Hampton Roads Military Developments

[PeninsulaKiddo]

OH WOW. You can't leave this freakin' thread for 2 seconds I swear!!! $182 million!?!?!?! Is Virginia Beach City Council on an acid trip or something!? I hope they realize that by this stage in the game the decision is likely already made... That is serious dough that could really be much more wisely spent elsewhere and honestly I think they're just hurting themselves here... CRAAAAAAZYYYYyyy. I want Oceana to stay as much, if not more, than most, but that is insanity.

[rusthebuss]

OH WOW.  You can't leave this freakin' thread for 2 seconds I swear!!!    $182 million!?!?!?!  Is Virginia Beach City Council on an acid trip or something!?  I hope they realize that by this stage in the game the decision is likely already made...  That is serious dough that could really be much more wisely spent elsewhere and honestly I think they're just hurting themselves here...  CRAAAAAAZYYYYyyy.  I want Oceana to stay as much, if not more, than most, but that is insanity.

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Yeah I have stated that a bunch of times that its a too little too late. The decision is made they may close it down this time but it will take time for the base to close....years to do so.

[rusthebuss]

Also whats crazy is that they are planning on buying land in Chesapeake. Fentress field is in Chesapeake, unless they mean on the beach side of it.

[Viper]

Yeah I have stated that a bunch of times that its a too little too late. The decision is made they may close it down this time but it will take time for the base to close....years to do so.

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It does take years.

Cecil was voted to be eclosed in '93 but didn't actually close up shop completely until '99.

I don't know if transfer will be expedited due to enchroachment issue or not but it will still take a few years if voted for closure.

[hoobo]

Under BRAC guidlines, the military has up to 6 years to close a base after the President has approved BRAC's recommended base closings. I don't think that is enough time to open a new master jet base and close Oceana. It would probably take at least 2 years to prepare an existing base to accomodate the 200 planes based at Oceana, not to mention the time it would take to move them and the 10,000 personnel and their families. It would take even longer if the Navy is looking at acquiring land in either Virginia or NC for a completely new base. And neither a base nor a site has been chosen. My feeling is that this stunt is meant to pressure the Navy to find a new site and have construction plans finalized by 2011, the next round of BRAC (I believe it's every 6 years, not 5 years). This will give the Navy enough time to try to acquire land for a base; work out an agreement with another branch if the Navy wants an AFB, MCAS, or Army Fort; or work out an actual deal to reactivate Cecil.

[vdogg]

My how the tables have turned. All those people who were having a field day telling council to do any and everything to save Oceana are now choking on that $182 million price tag and the prospects of losing land. Check out this thread at pilotonline. The difference in the tone of discussion is night and day if you compare what people are saying now to what they were saying before the Beach decided to cough up all that cash. The first three post all say "close it down!". I think the cost of keeping Oceana is giving people on both sides of this issue some second thoughts.

[urbanvb]

My how the tables have turned.    All those people who were having a field day telling council to do any and everything to save Oceana are now choking on that $182 million price tag and the prospects of losing land. Check out this thread at pilotonline. The difference in the tone of discussion is night and day  if you compare what people are saying now to what they were saying before the Beach decided to cough up all that cash.  The first three post all say "close it down!". I think the cost of keeping Oceana is giving people on both sides of this issue some second thoughts.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I must agree. Yes, the city needs to do what it can to save and secure Oceana but at the tune of $182 million dollars? I hardly to think so. And at what cost and measure is the city willing to go for them? Things are really heating up on both sides.

[urbanvb]

I was thinking the same thing as one contributer to that discussion on Piltonline.

"Another panic move by the City."

[rusthebuss]

Like I said they should have thought about it all of those years of allowing the building around the base. Sure the govt should have bought the land but the didn't. Do they really think this far in the game that buying this land up is going to save it. Wake up Vabeach city council. To little to late.

[Viper]

According to the Florida Times-Union (Jax paper), the following figures are being given to the BRAC.

$331 million for Cecil to be rebuilt to 2005 Navy standards, with new commisary and Exchange, housing, etc...but, Jax is cutting costs, big time.

Jacksonville Naval Air Station is about 6 miles away and has the worlds best Exchange (They actually won some awaurd for it) and can accomodate Cecil saving $47 million, leaving the price at $284 million.

A government and business partnership to build officer and enlisted member housing could cut the cost by $166 million making it $118 million.

$118 million plus $50 million to relocate a few businesses brings the total to $168 million to re-establish Cecil. 4.5 years was pegged at the timeframe to do it all.

It would cost $500 million to upgrade Moody in GA and $1.5 billion to build a new base.

[rusthebuss]

According to the Florida Times-Union (Jax paper), the following figures are being given to the BRAC.

$331 million for Cecil to be rebuilt to 2005 Navy standards, with new commisary and Exchange, housing, etc...but, Jax is cutting costs, big time.

Jacksonville Naval Air Station is about 6 miles away and has the worlds best Exchange (They actually won some awaurd for it) and can accomodate Cecil saving $47 million, leaving the price at $284 million.

A government and business partnership to build officer and enlisted member housing could cut the cost by $166 million making it $118 million.

$118 million plus $50 million to relocate a few businesses brings the total to $168 million to re-establish Cecil.  4.5 years was pegged at the timeframe to do it all.

It would cost $500 million to upgrade Moody in GA and $1.5 billion to build a new base.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for trying to keep rubbing it in. Will return the favor later on.

[hoobo]

A decision on Oceana had to be made. What the VB council doesn't understand is that the decision was made in the 80's. Either VB could remain a small city of 200,000 people heavily dependent on the military or it could become a medium city of 500,000 with a diversified economy. It chose the latter. VB should stop fighting the inevitable and work to develop a post-Oceana plan. Buying properties that are surrounded by already developed parcels is not a solution. It's desperation. Get up, take your drink, and move on to another table.

Viper, that 4.5 years, is it to get the base ready or to complete the entire move? If it's the former, then Oceana won't be closed in this round, but very likely in the next round.

[rusthebuss]

I agree and they need to move on and start planning on what to do with the land that oceana sits on.

[Viper]

Hoobo, that's complete relocation and operation of Oceana to Cecil.

Guys, VB has a unique opportunity here and could use Jax as a model for it.

When Cecil closed, the city was given the land. Right away they began marketing it major businesses as a center for aviation. Northrop Gruman, Boeing, Embracer, LSI and more have set up major operations or plan to (Many of these can still use Cecil even if it reopens as a MJB).

VB should begin plans just in case it is shut down and start negotiating with these same companies and more for big business. It won't fill the void completely but it does help a lot and these are high paying jobs which really help the community.

A silver lining can be found on every dark cloud if you look hard enough.

[sugoiben]

A silver lining can be found on every dark cloud if you look hard enough.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed, I think the city has quite an opportunity here. How many development proposals have come and been shot down in VB, outside of Oceana, because of noise zones and crash zones and the like. As soon as word comes down that Oceana is going, developers should drawing up plans for how they want to transform all those places that had been off limits before. And since it's outside the base already no need to wait for the navy to completly pack up and be gone to start on something. Take a couple years to see those things go from drawing board to brick and mortar anyways, as we know too well.

[hoobo]

Would the DoD just give the land to VB or would it do what has been done in California and auction off the land?

Anyway, I have another solution. There's not only a "C" in BRAC but also an "R". What about realignment? A big example would be the west coast NASs and MCASs. MCAS Tustin and MCAS El Toro were both closed. Their operations were moved to NAS Miramar which was renamed MCAS Miramar. Its operations were subsequently moved to the new NAS Lemoore. (The Navy already owned much of NAS Lemoore but the master jet base had to be built from the ground up.)

Acreage at both MCAS Beaufort and MCAS Cherry Point is comparable to the present size of Cecil. (Before closure Cecil had as much acreage as NAS Lemoore, which makes me wonder if the Navy desires another large base for the east coast?) MCAS Beaufort is the smaller of the two operations, so I'm gonna go with that facility. What about a swap? MCAS Beaufort becomes NAS Beaufort and NAS Oceana becomes MCAS Oceana. Oceana would have fewer operations (takeoffs and landings), base personnel would be half as much (5000 vs 10000), and the Marines don't need the kind of flight training areas as the Navy. And HR could get some great bar fights between Squids and their little brothers. Maybe throw in the Army for some added action.

[urbanvb]

Another question would be how long would it take for cleanup of this site ? I would think it would be rather labor intensive and could take quite some time as well.

[hoobo]

Another question would be how long would it take for cleanup of this site ? I would think it would be rather labor intensive and could take quite some time as well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Based on other closed bases: 5 - 10 years, depending on how much oil, jet flue, and degreasers were carefully disposed of.

[rusthebuss]

Based on other closed bases:  5 - 10 years, depending on how much oil, jet flue, and degreasers were carefully disposed of.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

How many of those bases you are referring to where built in the 40's? Might be alot more environmental issues here than there.

[Viper]

Would the DoD just give the land to VB or would it do what has been done in California and auction off the land?

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The city was given the land when Cecil closed. I can't tell you if that's a unique situtation or not but I'd assume that VB would be given Oceana's land as well.

[hoobo]

How many of those bases you are referring to where built in the 40's? Might be alot more environmental issues here than there.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm more familiar with base closings in California, since there were few base closings in Virginia when I was growing up. MCAS TUstin and MCAS El Toro were both commissioned during WWII like Oceana. Both were recommended for closure in 1993 and officially closed in 1999. Both bases also require significant clean-up. For the past 2 years, there has been development at Tustin while clean-up continues at certain sites on the former base. El Toro; after a heated fight between pro-airport groups, pro-park groups, and pro-development groups; was put up for auction. Lennar Homes was the highest bidder at $660 million. Plans call for a huge urban park, 3000 homes, and office parks. I do not know when construction will begin or if and when clean-up will begin. Near San Francisco, the 150 year-old Mare Island Naval Shipyard in Vallejo was closed in 1996. The base was auctioned off with Lennar Homes putting in the winning bid. Construction of homes and businesses has recently begun after a few years of clean-up. Some clean-up is still occuring at more contaminated sites.

At Oceana, the areas that are contaminated are under and around runways, taxiways, tarmacs, hangers, test buildings, and fuel storage. Clean-up will involve excavating the contaminated soils and disposing of them at EPA-certified HazMat landfills. Groundwater monitoring wells will be drilled to find out where the leachates have traveled and make sure the contamination doesn't spread. If groundwater contamination is widespread then it becomes a huge problem as either this water probably has to be pumped out to be treated or some kind of gas (CO2, etc.) has to be injected into the ground to chemically separate the leachate from the groundwater and extract the now contaminated air using vacuums. The wooded areas, un-touched clearings, and areas with base housing and base command buildings should be clean and ready for immediate development after the base is officially closed.

[okinawatyphoon]

Va., Fla. to make closing arguments on Oceana

[vdogg]

Va., Fla. to make closing arguments on Oceana

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This is gonna be one ugly fight!

[rusthebuss]

This is gonna be one ugly fight!

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Sorry but I think that Florida will win due to the fact they have perserved the land around the base. Vabeach just let it go to far and are trying to save something that has been slipping away for years to come. To little to late.

[vdogg]

Sorry but I think that Florida will win due to the fact they have perserved the land around the base. Vabeach just let it go to far and are trying to save something that has been slipping away for years to come. To little to late.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually, it is really far too early to tell who will win this fight. I think Oceana still has the upper hand, even with all the bad news as of late.