Charlotte Greenways and Trails

[kayman]

12 minutes ago, ajfunder said:

Your last photo demonstrates how easy it would be to put an underpass under Randolph. Biking through the medical complex is pretty easy as is right now, and there is a sidewalk all the way through until a proper trail is built. Can't wait for the extension to Central under CSX.

This section had so much backlash when first proposed and now it is embraced. Go figure. 

Most NIMBYs are shortsighted morons.

[KJHburg]

I think when Meck county builds greenways they are great they just need to be all connected like Raleigh.  This greenway Briar Creek should be extended all the way to past Central Ave.  I realize it might be hard to go through Charlotte Country Club and Myers Park club which both straddle this creek but imagine walking from Elizabeth all the way on this greenway to Sharon Road.  

[kayman]

2 hours ago, KJHburg said:

I think when Meck county builds greenways they are great they just need to be all connected like Raleigh.  This greenway Briar Creek should be extended all the way to past Central Ave.  I realize it might be hard to go through Charlotte Country Club and Myers Park club which both straddle this creek but imagine walking from Elizabeth all the way on this greenway to Sharon Road.  

It's going to happen. However, Charlotte is much more densely developed around the proposed greenway alignments.  As a result, like with the Little Sugar Creek Greenway Connector in from the East 7th Street to East 10th Street, Mecklenburg County had to find an alternative path of connecting the two links of the Little Sugar Creek Greenway in Midtown to Belmont neighborhoods. 

[JRCLT]

Mecklenburg County is sorely lacking in the greenway department and the need for the buildout is great. Personally would use it if they were connected and more accessible! Biking also would be much easier too in a more comfortable environment.

Mecklenburg Greenway map:
https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=9f53644603674953908070bf06e4652c

[InSouthPark]

9 hours ago, JeanClt said:

Mecklenburg County is sorely lacking in the greenway department and the need for the buildout is great. Personally would use it if they were connected and more accessible! Biking also would be much easier too in a more comfortable environment.

Mecklenburg Greenway map:
https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=9f53644603674953908070bf06e4652c

Based on the speed of building out the greenways, I will be long retired before I see much of any connectivity in South Charlotte.  We moved to to our current house with expectations of the Green Rea to McMullen extension to be fully done by now (Construction was to start spring 2020).  Fast forward two years and the only work that has been done is about a dozen stakes in the ground marking where the trail might go for about 25ft... and the project scrapped 0.8m of the greenway extension because County Day got mad and wouldn't give the county access to a sliver of their property.   Still in "Design" phase.  LOL

Edited January 18, 2022 by InSouthPark

[JRCLT]

13 hours ago, InSouthPark said:

Based on the speed of building out the greenways, I will be long retired before I see much of any connectivity in South Charlotte.  We moved to to our current house with expectations of the Green Rea to McMullen extension to be fully done by now (Construction was to start spring 2020).  Fast forward two years and the only work that has been done is about a dozen stakes in the ground marking where the trail might go for about 25ft... and the project scrapped 0.8m of the greenway extension because County Day got mad and wouldn't give the county access to a sliver of their property.   Still in "Design" phase.  LOL

Mecklenburg County realigned that greenway and stated it was due to NCDOT budget impacts that there was no timeline for construction. That greenway was in partnership with NCDOT.  

https://publicinput.com/McAlpine51toJ 

It is truly a shame NCDOT’s budget has been so negatively affected.

[InSouthPark]

8 hours ago, JeanClt said:

Mecklenburg County realigned that greenway and stated it was due to NCDOT budget impacts that there was no timeline for construction. That greenway was in partnership with NCDOT.  

https://publicinput.com/McAlpine51toJ 

It is truly a shame NCDOT’s budget has been so negatively affected.

It was realigned due to County Day and Green Rea protesting it.  I was in the public meetings and stay in contact with the Senior Planner of the extension.  Country Day did not want it and would not sell the connecting land. Green Rea residents protested it with giant signs in their yard for a year.  The city had the option of "taking" the land but since those "no non-rich people near our neighborhood please" didn't want it, they dropped it.  Trust me...I live within earshot of County Day Middle.  

It even says right on the page:

August 10, 2021 Update: Mecklenburg County Park and Recreation is providing an update on the McAlpine Creek Greenway project (Johnston Road to Green Rea Road). Due to difficulty acquiring the necessary real estate to make a greenway trail connection to Green Rea Road at this time, the Department is exploring a new trail alignment that terminates the greenway north of Highway 51/Pineville-Matthews Road (at the proposed trailhead parking lot). This alignment will include an access to Ryder Avenue, consistent with one of the options shared at the December 2020 virtual community engagement meeting (see map below). We will use any remaining project funding that would have paid for the connection to Green Rea Road to improve access to the greenway trail.

As of now: this extension will go up for bid in the fall with completion late 2023, a full 2 years late.  

 

[JRCLT]

It was realigned due to County Day and Green Rea protesting it.  I was in the public meetings and stay in contact with the Senior Planner of the extension.  Country Day did not want it and would not sell the connecting land. Green Rea residents protested it with giant signs in their yard for a year.  The city had the option of "taking" the land but since those "no non-rich people near our neighborhood please" didn't want it, they dropped it.  Trust me...I live within earshot of County Day Middle.  
It even says right on the page:
August 10, 2021 Update: Mecklenburg County Park and Recreation is providing an update on the McAlpine Creek Greenway project (Johnston Road to Green Rea Road). Due to difficulty acquiring the necessary real estate to make a greenway trail connection to Green Rea Road at this time, the Department is exploring a new trail alignment that terminates the greenway north of Highway 51/Pineville-Matthews Road (at the proposed trailhead parking lot). This alignment will include an access to Ryder Avenue, consistent with one of the options shared at the December 2020 virtual community engagement meeting (see map below). We will use any remaining project funding that would have paid for the connection to Green Rea Road to improve access to the greenway trail.
As of now: this extension will go up for bid in the fall with completion late 2023, a full 2 years late.  
 

Yes, that is why it was realigned. I think you misunderstood what I meant. The budget impacts is why construction itself has no timeline in other words it has not started and there’s no set time to break ground as of yet. That is what I meant to say. If I’m not mistaken even that realigned greenway isn’t complete.

[lit]

McAlpine Creek goes right through Carmel Country Club too. I wasn't sure how that would work

Edited January 20, 2022 by lit

[InSouthPark]

20 hours ago, JeanClt said:

Yes, that is why it was realigned. I think you misunderstood what I meant. The budget impacts is why construction itself has no timeline in other words it has not started and there’s no set time to break ground as of yet. That is what I meant to say. If I’m not mistaken even that realigned greenway isn’t complete.

I read your comment as it was realigned due to the budget.  Sorry!

Anyways, as I mentioned, the re-alignment is basically done.  I got word from the project planner yesterday that it should go out for bid in fall 2022. 

[InSouthPark]

12 hours ago, lit said:

McAlpine Creek goes right through Carmel Country Club too. I wasn't sure how that would work

It won't.  Carmel County Club was on the community calls and they want nothing to do a greenway.  It will 100% not happen.  If you look at some future county greenway maps, it bypasses the CC.  You would have to get on Carmel and then into Montibello to get back on it.

The city nor county own any of that land around the CCC and then Emily Maynard is not going to  allow a greenway to go through their 10 acres.  Only chance for the CCC land is eminent domain.  They were one of the drivers behind blocking the extension to Green Rea and had multiple banners proudly protesting it on the golf course property.

This was the "old" map that had the greenway ending at Green Rea.  Now it will end at Ryder, 0.8m south of Green Rea.

[RANYC]

52 minutes ago, InSouthPark said:

It won't.  Carmel County Club was on the community calls and they want nothing to do a greenway.  It will 100% not happen.  If you look at some future county greenway maps, it bypasses the CC.  You would have to get on Carmel and then into Montibello to get back on it.

The city nor county own any of that land around the CCC and then Emily Maynard is not going to  allow a greenway to go through their 10 acres.  Only chance for the CCC land is eminent domain.  They were one of the drivers behind blocking the extension to Green Rea and had multiple banners proudly protesting it on the golf course property.

This was the "old" map that had the greenway ending at Green Rea.  Now it will end at Ryder, 0.8m south of Green Rea.

What reasons were cited for not wanting the greenway?  I find it odd that a community organization would actively protest against something akin to a park.  Sure, perhaps you'd be indifferent because you have plenty of your own green spaces, but to set out to sabotage it is really striking to me.  Are they concerned a public amenity in such close proximity, and the heterogeneity that might invite?  That question perhaps is unfairly accusatory, but seriously, what concerns did they communicate?

[CLT2014]

50 minutes ago, RANYC said:

What reasons were cited for not wanting the greenway?  I find it odd that a community organization would actively protest against something akin to a park.  Sure, perhaps you'd be indifferent because you have plenty of your own green spaces, but to set out to sabotage it is really striking to me.  Are they concerned a public amenity in such close proximity, and the heterogeneity that might invite?  That question perhaps is unfairly accusatory, but seriously, what concerns did they communicate?

Green Rea is very affluent area with some homes north of $3 million in there.... the residents claimed they were concerned about:

• An increase in foot traffic from other neighborhoods along Carmel Road trying to walk or jog down Green Rea to get to the greenway. Green Rea does not have any sidewalks and that was not in scope for the greenway plan (sample image below) and residents claimed it would make near collisions more likely. 
• An increase in vehicle traffic in their community by being the nearest access point to the greenway for the neighborhoods along / north on Carmel Road. With no designated parking lot, cars would park on "their streets." Sample image of street layout + access point below. Residents say they already deal with traffic from having the middle school at the end of the street, but the school at least has designated parking and a campaign to "be a good neighbor," including annual gifts / treats made by students for the neighbors. 

The thing the neighborhood didn't publicly say... but is likely a factor, is the greenway connection would put them within a .2 mile walk of the Shadowlake subdivision which is the least affluent single family neighborhood along Carmel Road between 51 and Fairview. Via Carmel Road, Shadowlake is a little over a mile away / can't get to them. I don't think residents in these $1 million+ homes want Shadowlake walking through their neighborhood. Entrance to Shadowlake subdivision is last image below.

No sidewalks:

No parking:

 

Corner of Shadowlake neighborhood on Carmel Road that is the "first impression" of Shadowlake as you drive by. They haven't said this, but I suspect Green Rea residents are thinking "oh no, this neighborhood will now have easy access to ours with the greenway" given how passionate they are about keeping others out / no greenway.

 

Edited January 20, 2022 by CLT2014

[CLT>]

Some shots of the XCLT Trail coming together between E 26th & N Brevard  through Lintmen's

[InSouthPark]

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

Green Rea is very affluent area with some homes north of $3 million in there.... the residents claimed they were concerned about:

• An increase in foot traffic from other neighborhoods along Carmel Road trying to walk or jog down Green Rea to get to the greenway. Green Rea does not have any sidewalks and that was not in scope for the greenway plan (sample image below) and residents claimed it would make near collisions more likely. 
• An increase in vehicle traffic in their community by being the nearest access point to the greenway for the neighborhoods along / north on Carmel Road. With no designated parking lot, cars would park on "their streets." Sample image of street layout + access point below. Residents say they already deal with traffic from having the middle school at the end of the street, but the school at least has designated parking and a campaign to "be a good neighbor," including annual gifts / treats made by students for the neighbors. 

The thing the neighborhood didn't publicly say... but is likely a factor, is the greenway connection would put them within a .2 mile walk of the Shadowlake subdivision which is the least affluent single family neighborhood along Carmel Road between 51 and Fairview. Via Carmel Road, Shadowlake is a little over a mile away / can't get to them. I don't think residents in these $1 million+ homes want Shadowlake walking through their neighborhood. Entrance to Shadowlake subdivision is last image below.

It's this, but with less "no shadowlake" and more "no anyone not wealthy". 

All their other points were debunked in the meeting.  Country Day kept bring up "crime" that the greenway would bring.  City countered that crime rates on greenways are very very low.  Worried about parking.  City said there would be no trailhead parking, no parking signs, and cars towed if they did.  They said that wasn't enough.  They said it would create more traffic.  City..."there is no parking, therefor no traffic".  They said that wasn't enough.   The roads aren't safe to walk on.  City...residents regularly use the road to walk / walk the dog.  Well...we do it but it isn't safe because of the school traffic.  

So the school creates traffic messes because of their poor setup for drop off pickup in their Range Rovers, but that is OK because they school sends them gifts.  The school even had the nerve to say, cars lined up along the road for pickup and block the road.  What if EMS had to use the road more because of the greenway?

The bottom line is they don't want anyone that doesn't live in their neighborhood, or that doesn't drive their kid in CD in the Range Rover, to enter Green Rea at any time. 

I REALLY wish they would have used eminent domain and taken the sliver of land anyways. That is exactly the kind of thing it is for.  Even on the call, the city said they have NEVER had this kind of response to a greenway build out. 

 

 

[deleted account]

I'm fine with a neighborhood declining a greenway connection (I wish they wouldn't but it should be their call, parking is a legitimate concern in many instances). I do think restricting parking to residents and guests is a better idea though. Regarding CCC, if the proposed greenway route is on their land, it should be up to members to decide if they want it. Again, I absolutely wish they would allow it. I use greenways an average of 5 days a week and they are awesome. That trail through the Lintmen's property is going to be great. I do think neighborhoods and businesses who oppose are shortsighted. Read the real estate listings for any greenway adjacent neighborhood, they are considered HUGE amenities and definitely increase home values. As my wife knows, I maintain the land behind my 3 acres in Weddington for easy access and passage by others, unfortunately most neighbors oppose paths behind their homes. 

[CLT2014]

20 minutes ago, JBS said:

I'm fine with a neighborhood declining a greenway connection (I wish they wouldn't but it should be their call, parking is a legitimate concern in many instances). I do think restricting parking to residents and guests is a better idea though. Regarding CCC, if the proposed greenway route is on their land, it should be up to members to decide if they want it. Again, I absolutely wish they would allow it. I use greenways an average of 5 days a week and they are awesome. That trail through the Lintmen's property is going to be great. I do think neighborhoods and businesses who oppose are shortsighted. Read the real estate listings for any greenway adjacent neighborhood, they are considered HUGE amenities and definitely increase home values. As my wife knows, I maintain the land behind my 3 acres in Weddington for easy access and passage by others, unfortunately most neighbors oppose paths behind their homes. 

I think in a traditional neighborhood a greenway increases home values, but not sure the Green Rea area is going to see houses go from $1.8 million to $1.9 million due to a greenway nearby. The real estate appeal in there is partially the privacy / being a dead end street full of mansions and fellow Range Rover people. If you value walkability / community, your price point is more than enough to afford a big house in Dilworth, Myers Park, Eastover, et... but those locations are less tucked away. Lots of executives and people that want to be left alone in Green Rea, homes owned in a trust, et... IMO they should purchase in a gated neighborhood if their privacy is that critical. Plenty of gated options in the Charlotte area.

Edited January 20, 2022 by CLT2014

[deleted account]

3 minutes ago, CLT2014 said:

but not sure the Green Rea area is going to see houses go from $1.8 million to $1.9 million due to a greenway nearby.

Good point! Though I suspect LSCG and Freedom Park have a significant impact on home values in a very expensive area, as you acknowledged this is something different. Regarding gated communities, they really say something about the inhabitants (not something good, IMO).

[InSouthPark]

1 hour ago, JBS said:

I'm fine with a neighborhood declining a greenway connection (I wish they wouldn't but it should be their call, parking is a legitimate concern in many instances). I do think restricting parking to residents and guests is a better idea though. Regarding CCC, if the proposed greenway route is on their land, it should be up to members to decide if they want it. Again, I absolutely wish they would allow it. I use greenways an average of 5 days a week and they are awesome. That trail through the Lintmen's property is going to be great. I do think neighborhoods and businesses who oppose are shortsighted. Read the real estate listings for any greenway adjacent neighborhood, they are considered HUGE amenities and definitely increase home values. As my wife knows, I maintain the land behind my 3 acres in Weddington for easy access and passage by others, unfortunately most neighbors oppose paths behind their homes. 

Where is greenway parking a legitimate concern (real question)?  There are dozens of access points without parking along McMullen and McAlpine and I never see cars parked illegally.  I have been using those two greenways for a decade plus and never see cars parked at the access points where it says no parking.  Does that mean it never happens, no.  But it ain't often.

[deleted account]

26 minutes ago, InSouthPark said:

Where is greenway parking a legitimate concern (real question)?  There are dozens of access points without parking along McMullen and McAlpine and I never see cars parked illegally.  I have been using those two greenways for a decade plus and never see cars parked at the access points where it says no parking.  Does that mean it never happens, no.  But it ain't often.

I have personally (legally) parked in neighborhoods among other cars that clearly belonged to people visiting the greenway. Not every access point has a lot. That said, we agree...no parking signs should work (I advocated for them in my comment). I still think neighborhoods should have the right to decide if they want access. If there is no parking allowed, the lack of access is overwhelmingly punishing the residents and not other visitors. 

[JRCLT]

I was going to ramble on but I only have two things to say:

1.) Wealth buys privilege and while less wealthier communities were bulldozed by interstate and highway expansions (which benefited wealthier people who tend to commute by car), this area is so pressed on not even allowing a greenway that takes up minimal space and doesn’t appeal to the concerns they stated.

2.) Why can’t it go through CCC… When it comes to crime which is probably why they are most concerned with, crime will find them regardless of this greenway. It does not have to have access to their neighborhood if they don’t want access and only simply run through it along the creek. It would makes sense if they would rather not have it run along their street as it would be right at their doorstep versus the wooded buffer. The reluctance to work with the County is unfounded and it is rather unfortunate.

[slipperypete]

Just now, JeanClt said:

2.) Why can’t it go through CCC… When it comes to crime ...

We should use anti-gun control reasoning:  

Blocking Greenways is not going to stop trespassers from accessing green spaces. Green space is going to get into the hands under the feet of law-breakers.  You're only making life more difficult for the law-abiding greenspace users.   

[JRCLT]

We should use anti-gun control reasoning:  
Blocking Greenways is not going to stop trespassers from accessing green spaces. Green space is going to get into the hands under the feet of law-breakers.  You're only making life more difficult for the law-abiding greenspace users.   

LOL.

[InSouthPark]

11 minutes ago, JBS said:

I have personally (legally) parked in neighborhoods among other cars that clearly belonged to people visiting the greenway. Not every access point has a lot. That said, we agree...no parking signs should work (I advocated for them in my comment). I still think neighborhoods should have the right to decide if they want access. If there is no parking allowed, the lack of access is overwhelmingly punishing the residents and not other visitors. 

If the city owned that 215' sliver of land across the creek, there would be a greenway going there.   They might have a discussion with the neighborhood, but they would have built it with input. It has been in the works for a decade or more.  But since CD and CCC wouldn't sell, they had to go through the motions and ultimately bail because it wasn't worth a legal battle for it.

There are more neighborhoods that would use that than just the folks of Green Rea.   Montibello, Montibello Crossing, Carmel Valley, Quail View, the 100+ Carmel South patio/town homes (which are connected to Green Rea) are all < 0.5m from Green Rea.    Now they will have to walk down Carmel, which has crap sidewalks on super busy road, for almost 2m to Ryder. 

IMHO, the greenway is for the greater good of the ENTIRE county.  

Sorry...end rant.  This has been a huge pet peeve for me.  Also sorry for anyone who lives on Green Rea and is reading this. I always seemed to run out of dog poop bags right around your "Say No to Green Rea Greenway" signs.  Apologies.   Maybe if I had a greenway to run on, I wouldn't have had that issue.

[deleted account]

17 minutes ago, InSouthPark said:

If the city owned that 215' sliver of land across the creek, there would be a greenway going there.   They might have a discussion with the neighborhood, but they would have built it with input. It has been in the works for a decade or more.  But since CD and CCC wouldn't sell, they had to go through the motions and ultimately bail because it wasn't worth a legal battle for it.

There are more neighborhoods that would use that than just the folks of Green Rea.   Montibello, Montibello Crossing, Carmel Valley, Quail View, the 100+ Carmel South patio/town homes (which are connected to Green Rea) are all < 0.5m from Green Rea.    Now they will have to walk down Carmel, which has crap sidewalks on super busy road, for almost 2m to Ryder. 

IMHO, the greenway is for the greater good of the ENTIRE county.  

Sorry...end rant.  This has been a huge pet peeve for me.  Also sorry for anyone who lives on Green Rea and is reading this. I always seemed to run out of dog poop bags right around your "Say No to Green Rea Greenway" signs.  Apologies.   Maybe if I had a greenway to run on, I wouldn't have had that issue.

Well, as a frequent user and huge proponent of greenways, I share your frustration. Sincerely. 

Regarding the poop, aren't you hardening their opposition by doing this? Not to mention, kind of a dick move IMO (and I'm a dog owner/lover).