Hampton Roads Transportation

[varider]

Norfolk will be more expensive period. It winds through downtown streets which is twice as expensive as any option. It has two bridges over rivers and one over a rail line and an elevated section over Brambleton along with a myriad of other complications. Virginia beach has a dedicated right of way through the whole project. The most expensive part would be elevating the line over large intersections, which is minimal. Even when it goes through Town Center, the line does not have to be embedded or property taken (such as the library in Norfolk) to go through. There is no doubt that per mile when adjusted for inflation, that VB's line should be much less expensive. If not, I would really have to ask what on earth the people are doing to need that kind of money. Any time you have to embed rail in concrete it is more expensive. Norfolk's is embedded from the harbor park area all the way through downtown. Not to mention the complication with digging in such a historic downtown. Nothing is clearly marked or understood. Their are surprises under every shovel full of dirt.

But the Beach extension has so many at grade crossings that will need to be embedded, way more than norfolk..The Beach has to remove the old tracks still in the ground.. && Norfolk's line is not embedded but for a few seconds going past harbor park then it stops until it gets downtown.. The Beach will probably have five or six more stations than Norfolk, and don't forget once the train gets near the convention center the ROW ends, and the train will work on city streets again.

[rusthebuss]

But the Beach extension has so many at grade crossings that will need to be embedded, way more than norfolk..The Beach has to remove the old tracks still in the ground.. && Norfolk's line is not embedded but for a few seconds going past harbor park then it stops until it gets downtown.. The Beach will probably have five or six more stations than Norfolk, and don't forget once the train gets near the convention center the ROW ends, and the train will work on city streets again.

just a little FYI, Urbanfan is a engineer.

[metalman]

I say elevate the whole thing through Virginia Beach and be done with it. You make a the mathematics and steel reinforced concrete supports molds once and duplicate it 'till it's done. None of this up, down, up, down stuff. It'll feel like a rollercoaster if you take it from Norfolk to the Oceanfront. You won't have to worry about crossing gates and lights, traffic accidents and death related to car/train crashes. Like the "El" in Long Island the car parking is either beside or underneath the rails. It'll save space and provide more parking too. So next time, when you think "El"s, you'll think Chicago, New York, Virginia Beach.

[mlsimons]

I think it's about time for a regional gas tax to pay for the transportation improvements this area really needs...

I think so too...unfortunately we are a Dillon Rule state, which means that in order to do that the gas tax has to be statewide. We are not legislatively allowed to tax ourselves as individuals. This is what makes regionalism here so hard. We can not do what Portland or the Twin Cities does until we become a Home Rule state.

Additionally, something you may be interested to know...state legislation was introduced not too long ago about increasing the gas tax statewide by 17 cents!

[Henry_Ryto]

I think so too...unfortunately we are a Dillon Rule state, which means that in order to do that the gas tax has to be statewide.

No, the General Assembly may enact a regional Gas Tax for Hampton Roads provided that all revenues go to Hampton Roads Transportation.

What was found "unconstitutional" about HB 3202 was that the General Assembly had delegated it's authority to impose such taxes and fees to the HRTA.

[mlsimons]

No, the General Assembly may enact a regional Gas Tax for Hampton Roads provided that all revenues go to Hampton Roads Transportation.

What was found "unconstitutional" about HB 3202 was that the General Assembly had delegated it's authority to impose such taxes and fees to the HRTA.

I'm sorry but I was informed this was a common misconception among Virginia voters. It was brought to my attention by the long-range comprehensive city planner of Chesapeake who was also my instructor in "Methods of Urban Planning" URBN 633 last spring at ODU.

This is how it works, we can only share tax revenue, not actually increase taxes for only our specific region. And tax sharing could only happen if all affected municipalities join in and agree. But as far as implementing a higher gas tax just for our region is not allowed by the state legislation. Just like how making one municipality smoke free is not allowed, it has to be done state-wide. NOVA is having some of the same issues as us, which is partly why they have opted to for more tolls and HOT lanes...(although I hear they are being built privately). But the point is...they too would like to establish a regional gas tax increase dedicated to major local projects.

If any legislation has changed I would like to be corrected, cause this is a problem I can't wait to see fixed.

[varider]

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/06/my-perch-l...nch-rail-ticket

Unless I'm missing something, we're not getting the flying cars. Or the pneumatic tubes. Instead, familiar technology will probably carry me to and from work and play. I expect it'll carry me on my last ride.

Our future cars might run on electricity - maybe from renewable sources - but I suspect the vehicles we drive in 40 years will look a lot like the ones we drive now, and the ones we drove 40 years ago. In other words, they won't fly or travel through tubes. And I won't get to wear the cool helmet with the lightning bolts.

All of which means we're gonna need roads. We're gonna need them for a good long time.

In the week since I proposed making myself king of the region's transportation system, I've heard from enough folks to be encouraged about people's passion to get this right. I've also been surprised by the level of their frustration, both with Richmond's inability to raise the dough and by Hampton Roads' inability to find one voice to articulate our needs.

So I figured I'd give it a try.

First, the money: A combination of gas taxes and tolls should raise enough. See how easy that is?

Second, the roads: There's no reason to build another lane, another single mile, except to get people and cargo out of Hampton Roads and tourists in. That means first we build an Interstate 460 to provide escape capacity that doesn't involve crossing the James River. On the south side, we could surely use that, and it would reduce congestion on I-64 and the James River crossings.

Not a penny gets spent to build new local roads unless existing ones are disastrous or dangerous. After all, inadequate local roads created this mess of gridlock and sprawling development; they're not going to get us out of it. In fact, while I'd spend dough to maintain the roads we've got, I'd probably close some lanes. (More on that in a minute.)

As much as I complain about sitting at the Downtown Tunnel each day, I know it's my fault. I live in Suffolk and work in Norfolk, for heaven's sake. I travel farther in a week than some of my ancestors traveled in a lifetime. A twice-daily delay is the cost of my decisions, so I should just shut up about it.

But - and this is the "but" that should get me to work faster - the Elizabeth River crossings are inadequate precisely because there are too few alternatives. Which brings me to the trains.

Rail provides commuting capacity, sure. But more than that, it provides a way of moving people that both corresponds to growth and living patterns we'd like and accommodates the ones we've got.

People tend to congregate around rail stations because they make lives easier, commutes shorter and simpler. Stations also attract the restaurants, retail and leisure that occupy evenings and weekends.

Light rail in Norfolk is the right choice for the region's urban core. It will get people - albeit slowly - around a dense urban environment that's only going to get denser. You might be able to extend light rail all the way to the Oceanfront, along the relatively crowded Virginia Beach Boulevard, although that would be a longish trip on a slowish train. You could take it to the bases and perhaps to Portsmouth.

Getting people around the region quickly, though, will take something else. It will take so-called "heavy" rail - commuter trains on dedicated lines traveling significant distances. You can run them down highway medians. Connect commuter to higher-speed rail. Maybe even close highway lanes to make room.

Building commuter rail would take a ton of money - billions - but so would building new highways. Rail, though, would allow us to remain in our discrete communities without sprawling between them to make the case for roads. It could be cheaper than highways if all costs are accounted for. And it is something highways never can be: Rail is scalable.

It can grow with population, both cheaply and quickly. Adding capacity is as simple as adding rail cars or train frequency. It doesn't usually require moving neighborhoods. And expanding rail is unlikely to require the General Assembly to pass subsequent and sufficient funding plans, which is clearly beyond its abilities. Rail would, simply, give us a measure of control over our destiny that we don't have now.

In other words, we can wait for the flying cars and for our lawmakers to find gumption and foresight, or we can start laying tracks. I'd pick the latter.

I'd say this expresses the views of the majority of us on this website.

[varider]

I know I've said this before but no link only posts. You may repost the link as long as a short paragraph or description accompanies it.

Edited July 22, 2009 by vdogg
Link only post

[rusthebuss]

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/07/mcdonnells...ssing-hrbt-work

I was already going to vote for him! Its time the state kicks back to this region!

[vdogg]

I was already going to vote for him! Its time the state kicks back to this region!

I'm disappointed that Deeds hasn't submitted a similar plan, but I'm skeptical that McDonnell can deliver. I honestly don't like the guy but if he can tweak his plan to have an emphasis on transit instead of roads then he may get my vote.

[cpeakesqr]

I'm disappointed that Deeds hasn't submitted a similar plan, but I'm skeptical that McDonnell can deliver. I honestly don't like the guy but if he can tweak his plan to have an emphasis on transit instead of roads then he may get my vote.

Deeds better find his voice soon or it's going to be too late. In the debate this morning he struggled in the delivery of his ideas, while McDonnell was very smooth in presenting his somewhat questionable ideas, such as "George Bush was good for the economy." When Deeds asked where he'd been the last 8 years, McDonnell said something about Bush keeping America safe. That could have been a knockout, but Deeds couldn't pull it off.

[varider]

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/08/candidate-...l-not-your-vote

"I'm just here to promote light rail," he said. "There is no other plank in my platform but to see passenger rail all over Virginia."

[varider]

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/08/rail-backe...e-hampton-roads

I'm so tired of this anti regionlism crap, the hsr needs to go to downtown norfolk and that should be the end of it. I'm not downing Newport News, but it's obviously no Norfolk and the Southside is the economic center and obviously the most populous. If we get screwed over by the state because of this divide, I'll be pretty mad.

[jbhay]

I'm going to go ahead and agree with you there. Norfolk is where it should end. Newport News has Amtrak service.

I'd also like to say that my last post, in the HR Off-Topic thread, should probably have gone in here since it's more relative. Oh well...I'll try ranting in here more.

[cpeakesqr]

Deeds' Solution for Transportation

I'd say it's a honest, albeit unpopular, solution. He still hasn't released a transportation plan...

[varider]

I think I like Mcdonnal or whatever his name is more than Deeds. Deeds come from rural VA, doesn't seem like he has any idea what he wants to do, Mcdonnal is from Hampton Roads and has released a plan saying he will build the third crossing, wants to extend light rail etc.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

I don't really like either's plan for transportation that much. McDonnell supports the Third Crossing and LR extension, but he's also aligned himself with Glenn Oder (who is, ostensibly, more-moderate), who unfortunately has proposed to do away with the Hampton Roads Transit Authority. I don't know if this is in line with McDonnell's wishes, but I think devolution of our regional authorities would be disastrous. We have a hard enough time getting things off the ground as is.

I mean, McDonnell's plans for transportation or urban development are the least of my complaints against him.

[vdogg]

I mean, McDonnell's plans for transportation or urban development are the least of my complaints against him.

Haha. Same here. The only reason I may vote for him though is that his transportation plan is far more coherent than Deeds. It'll be a cold day in hell before we get a democratic House of Delegates, It's just far too dominated by the rural portion of the state. I'm hoping (praying) that by having the same party in the house and governorship we may be able to accomplish something. So long as there's a dem in the governors mansion, the house will oppose any and all solutions that he puts forth. I'd love to vote for Deeds, but I just don't feel he'd be effective at all in getting our transportation issues fixed, which on a state level is the only issue i'm currently concerned with.

[varider]

http://smartregion.org/2009/08/gas-tax-rea...ns-from-europe/

Drivers in Northern Virginia pay an additional 2% sales tax to help pay for public transportation in the region

We definately need this in Hampton Roads. ASAP.

[jbhay]

^ Definitely agree. As long as it goes towards funding mass transit systems (i.e. future light rail development). No more highways! Or we could fix the highway interchanges/entrance-exit ramps because that's the largest contributor to our region's highway network problems.

[varider]

^ Definitely agree. As long as it goes towards funding mass transit systems (i.e. future light rail development). No more highways! Or we could fix the highway interchanges/entrance-exit ramps because that's the largest contributor to our region's highway network problems.

It should pay for the third crossing, which absolutely must have room for light rail to cross the harbor.. The new midtown tunnel is about to be built by a private-public partnership, but we can't privitize every project that's long overdue.. We need a regional transportation sales tax or else it's gonna take 100 years to build our regional LRT and commuter rail system.

[Mobius57]

Guys word of advice. NEVER go through the HRBT tunnel on a hot sticky day with both your windows rolled down(broken AC). I nearly died.

[varider]

Guys word of advice. NEVER go through the HRBT tunnel on a hot sticky day with both your windows rolled down(broken AC). I nearly died.

LOL! That must have sucked.. I would've went out of my way and used the M & M and kept it rollin'.

[Mobius57]

Yeh the HRBTs vent systems are weak..

[jbhay]

It should pay for the third crossing, which absolutely must have room for light rail to cross the harbor.. The new midtown tunnel is about to be built by a private-public partnership, but we can't privitize every project that's long overdue.. We need a regional transportation sales tax or else it's gonna take 100 years to build our regional LRT and commuter rail system.

The other day, I was reading over the Third Crossing proposal from Skanska that's been on VDOT's site for years apparently. Definitely saw that part about having the multi-modal lanes for rail transit. Does anyone have any information on what is going on with the Third Crossing project? The proposal had mentioned something about tolls being implemented on both HRBT & MMMBT last July, so I'm assuming something has halted the process of the project. I finally saw the alignment for the new system and didn't know an additional highway is envisioned to shoot north from the Western Freeway (164). Very exciting stuff to me, but anyone know how the project is coming along?