Hampton Roads Transportation

[Glassoul]

Im writing a comprehensive plan review for Norfolk's 1992 general plan...I though you guys might find this part interesting.

Additionally, the City of Norfolk foresaw the need for legislative change in order to appropriately finance an infrastructure project so costly. Since no change in legislation has been made, the new Midtown Tunnel is being financed privately by a foreign contractor, essentially outsourcing our local infrastructure which will one day turn a profit and allow local monies to leave the region and the nation. We have found a way to locally outsource our most valuable assets; the cost of local infrastructure and labor. Some have blamed this regional finance problem on the Dillon Rule; however, we live in a democratic state in the most populated region on the Commonwealth. We have no one to blame but ourselves for not amending this outdated legislation."

Your analysis is missing a lot such as increased productivity/opportunity costs resulting from building/not building the second tube. The protectionist argument is pretty flimsy too.

Edited April 23, 2009 by Glassoul

[varider]

A comment on the Pilot said that HRT will run express trains during peak hours especially from Downtown to the Oceanfront with one stop in Town Center. I think that would be a great ideaa! It could reach near top speed and get there in 12-15 minutes!

[varider]

http://www.drpt.virginia.gov/news/files/Co...t%20updated.pdf

The Virginia Department of Transportation (VDOT) and the Virginia Department of Rail and Public Transportation (DRPT) presented a draft Six-Year Improvement Program for Fiscal Years (FY) 2010-2015 to the Commonwealth Transportation Board (CTB). The total proposed program is $7.4 billion, down from $8.9 billion in the revised FY 2009-2014 budget approved three months ago.

Norfolk Light Rail Project 10,784,941 1,725,591 8,627,953 Flexible STP / 201

Looks as if Hampton Roads has about 2.22 billion dollars of Mass Transit funds to compete for amongst NoVa and Richmond. You know Richmond won't be ready for about 5-10 years. We might be in a good position. To complete the Va Beach and NOB extension we only need about 900 million.

Edited May 26, 2009 by varider

[mlsimons]

http://www.hrmpo.org/MTG_AGNDS/TTAC_Info/2...tation_TTAC.pdf

Hampton Roads Bridge-Tunnel Presentation

[MissySchmidt]

http://www.hrmpo.org/MTG_AGNDS/TTAC_Info/2...tation_TTAC.pdf

Hampton Roads Bridge-Tunnel Presentation

What'dya think about the presentation? I plan to post to the blog, www.SmartRegion.org

[mlsimons]

What'dya think about the presentation? I plan to post to the blog, www.SmartRegion.org

I think its very interesting to note how much less the volume of traffic the Midtown Tunnel is experiencing compared to the other tunnels; yet this tunnel still has some of the worst backups. This to me says that the Midtown Tunnel expansion should show real reductions in backups once the second tube is opened. Another interesting note, is how much the volume at the MMBT has risen. This tunnel is currently experiencing the least backups, so they may be a reason why more people are choosing to use it and even choose their housing/commute patterns accordingly. I think we will continue to see people make their living arrangements bases on the best way to avoid our maze of traffic backups.

[varider]

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/06/panel-seek...-tunnel-project

PORTSMOUTH

Reducing a projected $2 to $3 toll for cars remained the top priority for a panel that's vetting a private proposal to expand the Midtown Tunnel.

Other concerns were raised Wednesday night by the specially appointed independent review panel, including accommodating light rail, collecting tolls before the tunnel is open and funding maintenance.

After a meeting of more than three hours, the panel was restrained in its recommendations to state highway officials and was careful not to add to the project costs, which could drive up tolls.

Jeff Florin, Virginia Port Authority deputy director, urged the group to focus on the bottom line. "This is what happens to so many projects," he warned, saying costs grow so much they become unaffordable.

A consortium of private firms, Elizabeth River Crossings, wants to add a second tube to the Midtown Tunnel, refurbish the Downtown Tunnel and extend the Martin Luther King Freeway. Work would begin in 2011 and end in 2015. The $2 billion proposal includes car tolls of $2 to $3 and trucks tolls of $6 to $9, for both tunnels. It includes no public funding, but the Virginia Department of Transportation will review whether the state could contribute money to reduce the tolls.

The panel recommended that VDOT enter into an interim agreement with Elizabeth River Crossings so the scope and funding can be fully developed. That would include detailed analysis of toll rates.

"We believe very specific steps can be taken to bring the toll down," said Karl H. Reichelt, Skanska executive vice president. "We know the $1 to $1.50 range is the zone we need to hit."

The panel debated whether to have VDOT explore adding light rail to the new tunnel. It was pointed out the tube as proposed could accommodate trains, but approaches and ventilation would have to be altered, adding costs and time.

Michael Townes, Hampton Roads Transit president, said his agency has not determined if a Midtown route would make the most sense for extending the light rail. The agency just launched a study for extending it through Virginia Beach.

[rusthebuss]

The state really screws this region. We need to get better reps up there in Richmond. They sure do take a lot from here but never want to give any back!

[mlsimons]

http://www.hrmpo.org/MTG_AGNDS/HRTPO/2009/...mmentstoCTB.pdf

If you're not mad yet, you're about to be!

[rusthebuss]

that really doesn't surprise me! The sad thing is that they want us to pay for the roads. Why don't the state us the money its getting from the state owned port facilities to fund the roads....its one of the main reasons we have the congestion.

[varider]

VDOT is still in the Draft phase of the 5 year improvement plan. I'm not sure It would work, but I think we all need to write them a stern letter. I don't see how an area with 1.7 million people, the port of virginia, the largest naval base in the world, the area with the most tourism dollars in the state, can get little to no money for transportation.

http://syip.virginiadot.org/docs/FY10-DRAFT-SYIP.pdf

[rusthebuss]

For the life of me, I can't understand why our reps let us get screwed year after year with state funding. Why are they not standing up for this region?

[MissySchmidt]

For the life of me, I can't understand why our reps let us get screwed year after year with state funding. Why are they not standing up for this region?

The short answer? We're outvoted. Due to political gerrymandering of many years ago, there are more votes in Virginia's General Assembly from the rural areas of the state than there are from its metro areas. Redistricting comes up in 2011. Perhaps our new governor, whoever he may be, will finally be able to convince Rural Virginia (RoVA) that Hampton Roads is the source of much of their economy, i.e. the Port and the goods that flow through it.

[CaveMaN]

Not sure how much this has been talked about, or where it's located on this site... but has anyone looked at http://midtowntunnel.org/ ?

THere's a photo on there with the proposal for the MLK extension to 264 and associated onramps.

[varider]

Guys, now that we know we only have about 550 mil. for the next 5 years for road and transit improvements, I think it's about time for a regional gas tax to pay for the transportation improvements this area really needs... Now I'm not saying that we should tax the residents to death in the midst of an economic crisis, but even a half cent on every gallon pumped would probably give us a billion dollars in 5 years.. The metro will continue to be passed by every other area just because we don't have the supporting infrastructure.. 264 is full of potholes, 64 isn't wide enough on the peninsula, the tunnels are consistently backed up for miles..And it's only getting worse.. What do ya think? I know we have New Starts to fund our light rail system, but what about roads, bridges, tunnels? HRT busses need to run at least until 2 AM and instead of every hour, at least every 30 minutes.. There's so much that needs to be done with so little money.

[rusthebuss]

Guys, now that we know we only have about 550 mil. for the next 5 years for road and transit improvements, I think it's about time for a regional gas tax to pay for the transportation improvements this area really needs... Now I'm not saying that we should tax the residents to death in the midst of an economic crisis, but even a half cent on every gallon pumped would probably give us a billion dollars in 5 years.. The metro will continue to be passed by every other area just because we don't have the supporting infrastructure.. 264 is full of potholes, 64 isn't wide enough on the peninsula, the tunnels are consistently backed up for miles..And it's only getting worse.. What do ya think? I know we have New Starts to fund our light rail system, but what about roads, bridges, tunnels? HRT busses need to run at least until 2 AM and instead of every hour, at least every 30 minutes.. There's so much that needs to be done with so little money.

Why should we have to continue to tax the crap out of us here when we give so much now as it is to the state? Its already too expensive here and why because of the state BS! We need to change this crap! The state is the exact reason why this region is choked off! Why is it when Richmond doesn't need roads they still have the money!!!!!!! Nova should get a great deal towards its roads. And we should be second in funds for the roads. The state owns the ports and cities get no real estate taxes off of them so they raise the taxes on us. Taxing is not the answer.

[varider]

Taxing is not the answer.

Obviously it's not my first choice, but we have very little allocated money for the next five years and we NEED improvements.. Traffic is a mess. 1/2 cent for every gallon would only cost like 6-7 cents per fill up.. I mean what's so wrong with that.. We gotta do something, don't we? Unless we privatize every project..The private sector is already building the midtown tunnel, jordan bridge, we can't expect them to build everything.. We can't afford them to either.. Would you rather have a miniscule gas tax or pay $2 to cross the bridge tunnel or to go through the tunnel..

[rusthebuss]

Obviously it's not my first choice, but we have very little allocated money for the next five years and we NEED improvements.. Traffic is a mess. 1/2 cent for every gallon would only cost like 6-7 cents per fill up.. I mean what's so wrong with that.. We gotta do something, don't we? Unless we privatize every project..The private sector is already building the midtown tunnel, jordan bridge, we can't expect them to build everything.. We can't afford them to either.. Would you rather have a miniscule gas tax or pay $2 to cross the bridge tunnel or to go through the tunnel..

We shouldn't run away with our tails between our legs. We've been bullied by the state for far too long! We need to take a stand against this crap! So we tax 1/2 cent on gas now something else comes up and we need more money. Then we are taxed again for the exact reason we were before, and then again and again. When does it stop???? When do we get some of money back that this region generates? NO MORE BULLYING FROM THE STATE

[varider]

So we tax 1/2 cent on gas now something else comes up and we need more money. Then we are taxed again for the exact reason we were before, and then again and again. When does it stop???? When do we get some of money back that this region generates? NO MORE BULLYING FROM THE STATE

Yes, we and our elected representatives do need to tell the state that enough is enough.. But at the same time, we can't change anything right now.. They have created their 5 year improvement plan. So I'm saying let's roll with punches, collect our own money, build our transit system, fix our ailing highways, and by the time the next budget comes around, make ourselves heard.. The State acts like we are the unwanted stepchild when we probably benefit them more than Richmond and NoVa..

[Case]

The entire tax debate is usually lacking in detail and perspective. Cutting taxes on the national level has an adverse effect on local regions. Also the distribution of state taxes revenue by property or income make a tremendous difference. (see California who are unable to raise property taxes (prop 13) therefore they depend on (dropping) income taxes.) Please note that many states which have low taxes (often southern and conservative) are also the biggest recipients of federal dollars due to their poverty rates (see SC) and are in essence able to keep tax low due to federal subsidization.

Crude hyper anti-tax speech actually causes many of the developmental and infrastructure problem we face now. Some of the same people who rail about a penny tax also complain the loudest about our lack of a third crossing or our insuffient midtown tunnel. We should hold Gov accountable but balance is needed in this conversation.

[varider]

http://www.hamptonroadstransitplan.com/PDF...tion_Report.pdf

Cost and Ridership Estimation of the Transit Vision Plan..

Boy do we need some money.

LRT to Newtown Road to the Oceanfront:$754,600,000

LRT to Naval Station Norfolk via 64:$698,400,000

Rapid Transit to Midtown Portsmouth:$776,500,000

There's a lot more.. WE NEED A GAS TAX!! You guys think New Starts will fund our whole transit system? According to the Plan, the spur to the Naval Station is the only extension that qualifies for New Starts Ridership..

If every proposed light rail line is built by 2035 the average daily ridership will be over 140,000.. That would put us at the 3rd most used light rail system in the country after Boston and San Francisco..

Edited June 14, 2009 by varider

[Henry_Ryto]

Where did the Vision Plan get those numbers from? If you multiply Norfolk's per mile cost, Virginia Beach LRT could be built for $418 million plus feeder buses. Yes, we would qualify for New Starts. One of the hitches now is the City's failure to improve our bus service to FTA standards. Virginia Beach is about to hit a Federal brick wall unless they boost bus service.

On the Gas Tax for roads, in 2005 I was working for a House of Delegates campaign and calculated that Virginia Beach alone had $1.3 billion in unfunded - but identified - roads needs. In four years since, the need should have increased....while new construction money has dwindled to a trickle. Don't try to tell me it can be done within existing revenues.

[varider]

Where did the Vision Plan get those numbers from? If you multiply Norfolk's per mile cost, Virginia Beach LRT could be built for $418 million plus feeder buses.

Norfolk's line goes through undeveloped land for about 1/2 of the trip (from Ballentine to Broad Creek) and is only elevated over a major road once (brambleton).. The Beach's extension goes through highly populated and developed areas the whole way crossing major roads such as Independence, Kempsville, Birdneck, ect.. All three of those will most likely need to be elevated to ensure the flow of traffic isn't jacked during rush hour.. This increasing the cost.

[rusthebuss]

Where did the Vision Plan get those numbers from? If you multiply Norfolk's per mile cost, Virginia Beach LRT could be built for $418 million plus feeder buses. Yes, we would qualify for New Starts. One of the hitches now is the City's failure to improve our bus service to FTA standards. Virginia Beach is about to hit a Federal brick wall unless they boost bus service.

On the Gas Tax for roads, in 2005 I was working for a House of Delegates campaign and calculated that Virginia Beach alone had $1.3 billion in unfunded - but identified - roads needs. In four years since, the need should have increased....while new construction money has dwindled to a trickle. Don't try to tell me it can be done within existing revenues.

My point is, is that the state should be giving some of our money back to this region...They take a lot from this region but put very little back into it. The money is grossly mismanged as well.

[urbanfan]

Norfolk's line goes through undeveloped land for about 1/2 of the trip (from Ballentine to Broad Creek) and is only elevated over a major road once (brambleton).. The Beach's extension goes through highly populated and developed areas the whole way crossing major roads such as Independence, Kempsville, Birdneck, ect.. All three of those will most likely need to be elevated to ensure the flow of traffic isn't jacked during rush hour.. This increasing the cost.

Norfolk will be more expensive period. It winds through downtown streets which is twice as expensive as any option. It has two bridges over rivers and one over a rail line and an elevated section over Brambleton along with a myriad of other complications. Virginia beach has a dedicated right of way through the whole project. The most expensive part would be elevating the line over large intersections, which is minimal. Even when it goes through Town Center, the line does not have to be embedded or property taken (such as the library in Norfolk) to go through. There is no doubt that per mile when adjusted for inflation, that VB's line should be much less expensive. If not, I would really have to ask what on earth the people are doing to need that kind of money. Any time you have to embed rail in concrete it is more expensive. Norfolk's is embedded from the harbor park area all the way through downtown. Not to mention the complication with digging in such a historic downtown. Nothing is clearly marked or understood. Their are surprises under every shovel full of dirt.