Charlotte Greenways and Trails

[go_vertical]

If the decision isn't made to remove it by the time widening of 77 south begins then I would imagine it would be here for the remainder of any of our lives. 

I would like to see a hybrid approach. Cap it from College to Church and sell development rights above. Then integrate from Caldwell to Independence into the street grid. Lots of land (previously existing along with newly created above the cap) returned for development. This way neighborhoods are reconnected and there is still a short feeder left for 77.

[carolina1792]

5 hours ago, midtownclt said:

Looks to be the 2 car trains we currently have now.

Not sure the freeway will go away soon.  The state leaders keeps the DOT budget so tight  that they will never spend the money to remove 277.  

I like the John Belk in this area as it is rarely congested  but I hate the merge with 77/Wilkinson and we all know most of the ramps are too short and congested.  

I think it has been proposed to redesign some of those.  This thing was built by removing space for development.  While that may have been a mistake I do not 

see that removing it anytime soon would be wise given all the space available for development downtown.  I do like the idea of selling air-rights to develop above it.

I like the benefit of having freeway access directly to the center city.  I think other cities (even some in Raleigh) would love to have direct interstate access downtown.

We fought to not have a highway through our downtown so no thanks. Instead of an 8 lane highway we kept 4 historic neighborhoods which now contain some of the trendiest restaurants and bars in Raleigh. Including one of the best food halls in the region.  We're now fighting to have NCDOT reduce speeds on the two major high speed roads in downtown  (Dawson and McDowell) and hopefully get ownership of these roads in the future. The only need for a high speed road in a city center is to get away fast which defeats the point of a city center? Shouldn't the city center be the destination and not just a pass-through?

Ultimately, Charlotte should build a park over some parts of 277 to get better land-use. 

Edited December 8, 2021 by carolina1792

[JRCLT]

Why widen 77…I bet removing belk would help congestion in 77 a lot more than widening it. Making it bigger is not the solution to the traffic on there. Congestion usually occurs south of the loop. Getting people out of there cars that is the solution. Less vehicles will reduce car usage and the freeway and therefore less traffic and less congestion.

[kermit]

I do understand the position of the folks who want to keep the Belk, but I’ll point out that is the fiscally irresponsible decision to do so. The road is 40+ years old and it will require many millions of tax dollars to keep it in useable condition (many more dollars than user fees it generates). The land generates no tax revenue and creates substantial air and noise pollution  (keeping property values lower than they could be) in adjacent residential areas. Finally, the idea of caping and providing development rights above the cap is a fine one, but the costs of building a cap that can support buildings will be much higher than a cap for park space or just  removal of the road.

Tldr: keeping the Belk (capped or not) will cost the city hundreds of millions of dollars. I don’t think Charlotte can afford that. If you want to keep the road how would you suggest we cover those costs and lost revenues?

Edit: and Ely’s story from the Urban Institute today reinforces that the state is increasingly unlikely to pay for any of the Belk’s rebuilding costs.

 

I think it is worth asking, how many drivers would continue to use the Belk if it were tolled?

Edited December 8, 2021 by kermit

[deleted account]

42 minutes ago, kermit said:

I do understand the position of the folks who want to keep the Belk, but I’ll point out that is the fiscally irresponsible decision to do so. The road is 40+ years old and it will require many millions of tax dollars to keep it in useable condition (many more dollars than user fees it generates). The land generates no tax revenue and creates substantial air and noise pollution  (keeping property values lower than they could be) in adjacent residential areas. Finally, the idea of caping and providing development rights above the cap is a fine one, but the costs of building a cap that can support buildings will be much higher than a cap for park space or just  removal of the road.

Tldr: keeping the Belk (capped or not) will cost the city hundreds of millions of dollars. I don’t think Charlotte can afford that. If you want to keep the road how would you suggest we cover those costs?

My opinion: don't cap, don't develop. Remove and make it a park. We don't need to reroute the Catawba to make this the beautiful front porch of Charlotte with trails, ponds, public spaces, etc. We'll never have the public gathering spot of a bay or river but this could be better if done right. Politicians and developers would oppose this but a beautiful park bridging Uptown and Southend would be a game changer. FWIW, I propose this in addition to the "Queens Park".  Suddenly, a city known for inadequate parks would be known for the opposite.  If NYC can devote huge swaths of land to parks (despite the most valuable real estate anywhere), Charlotte can do this.

[kermit]

1 minute ago, JBS said:

My opinion: don't cap, don't develop. Remove and make it a park. We don't need to reroute the Catawba to make this the beautiful front porch of Charlotte with trails, ponds, public spaces, etc. We'll never have the public gathering spot of a bay or river but this could be better if done right. Politicians and developers would oppose this but a beautiful park bridging Uptown and Southend would be a game changer. FWIW, I propose this in addition to the "Queens Park".  Suddenly, a city known for inadequate parks would be known for the opposite.  If NYC can devote huge swaths of land to parks (despite the most valuable real estate anywhere), Charlotte can do this.

Even this would generate better economic returns that keeping or caping the Belk (the value of adjacent property would increase). Returns would be higher from redevelopment, but maintaining some form of the status quo is the most expensive choice by far. 

[elrodvt]

3 hours ago, JBS said:

My opinion: don't cap, don't develop. Remove and make it a park. We don't need to reroute the Catawba to make this the beautiful front porch of Charlotte with trails, ponds, public spaces, etc. We'll never have the public gathering spot of a bay or river but this could be better if done right. Politicians and developers would oppose this but a beautiful park bridging Uptown and Southend would be a game changer. FWIW, I propose this in addition to the "Queens Park".  Suddenly, a city known for inadequate parks would be known for the opposite.  If NYC can devote huge swaths of land to parks (despite the most valuable real estate anywhere), Charlotte can do this.

Love the idea but suspect they're too focused on tax revenue to not want development there.

[JRCLT]

Drafted this morning:

At this point just flood it. Just make a huge canal or lake linear lake on it and make it a linear park. Sell adjacent land that can be developed taken up by the loops and buffers. Create a stitch that can connect uptown and SE. This side of the 277-77 loop is completely redundant and the city can do without it. Forget capping it. I’m sure doing that would cost as much as getting rid of it if not more due to rising material costs. I wouldn’t know but based on that assumption I could be right I don’t know for sure.

Edit: JBS has the right idea. Also! Look at San Antonio river walk. Similar concept! Better improved more accessible to everyone and with its own charisma.

[JacksonH]

On 12/7/2021 at 12:40 PM, JacksonH said:

I think Charlotte is now the 15th largest U.S. city, not 17th.  But I don't disagree at all with what you're saying here, though I think this is more than just a Charlotte issue.  I live in the 8th largest city in the U.S., and around the same time those freeways were breaking up Charlotte's core, the same thing was happening here in my city, and in cities all over this country.  Offhand, I can't think of any city that got spared except maybe DC and Manhattan.  In my city, the highway commission bulldozed right through the Little Italy community to build the Interstate 5 freeway, effectively destroying that community. Same thing with the building of I-15 and I-805.  Communities all across the nation were ripped apart like this.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that Seattle is the only city seriously trying to fix the damage and sew its urban communities back together.

Not to dismiss the concerns here about I-277 because I want that cap or urban lake or whatever replacing I-277 as much as anybody . . . but, to my point, this is not just a Charlotte issue:  This video is very timely; it was just released today.  It's the top ten most freeway-heavy downtowns in North America.  And  -- SPOILER ALERT-- you can all breathe a sigh of relief because Charlotte didn't make the list.  The fact that it didn't, though, doesn't speak well of U. S. cities.

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by JacksonH

[RANYC]

20 hours ago, JacksonH said:

Not to dismiss the concerns here about I-277 because I want that cap or urban lake or whatever replacing I-277 as much as anybody . . . but, to my point, this is not just a Charlotte issue:  This video is very timely; it was just released today.  It's the top ten most freeway-heavy downtowns in North America.  And  -- SPOILER ALERT-- you can all breathe a sigh of relief because Charlotte didn't make the list.  The fact that it didn't, though, doesn't speak well of U. S. cities.

 

Thank you for sharing!  We actually didn't even make the top 12 (he mentioned the 2 that just barely fell off the top 10 list of most free-way'd downtowns as Minneapolis and St. Paul, MN!).  Appears he measured total freeway acreage and number of interchanges downtown, and defined downtown as a 1-mile radius from a Google-appointed downtown node.  Has anyone seen the plans for the next phase of I-77 widening?  I've assumed it wouldn't really impact Uptown, but maybe it does, especially if they rework interchanges and exits.  This video gave me yet another reason to appreciate center city Charlotte.  Unlike other cities I've visited, our interstates really are quite a ways from our downtown.  Imagine an I-85/I-77 interchange less than a mile from Trade and Tryon?  Perhaps that's why we're a sunbelt city, yet with 35,000 people living in Uptown.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by RANYC

[KJHburg]

Greenways all over the region and hopefully they will all connect from Cabarrus to Meck to York Counties as part of the Carolina Thread.

Here is the Hector Henry  Greenway in Concord off Concord Mills Blvd. and the hotel cluster off Weddington Rd.    You can park at the dog park on Weddington Rd or at the Embassy Suites where I did.    (and there is 9 hotels within 2 blocks and 4 more off this same exit one the largest hotel clusters in the region outside of uptown. 

https://www.carolinathreadtrailmap.org/trails/trail/hector-h-henry-greenway-weddington-road-segment

Quite of bit of wetlands in this area near the Rocky River.  

Show me your greenway walk today.  

[KJHburg]

New greenway power walk for me today Mallard Creek Greenway in University Research Park.  Like this greenway and went under I-85.  On my goal to walk every greenway in Mecklenburg and Cabarrus County this year.  (plus benefits of huge corporate campuses to see)  And remember build out the greenway map before any freeway cap.  If anyone knows where I can email the Parks and Rec department I will tell them about that tree that split right near I-85.   Glimpse of the TIAA campus where my nephew will work starting in June and others on this board work. 

Note tall people on bikes beware going under I-85 somewhat low clearance.  Too bad we don't have a bat family that lives under here aka Congress St bridge in Austin or under I-35 in San Antonio.  Or do we? 

 

[KJHburg]

New greenways for me today in University area and on the UNCC campus.  The Toby Creek Greenway which goes through campus and there is a stream restoration project ongoing.  The Barton Creek connector which is the steepest greenway trail I have been on this area (and I was walking up from Mallard Creek Greenway)  This one runs from MC Greenway to University Place lake.  would make a great skateboard area since it is almost all downhill and you might catch air LOL.   Saw the old Hwy 29 bridge support and this has been a major road since way before settlers came to this area.  Native Americans had their trading path coming down from Concord that would have forded the creek in this area.  Notice the light rail bridge that brings the trains into the UNCC campus.   You can literally bike on the greenway from SF homes along Mallard Creek Rd through Univ. Research Park to the UNCC campus.  

On to some new ones next week and beyond.  Overall our Meck greenways are great they just need to be all connected together like in Raleigh and Cary.  there is a ridge line in University area dividing the Catawba River watershed with the Yadkin Pee Dee river watershed east of Charlotte and Concord.  

Lots of photos warning.  3 different greenways today  Toby Creek, Mallard Creek and the Barton Creek Connector. 

 

[nicholas]

8 hours ago, KJHburg said:

New greenways for me today in University area and on the UNCC campus.  The Toby Creek Greenway which goes through campus and there is a stream restoration project ongoing.  The Barton Creek connector which is the steepest greenway trail I have been on this area (and I was walking up from Mallard Creek Greenway)  This one runs from MC Greenway to University Place lake.  would make a great skateboard area since it is almost all downhill and you might catch air LOL.   Saw the old Hwy 29 bridge support and this has been a major road since way before settlers came to this area.  Native Americans had their trading path coming down from Concord that would have forded the creek in this area.  Notice the light rail bridge that brings the trains into the UNCC campus.   You can literally bike on the greenway from SF homes along Mallard Creek Rd through Univ. Research Park to the UNCC campus.  

On to some new ones next week and beyond.  Overall our Meck greenways are great they just need to be all connected together like in Raleigh and Cary.  there is a ridge line in University area dividing the Catawba River watershed with the Yadkin Pee Dee river watershed east of Charlotte and Concord.  

Lots of photos warning.  3 different greenways today  Toby Creek, Mallard Creek and the Barton Creek Connector.

 

Wow I had no idea 29 had been shifted over so far.  That's a good 200 ft or so from the current route.  Does anyone know if that's just an anomaly due being an ideal location for a bridge, or was 29 rebuilt to its current alignment?  Driving down old 29 through Kannapolis and Landis and China Grove feels like you're stepping back many many decades in time, it's crazy how much it has been rerouted throughout the state over the years.

[KJHburg]

8 hours ago, nicholas said:

Wow I had no idea 29 had been shifted over so far.  That's a good 200 ft or so from the current route.  Does anyone know if that's just an anomaly due being an ideal location for a bridge, or was 29 rebuilt to its current alignment?  Driving down old 29 through Kannapolis and Landis and China Grove feels like you're stepping back many many decades in time, it's crazy how much it has been rerouted throughout the state over the years.

that is the old old route 29 when they widening it and built the newer bridges they are where the current road is.  that is probably from the 1920s or so the road from concord to charlotte. 

[slipperypete]

10 hours ago, nicholas said:

Wow I had no idea 29 had been shifted over so far.  That's a good 200 ft or so from the current route.  Does anyone know if that's just an anomaly due being an ideal location for a bridge, or was 29 rebuilt to its current alignment?  Driving down old 29 through Kannapolis and Landis and China Grove feels like you're stepping back many many decades in time, it's crazy how much it has been rerouted throughout the state over the years.

The change happened between the 1938 and 1951 aerials here. Still looks 2 lane at that point, but it was probably straightening out this section of road for safety and improving/replacing the bridge.  It looks like the land was was part of a big chunk of Alexander family land. The parcel containing the former bridge was conveyed in 1956 (the deed restrictions at that time included prohibitions on using the land for a road house or fish camp, among other uses).   That document indicates it is transferring a portion of an older Mary Alexander holdings, defined in this 1906 document.  She is presumably the namesake for the nearby Mary Alexander road. This all suggests to me that the highway was in a right of way going through the Alexander land. I don't see a document arranging the movement though.   

Here's the home of the family patriarch, now lost. But based on its position S of US 29, the Alexander land was on both sides of the highway (not sure if it was contiguous).   

Interestingly, the parcel on the SW corner of Tryon & Mallard Creek Church has a transfer from 1937 with a reference to the "present new channel of Mallard Creek," indicating that it is shown on a plat map from 1928. That suggests the bridge shown in the 1938 aerial must have been built in the late 1920's. Unfortunately there isn't a map book reference for that, so it would take some real digging to find the map in the records. Too bad - I love the old maps. 

[videtur quam contuor]

I recall that house in the early 70's while at UNCC. The much smaller campus then had a rear entry/exit onto Mallard Creek Church Road and It was a memorable landmark on what had been farmland conveyed to University holdings, and the campus as it was at that time. I cannot say when and why it disappeared.

[KJHburg]

^^ Good research.  Here is a map of the Toby Creek Greenway which shows where I was walking the other day.  If you live intown take LYNX to the UNCC station and start walking on the Toby Creek greenway to Mallard Creek Greenway then up the steep Barton Creek connector if you like back to the LYNX at JW Clay station.  if you only walk greenways intown come out to the suburbs.  (and there is a Cook Out right off the greenway if you need a shake and burger!) 

https://www.mecknc.gov/ParkandRec/CapitalProjects/Documents/MCPR-TobyCrkGwy-Winter2020.pdf

[KJHburg]

another day another greenway.  This time up northern part of the county at  the McDowell Creek greenway in Huntersville and Cornelius.  Parking available at Birkdale Village and connects the 2 towns.  On my tour of every greenway in Meck county.  I will say this the people of Charlotte Mecklenburg are a lot friendlier on the greenways than they are on the streets.   Even a glimpse of I-77 closer to Westmoreland Rd  Great neighborhood connections to multiple neighborhoods and homes near or backing up to greenways are more valuable than comparable ones I can tell you that.  Even a storm retention pond for the Birkdale development makes for a home for ducks and birds. 

Map here  https://www.mecknc.gov/ParkandRec/CapitalProjects/Documents/MCPR-McDowellCrkGreenway-Winter2020.pdf

and remember build out the greenway map before any freeway cap!   That is 4 new greenways this week onward to my goal of walking on every greenway in Meck and Cabarrus this year.   This one is nice you can walk on the greenway then dine at Birkdale Village.  Last photos are of a pedestrian bridge to the Northpointe Office Park back over to Birkdale Village. 

 

[tozmervo]

Phase 

21 hours ago, KJHburg said:

another day another greenway.  This time up northern part of the county at  the McDowell Creek greenway in Huntersville and Cornelius.  Parking available at Birkdale Village and connects the 2 towns.  On my tour of every greenway in Meck county.  I will say this the people of Charlotte Mecklenburg are a lot friendlier on the greenways than they are on the streets.   Even a glimpse of I-77 closer to Westmoreland Rd  Great neighborhood connections to multiple neighborhoods and homes near or backing up to greenways are more valuable than comparable ones I can tell you that.  Even a storm retention pond for the Birkdale development makes for a home for ducks and birds. 

Map here  https://www.mecknc.gov/ParkandRec/CapitalProjects/Documents/MCPR-McDowellCrkGreenway-Winter2020.pdf

and remember build out the greenway map before any freeway cap!   That is 4 new greenways this week onward to my goal of walking on every greenway in Meck and Cabarrus this year.   This one is nice you can walk on the greenway then dine at Birkdale Village.  Last photos are of a pedestrian bridge to the Northpointe Office Park back over to Birkdale Village. 

Phase II of McDowell Creek opened pretty recently - do you know if you walked the old & new parts? 

[KJHburg]

On 1/10/2022 at 10:54 AM, tozmervo said:

Phase 

Phase II of McDowell Creek opened pretty recently - do you know if you walked the old & new parts? 

 

I walked from Birkdale Village to almost Westmoreland Road I did not know it went any further according to the maps on the Meck greenway webpage. 

[KJHburg]

In Huntersville today so checked out a new greenway for me.  Torrence Creek greenway off Gilead Road.  This greenway goes through a major wetland area lots of little bridge and culverts and evidently quite a few beavers.  In the summer I could see this greenway as very buggy.  Anyway nice walk behind nice homes and even some apartments.  Thought I saw an eagle flying which would not be unusual since they are commonly seen along the Catawba River which is not that far away but could have been a hawk soaring over the greenway and creek.    Now 6 of the 17 different greenways I have walked and will complete my goal of walking on every greenway in Meck county by mid year if not a lot earlier.   And remember build out the greenway map before any freeway cap.  I can tell you people in this county love their greenways and Meck does a good job with them just need to get them all connected like Raleigh and Cary.

One thing about walking these greenways for me it reminds me of the Mecklenburg County my mom grew up with in the 1940s/50s a much more rural county with 1/5 or less of the current population.      ( I have printed out all the greenway maps and keep them handy in case I am near one that I can quickly walk)   

Get out and walk a greenway this Saturday or cross country ski on one on Sunday!

 

[KJHburg]

another day another greenway the Briar Creek greenway from Mint Museum to almost Providence Rd.  This greenway needs to be extended northward to Plaza Midwood (Charlotte Country Club straddles Briar Creek) and further southward though Myers Park Country Club staddles the creek.  Anyway it can be extended outside of those 2 country clubs if that is not possible.  Catawba Land Conservatory owns some of the property as the Eastover Ridge Preserve.   Very popular with dogs and their owners especially today I think the ratio was 1:1 today. 

Mostly mature hardwoods that will be beautiful in the spring summer and fall.  Saw new contemporary house being built at the end of the greenway.   This would be a nice summer walk under those tall hardwoods.  Parking available at Mint Museum Randolph Rd. 

Lots of photos. 

[Munson79]

Love this tour of local greenways. We have done some city hopping over the past few years and have seen what other cities (Seattle, Austin, SF) have done to connect neighborhoods through trails. Can't wait for the Thread Trail to connect Cabarrus County with Mecklenburg County and into other areas. 

[ajfunder]

On 1/15/2022 at 3:12 PM, KJHburg said:

another day another greenway the Briar Creek greenway from Mint Museum to almost Providence Rd.  This greenway needs to be extended northward to Plaza Midwood (Charlotte Country Club straddles Briar Creek) and further southward though Myers Park Country Club staddles the creek.  Anyway it can be extended outside of those 2 country clubs if that is not possible.  Catawba Land Conservatory owns some of the property as the Eastover Ridge Preserve.   Very popular with dogs and their owners especially today I think the ratio was 1:1 today. 

Mostly mature hardwoods that will be beautiful in the spring summer and fall.  Saw new contemporary house being built at the end of the greenway.   This would be a nice summer walk under those tall hardwoods.  Parking available at Mint Museum Randolph Rd. 

Lots of photos. 

Your last photo demonstrates how easy it would be to put an underpass under Randolph. Biking through the medical complex is pretty easy as is right now, and there is a sidewalk all the way through until a proper trail is built. Can't wait for the extension to Central under CSX.

This section had so much backlash when first proposed and now it is embraced. Go figure. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by ajfunder