill this area as bad as everyone thinks.

[rusthebuss]

Haha I took your conjecture the wrong way too as I am a big Bush supporter and a conservative (strange I want high rises too huh?? haha). but I see now...you're right, it is probably political, but seeing as Virginia is a pretty big Bush supporter I don't think he would want to get rid of them....just my opinon though. who knows what's really going on....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Okinawa I think that me, mercuex, possiblily urban fan, and you are the few conserv on the va forum. You have to remember we do have some big republicans in our corner......cough.....Warner.....cough.........Drake.......cough.........Allan..

.cough. This politics but from my understanding the brac commitee is only voting on suggestions to close certain ones and really the blame really lies on the city of Vabeach. They allowed the building and the encroachment and have been warned for years so good job Vabeach.... You guys have a heck of a mayor that just screwed up your economy. I've never liked her anyways.

[rusthebuss]

This is the left conspiracy to close all of our military bases. Damn libs want to leave us open for attacks against us.

[hoobo]

Well it looks like a good 50/50 shot Oceana will close. If I have any real estate around here, I would cash out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's a 100% chance that Oceana will close at some point. They Navy needs a base with a bigger buffer, meaning more land, bigger base. It also needs an OLF in the boonies. But the chances of it getting closed in this round are 5%. BRAC is meant to save money. This tight of a schedule doesn't do that.

[rusthebuss]

There's a 100% chance that Oceana will close at some point.  They Navy needs a base with a bigger buffer, meaning more land, bigger base.  It also needs an OLF in the boonies.  But the chances of it getting closed in this round are 5%.  BRAC is meant to save money.  This tight of a schedule doesn't do that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Govt. save money what a joke. Just like them throwing brand new computers and desks and such in the international waters so the get the budget they want for next year. Govt never makes sense and it never will. It sounds like they got a hair up their @ss and it will be closed pretty fast in my opinion. To me it sounds like they want to find somewhere to put them temp until a new master base is built or a location is made into one.

[hoobo]

Okinawa I think that me, mercuex, possiblily urban fan, and you are the few conserv on the va forum. You have to remember we do have some big republicans in our corner......cough.....Warner.....cough.........Drake.......cough.........Allan..

.cough. This politics but from my understanding the brac commitee is only voting on suggestions to close certain ones and really the blame really lies on the city of Vabeach. They allowed the building and the encroachment and have been warned for years so good job Vabeach.... You guys have a heck of a mayor that just screwed up your economy. I've never liked her anyways.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So, um, where do you suggest they build? From Navy maps, half the buildable city (not including Pungo) is either in a high decibel or possible crash zone. This isn't 1942 or even 1980, it's 2005. Are you saying Meyera (who is only one person on an 11 person council) should have said "No, we like Oceana, please take your home-building to Chesapeake, preferably not near Fentress, and Suffolk, please"? Oceana and Cecil are not good air base sites because they are small bases. Other relocation candidates have 4, 5, even 6 times the acreage. If the Navy wanted a buffer, they should've bought more land surrounding the base (at least along the approaches) before anything was built out there (e.g. before 1980).

There is no temporarily. Temporarily requires hundreds of millions of dollar in new infrastructure. They'll move the jets to a new Master Jet Base not a layover until one gets built. Oceana is that temporary base.

Okinawa, Bush doesn't need Virginia's support. He already has his second term. He can do whatever he wants.

[urbanvb]

If they 'have' to move the base I do hope it stays in the area - Suffolk would prob be a good candidate as they still have plenty of available land in which to build.

[mercuex]

If they 'have' to move the base I do hope it stays in the area - Suffolk would prob be a good candidate as they still have plenty of available land in which to build.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yeah... I'm actually of the opinion if Oceana closes it won't be the silver bullet that will sink Hampton Roads. Instead, what will probably happen (since it takes years to move these things anyway) is that the market will adapt and developers will slobber over the freed up land. Who knows? Maybe it could spark a development rush!

I'll just miss the jets.

[rusthebuss]

So, um, where do you suggest they build?

[PeninsulaKiddo]

I just thought I'd mention that mercuex has the best signature line of anyone on here.

If the base gets rebuilt within the Hampton Roads region (which I pray it does), I don't think we'd see it in Suffolk. Suffolk is right about where Virginia Beach was 50 years ago so I don't think the Navy would be looking for a repeat scenario. If it were to go to IOW County (cause I'm sure they'd love that) or extreme southwestern/southern Suffolk, then I think that would be the only locations that would maintain the jobs in this region.

I hear the arguments that Oceana closing could spark off development in Virginia Beach, but I don't think that the hole in the economy would repair itself quite so quickly. If it takes 5-10 years to clean up the site, then that's 5 or 10 years where the city's largest and most valuable tract of land is sitting idle and producing nothing for the city (and in fact costing it considerable amounts of money for cleanup). People sometimes don't realize that this isn't an overnight thing. The base just doesn't close on Sept. 3 or whenever the final voting date is scheduled for. It's an extremely lengthy process and the base itself (if, God forbid, is closed this time) might not actually, physically close until several years later followed by up to a decade of environmental cleanup. A massive amount of time like that between closing and the promise of redevelopment would force Virginia Beach to play catch-up to where it is now in terms of jobs (over 10,000). In that way the economy could very easily stagnate for the better-part of that decade until there's finally a net gain of jobs again. By no means do I think these effects will ripple across Hampton Roads and shut down our economies of our cities effectively, but it will hurt Virginia Beach for several years. I, for one, am extremely impatient. I only have six or seven decades on this planet remaining and I wanna see some 'scrapers around here before I go!

And politically, Virginia is one of the largest solidly red states in the nation and it carries siginificant political clout so I don't think even post-reelection Bush would want to particularly piss us off by deliberately shifting our bases out.

[VAGATOR]

Why would you cash out? I don't think its going to kill this area as bad as everyone thinks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I won't kill the area, but the development of Virginia Beach's and Norfolk's downtowns, and suburban development in Suffolk and Chesapeake would slow down considerably. Think about, your not only losing 11,000 jobs, but your losing a lot of skilled jobs and at least 500 jobs that pay at least 100,000(there are over 350 planes at Oceana and they all make over 100 grand. Combine that with possible slow down of real estate in DC(Washington Post) and rising interest rates, I would start looking at selling at the moment. Virginia Beach gave BRAC an excuse to close Oceana, now it seems like the political winds i.e. Florida and Texas are pushing this possibility. Shame on Virginia Beach for letting developers put up all that nasty sprawl near Oceana which might ultimately risk the health of their growing downtown

[mercuex]

I just thought I'd mention that mercuex has the best signature line of anyone on here. 

If the base gets rebuilt within the Hampton Roads region (which I pray it does), I don't think we'd see it in Suffolk.  Suffolk is right about where Virginia Beach was 50 years ago so I don't think the Navy would be looking for a repeat scenario.  If it were to go to IOW County (cause I'm sure they'd love that) or extreme southwestern/southern Suffolk, then I think that would be the only locations that would maintain the jobs in this region. 

I hear the arguments that Oceana closing could spark off development in Virginia Beach, but I don't think that the hole in the economy would repair itself quite so quickly.  If it takes 5-10 years to clean up the site, then that's 5 or 10 years where the city's largest and most valuable tract of land is sitting idle and producing nothing for the city (and in fact costing it considerable amounts of money for cleanup).  People sometimes don't realize that this isn't an overnight thing.  The base just doesn't close on Sept. 3 or whenever the final voting date is scheduled for.  It's an extremely lengthy process and the base itself (if, God forbid, is closed this time) might not actually, physically close until several years later followed by up to a decade of environmental cleanup.  A massive amount of time like that between closing and the promise of redevelopment would force Virginia Beach to play catch-up to where it is now in terms of jobs (over 10,000).  In that way the economy could very easily stagnate for the better-part of that decade until there's finally a net gain of jobs again.  By no means do I think these effects will ripple across Hampton Roads and shut down our economies of our cities effectively, but it will hurt Virginia Beach for several years.  I, for one, am extremely impatient.  I only have six or seven decades on this planet remaining and I wanna see some 'scrapers around here before I go!   

And politically, Virginia is one of the largest solidly red states in the nation and it carries siginificant political clout so I don't think even post-reelection Bush would want to particularly piss us off by deliberately shifting our bases out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I wonder how many people the cleanup would employ?

As much as I want to see Oceana stay, I'm starting to agree with Rus that it's really something that VB may have brought on itself over the yrs. That said, it's no reason for anyone to not support VB's bid to keep the F-18s here in HR (not that anyone is doing that). No matter what, even if it doesn't wreck the HR economy (I have too much faith in our regional prowess), I think it will definitely put a dampener. We're interconnected, whether we like it or not, and the hemorrhage of so many jobs would definitely impact the rest of the economy. The psychological impact may be devastating too. Imagine a City Council in VB that is so risk adverse that it drives away the developers that are here.

On the other hand, I still believe that there is a chance that the city could make lemonade out of this. There are always those instances when something huge like this happens and posterity looks back on that event as the beginning of a brand new day. Our leaders in HR keep jawing on and on about the need to diversify our economy, to wean it further away from the military, and this might be the wakeup call that we need. The transient population here, due to the military, has definitely been a cited reason why we don't have pro-sports here in such a large market.

I think it really depends on how we react to whatever happens and what we do with what has been given us.

...My brothers and sisters.

</sermon>

[rusthebuss]

You are too funny dude. I totally agree with what you said but I don't think that Oceana will effect downtown Norfolks prosperity. Most of its prosperity hasn't been because of the military. But Vabeach's economy state will effect the TC.

[vdogg]

You only need look at how much effort the state is putting behind keeping this base to see the type of impact it must have on the economy. I'm one of the biggest proponents of diversifying our economy but I must admit that the closer this thing gets to coming to fruition, the more nervous I get. The state usually doesn't lift an eyebrow when it concerns HR regional issues but on this one they're hitting it hard. That only means to me that this closure may have far more of an economic impact than I previously believed, one that may be statewide and far reaching. We are the states 2nd largest metro area and if we take a hit, they will too.

[rusthebuss]

You only need look at how much effort the state is putting behind keeping this base to see the type of impact it must have on the economy. I'm one of the biggest proponents of diversifying our economy but I must admit that the closer this thing gets to coming to fruition, the more nervous I get. The state usually doesn't lift an eyebrow when it concerns HR regional issues but on this one they're hitting it hard. That only means to me that this closure may have far more of an economic impact than I previously believed, one that may be statewide and far reaching. We are the states 2nd largest metro area and if we take a hit, they will too.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good maybe Richmond will see our importance and not put this area on the backburner like it has for so many years. I hope it burns them to the bone.

[rusthebuss]

Just maybe the state will realize us as important as we are to the state economy but i don't think it will influence their opinions on us. The state has neglected this area for so long and its time that we push some of the pain back on them.

[urbanvb]

There is an interesting editorial in the Pilot today.

The article says the city and the DOD and in agreement in the early 90's as zoning ordinances and building codes were changed. In 2002 without notice the DOD changed the rules. All residential within AICUZ 65 and 75 noise-zone lines - over 16k acres and almost 19k housing units were immediately added to DOD's new definition of noncompatible land use. It goes on to say that land area is about the size of the city of Portsmouth! . So, it seems the city council is not all or maybe not even to blame.

[rusthebuss]

There is an interesting editorial in the Pilot today.

The article says the city and the DOD and in agreement in the early 90's as zoning ordinances and building codes were changed. In 2002 without notice the DOD changed the rules. All residential within AICUZ 65 and 75 noise-zone lines -  over 16k acres and almost 19k housing units were immediately added to DOD's new definition of noncompatible land use. It goes on to say that land area is about the size of the city of Portsmouth!  . So, it seems the city council is not all or maybe not even to blame.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

More politics then

[mercuex]

huh? so they're assessing the wisdom of having Oceana by a retroactively applied guideline?

[vdogg]

There is an interesting editorial in the Pilot today.

The article says the city and the DOD and in agreement in the early 90's as zoning ordinances and building codes were changed. In 2002 without notice the DOD changed the rules. All residential within AICUZ 65 and 75 noise-zone lines -  over 16k acres and almost 19k housing units were immediately added to DOD's new definition of noncompatible land use. It goes on to say that land area is about the size of the city of Portsmouth!  . So, it seems the city council is not all or maybe not even to blame.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Wow, that is interesting. It would seem that the military pulled a fast one on us. This is the type of thing that needs to be brought to the BRAC commissions attention. It's one thing if we didn't try to cooperate, but if we came to an agreement and they just changed the rules on a dime, thats just wrong and unfair.

[rusthebuss]

Wow, that is interesting. It would seem that the military pulled a fast one on us. This is the type of thing that needs to be brought to the BRAC commissions attention. It's one thing if we didn't try to cooperate, but if we came to an agreement and they just changed the rules on a dime, thats just wrong and unfair.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

One thing that I have learned is that the feds don't care. They don't care if we tried to comply. There is a real reason that is not being brought up here. Maybe the NIMBYs have just mailed the living crap out of DC and the BRAC commission that they are fed up with it and are moving this base regardless what all the other politicians think that are for this base to stay put.